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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-10-10 19:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
l0rd carlos wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

- It was given to a for-profit enterprise. SB is a for-profit website. They make plenty of ISK doing their normal operations.

The "Bring Solo Back" podcast got ISK and ships for doing PvP and talking about it.
They made profit.

It's hard to draw a line with those community projects.
I'll draw some lines for you:

Don't give out anything that can undock unless it's a part of a CCP organized event.
Don't take actions that directly increase the profits of an existing enterprise (e.g. don't tie item giveaways to Blink usage).
Giving out plexes to media people is ok.

Not that hard really.
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-10-10 19:46:57 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Yeah, this was a serious, serious problem as well. There should not have been a CCP endorsement that SOMER is not a scam and has operated completely honestly for its entire history. I don't actually believe the research to verify that was done, but it was wrong even if it was.


So if Sommerset Mahm ever or anyone with the roles over there decides to cash in their chips, quit EVE and take Blink for everything they can does that mean that any customer losses would be reimbursed by CCP since the good behavior of Blink has been guaranteed by CCP?
Aurthes
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2013-10-10 19:47:32 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
ShadowandLight wrote:
Here's the million dollar question

what else has CCP secretly given out to pilots, communities, player run organizations?



Secretly...nothing. And what we've given out as rewards or prizes doesn't generally come in big bundles which is one of the key reasons eyebrows were raised over this incident.

It's worth keeping in mind that Internal Affairs has complete oversight over every single item spawned or transferred on our server and monitors all staff account activity closely as is their purpose.


I think a problem with IA is that while they may work to make sure that individual developers (and I guess GMs) don't do anything for their personal benefit, they aren't a counter to CCP itself enriching/favoring one set of players over another.

You would think that maybe the CSM could assist with this, but the CSM seems to only be called in after the screw-up is in effect. (and even then, some CSM members are just shills)
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#84 - 2013-10-10 19:47:42 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

- It was given to a for-profit enterprise. SB is a for-profit website. They make plenty of ISK doing their normal operations.

The "Bring Solo Back" podcast got ISK and ships for doing PvP and talking about it.
They made profit.

It's hard to draw a line with those community projects.

Except that the podcast is presumably written for entertainment purposes, to the benefit of everyone who wants to read it. Anybody, even those who don't play EVE, can go listen to the podcast for free. In that way, they're providing a community service for free.

If they had received ISK and ships for just doing PVP without the podcast...that's more like what's happening there. SB is being rewarded for running a business in game.

How long until CCP rewards the ISK doublers? Because that's basically the same thing.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#85 - 2013-10-10 19:47:58 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:

Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out? List all rewards publicly?

That’s it for now, let us know your thoughts.


Items such as the memorabilia things in the "time capsule", would reward people with a permanent reminder of their impact on the EVE world.

Those things like the "Piece of Steve", relating to the first Titan shot down, or the "Assassination Contract - Mirial", or the "Band of Brothers Director Key". Souvenir items that don't do anything much ingame, beside exist.

Those sorts of items would be perfectly fine, to reward people for contributing.

Or inspace monuments, such as was done in the past, e.g. the Jita Monument originally commemorated a competition between players, yes ?

Monuments and souvenir items, people would have far fewer issues with, than things that have a definable ISK value.

This pretty much exactly, the reward of being recognized and in a way immortalized with the items you have, or monuments, or even names of planets etc is one of the best ways to show appreciation.

Things like that would be worth so much more in terms of memories and feeling accomplishment than a regular item you sell for some ISK. I've been joking since years that my personal ultimate goal would be to have a planet named after me, and I'm sure that alot of people who dedicate themselves making things to try and improve and build the community (not for profit only) would feel very rewarded by things like that.

/c

Are all the planets in the ammar system named? If not name one after cribbs... I mean dust bunnies got to name a planet

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2013-10-10 19:48:02 UTC
First off , Somer Blink didnt get these ships, the individuals who work for SB did ... that doesnt mean that is ISK in SB pocket..

Second .. they do contribute to the EVE community by backing almost every single contest or competition that people do..

Third.. I like the idea that CCP gives away something cool , even an ingame item... somethign not everyone has.. No where does it say CCP is obligated to maintain the value of "rare" items.. especially for an item they previously stated for an item that would be gifted to people as thank you items...

Fourth ... Haters and Cry Babbies , most people wanna cry about how much somer makes, what about the cost of running their site?? what about allll the free stuff they give away not only on their site , but to other people who run events and what not ...
SB makes the money they do , cuz they are smart and found a way to make money, while letting people gamble and basicly get ships for less then they could ingame, with a chance...
Kuda Timberline
Alea Iacta Est Universal
Blades of Grass
#87 - 2013-10-10 19:49:22 UTC
Well, for all those jumping up and down screaming like a 2yr old "IT ISN'T FAIR"
...seems you got what you wanted.

