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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#541 - 2011-11-01 15:36:04 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

1) You are right in that unless you have the bandwidth (which you do on specific bonused ships) you will use combat drones but then you are back at the beginning. The DPS of the drones is offset to the fact that you are out of range to bring your blasters to bear. And if you throw on a second web (which is the freaking point of this whole problem) in order to hold a FLIPPIN' BATTLESHIP/BATTLECRUISER in place then you're tossing out boosting mods that your opponent has no need to do. You're throwing out a SEBO, disruptor, or any other mod because you already are filled with a MWD, cap booster, and scram... this means to be viable even against a shield tanker you need to have a minimum of 5 midslots. The diemost has 3. Brutix has 4. Mega has 4.

MWD, cap booster, scram, web... and for a cruiser you have drop one.

2) Yes but you are also missing the weapon bonus as well, the Tempest's bonus gives it just as much DPS. and you're also throwing in a red herring... Gallente have to train more in drones than a minnie pilot. Even counting in training time missiles takes about 2-3 weeks to be a viable additional weapon system. Not really a huge deal, you'll be running heavies and not cruise on them.

1. When your strategy is to drop right on top of your target (see my other post - and feel free to flame), you don't need a MWD. Also, assuming that you've trained up your energy management skills, you don't need a cap booster - not in a buffer tanked Gallente gunship. The Thorax, Brutix, and Megathron, with a full rack of T2 neutrons, are cap stable, without any mods/rigs. At close range, you don't need a sebo, and when your opponent does less DPS and has less tank than you, you don't need a tracking disruptor. So, yes, there is room for a scram and two webs.

2. The Gallente gunboats get weapon bonuses, as well. And, if you don't train up your Minmatar pilot in drones, you've gimped his DPS further. When