Quote:
For the time being we are pausing all plans for rare in-game rewards to select third party contributors.


...and this is why "we" can't have nice things.

"We" being folks who spend extra time to create content for this community. I don't see this game going far if people stop engaging and just start sitting in station ship spinning.


Kuda Timberline

Co-host Capstable Podcast
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-10-10 19:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
I'm glad this lead to a response and a change of policy. I'm still bitter about the spawned scorpions still existing.


As far as further rewards: Stick to out of game items, promotions on your website, perhaps gametime (added directly to account, NOT PLEXes).

Character- or account-bound cosmetic items are okay, as long as such mechanism exists. Also they need to be destroyed when the character is sold.
Cameron Freerunner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-10-10 19:51:02 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:

4. A Dev endorsed a player run lottery and specified that it was totally legitimate. CCP endorsements of player run businesses must never be allowed to happen. Ever. By endorsing one group over another, he has potentially crippled all of the competitors. Who would risk their ISK with anyone else?

Do you also think that giving Red Vs. Blue advertisement was wrong?

Competitors like E-Uni will have harder time.

A reasonable question, but I don't know anything about this, and so will not tender an opinion.
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#90 - 2013-10-10 19:51:03 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If fan-sites etc are rewarded with isk, be it in the form of rare ships or whatever, could it not lead to a situation whereby some folk will learn how to milk-abuse the rewards system?


Not unless we design a bad system :).

But seriously, that's not going to be a problem. We're not novices when it comes to providing incentives. We've had a fansite program since forever that rewards registered fansites that meet our standards with free accounts and we've gotten pretty good at knowing what constitutes a worthy contribution there. Also just so it's clear we don't award straight ISK.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#91 - 2013-10-10 19:51:22 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

- It was given to a for-profit enterprise. SB is a for-profit website. They make plenty of ISK doing their normal operations.

The "Bring Solo Back" podcast got ISK and ships for doing PvP and talking about it.
They made profit.

It's hard to draw a line with those community projects.
I'll draw some lines for you:

Don't give out anything that can undock unless it's a part of a CCP organized event.
Don't take actions that directly increase the profits of an existing enterprise (e.g. don't tie item giveaways to Blink usage).
Giving out plexes to media people is ok.

Not that hard really.

I was talking about the line between for profit and non profit player events/communities/websites/whatever.

If you say items you can't undock, do you also mean not tradable? Or why does the undocking part matter? And 1B ISK ship has the same value as a 1B monocle, no?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-10-10 19:52:24 UTC
I think regarding why/how/to who and what-not others have said all I want to point out. Regarding how this whole thing came to be two things come into my mind:

  1. You guys at CCP is pretty good at coming forward with acknowledging problems and/or discussing them in a pretty open way. Kudos for that.
  2. You guys continue to make mistakes that almost anyone with any sort of media training or background can tell you "this will backfire when it comes out". This is a weakness CCP have. Do you have people that are working with such things (much like the most awesome Dr. EyjoG is regarding the economy)?
Kate stark
#93 - 2013-10-10 19:53:50 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:

4. A Dev endorsed a player run lottery and specified that it was totally legitimate. CCP endorsements of player run businesses must never be allowed to happen. Ever. By endorsing one group over another, he has potentially crippled all of the competitors. Who would risk their ISK with anyone else?

Do you also think that giving Red Vs. Blue advertisement was wrong?

Competitors like E-Uni will have harder time.

A reasonable question, but I don't know anything about this, and so will not tender an opinion.


i was under the impression they catered to separate niches, and i'm unaware of any group that fills the same niche as RvB at all.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Kalindra Chan
#94 - 2013-10-10 19:53:56 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
The two aspects of this that bug me are:
- It was not announced at the time. This makes it seem sketchy, especially since the value of the IWS in player eyes is based on how many there are.
- It was given to a for-profit enterprise. SB is a for-profit website. They make plenty of ISK doing their normal operations.

When I kill sleepers and sell their delicious gooey insides, that's my "normal operations" and I make plenty of ISK doing it.

So why exactly are they getting rewarded any more than me? It's not like they're providing a community service for free the way E-UNI or Chribba or any number of other people are.

I would be totally okay with stuff, even in-game stuff, being given to people who donate their time for the benefit of the whole community, as long as it's given out in the open.

But giving stuff to people who have as their primary goal making money off the stupidity of other EVE players? Yeah, no. That's basically saying, "Here. You're so awesome at making money that we're going to give you EVEN MORE money."

exactly this!

I'm a trap!
Livonia Velorea
The Fiendish Pixies
#95 - 2013-10-10 19:55:44 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Livonia Velorea wrote:
Out of game only or vanity trash like:

- A piece of Steve
- Band of Brothers Director Access Key
- Lost reminder to pay sov bill


What is the differents between those items and a IWS?


They have the same essence in that they are both a vanity item but you can't fly them for a start, they have less demand, they hold more sentimental and intrinsic value to the recipient, they offer near no discernible gameplay, they are a more appropriate reward. (in my opinion atleast)

Would it not be a bigger reward by CCP and the community as a whole if you were imortalised in the game you love by an ingame trinket, than a simple ship that alot of people get? Perhaps it's not practile or more likely it's reserved for more unique and rarer circumtances but I still thing something of this nature would be more fitting.

I pew you too! <3
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#96 - 2013-10-10 19:56:15 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
That's what we're pausing until we have a better system the community feels better about; All selective give-aways of rare in-game items.

Um... well isn't that the core of the problem? Making them rare is inherently going to make them extremely valuable. Selectively giving them away is favoritism.

Doesn't anybody notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-10-10 19:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
l0rd carlos wrote:

If you say items you can't undock, do you also mean not tradable? Or why does the undocking part matter? And 1B ISK ship has the same value as a 1B monocle, no?

We needed a line in the sand. I provided it. Just that simple.

If people want to put monocles on their furries, I don't give a crap. If people want special unique ships in a spaceships sandbox, I give a crap.

Hence the line in the sand; Don't give out anything that can undock unless it's a part of a CCP organized event.
It's up to the community at large if they agree with this position.
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#98 - 2013-10-10 19:57:09 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:

4. A Dev endorsed a player run lottery and specified that it was totally legitimate. CCP endorsements of player run businesses must never be allowed to happen. Ever. By endorsing one group over another, he has potentially crippled all of the competitors. Who would risk their ISK with anyone else?

Do you also think that giving Red Vs. Blue advertisement was wrong?

Competitors like E-Uni will have harder time.

A reasonable question, but I don't know anything about this, and so will not tender an opinion.


Interesting angle actually. Because even when we design a more transparent system around this, it's not ever going to make everyone completely content all the time. But we'll always try to be as fair as we can.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#99 - 2013-10-10 19:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Crowley
CCP Guard wrote:
We recognize that gifting rare in-game items of potential ISK value proactively to select third-parties, whether as prizes for them to hand out or as a personal thank-you, can have implications no matter how well-meaning you are. We realize that for example in the IWS reward situation, a line was crossed in many people’s minds despite there being certain similarities with previous gifting events. Where the line of acceptability lies is something we need to work out together before we move forward.
Sounds good. And yes, of course the value of the in-game things you hand out matters. In principle the same arguments apply to gifts of lesser value, but if the value is perceived as insignificant then nobody will really bother much.

Quote:
Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out? List all rewards publicly?
Answering all those questions in order:

  • Out-of-game things are IMO the least problematic gifts so I think they should be preferred as give-aways.

  • Non-transferable in-game items are absolutely acceptable too if 2 conditions are met: They are truly non-transferable, e.g. just taking the IshuScorp off market and contracts would not be enough, the thing would really need to be "character-bound" or something the character doesn't even own like a monument. And the second condition is it can't have significant in-game use. I feel a soulbound IshuScorp would be comparatively useless enough to still be ok, a soulbound capital ship or T3 would already cross the line. Obviously this is a matter of personal opinion what constitutes useless. Generally speaking the more cosmetic and the less useable the better as far as in-game stuff is concerned.

  • I see no compelling reason to entirely stop handing out personal rewards, as long as you take extra care of the sandbox's integrity when you do so. Btw, giving a little in-game goodie to everyone showing up at a RL meeting is OK in my book, it's close enough to "available to everyone" so I don't consider it favouritism. And prizes for tournaments and similar events that are available to everyone and which have clear rules are OK too of course.

  • I don't see how "expected ISK value" will work too well. There aren't thousands of 3rd party community service people, so if the item is something specifically created for them it will always be a rarity and therefore valuable if it can be traded. If the item is something common and cheap then where's the reward? I mean if you had given Somer employees a Rifter each then certainly no-one would've bothered to protest but it would've been a rather silly reward. If it's in-game and rare and transferable then it will always have a high ISK value.

  • I think handing out rewards in bulk so early receivers can't cash out doesn't really solve any of the core issues. If you stick to either out-of-game or "useless", "worthless" in-game stuff then this point is a non-issue anyway.

  • IMO if you stick to out-of-game and "useless", "worthless" in-game stuff a list isn't strictly needed, though it would certainly be a good thing to have even in this case cause transparency generally is a great thing and builds trust. For non-useless or non-worthless in-game stuff a public list is a necessity IMO, but as I said you shouldn't hand out these kinds of items as personal rewards in the first place.
Vahl Ahashion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-10-10 19:59:26 UTC
In general I don't see any problem with handing out rewards providing its in the open which was the only problem I really had with what happened. That said CCP should ask themselves whether a for profit organisation which makes as much isk as Somer is the kind of organisation most deserving of receiving gifts.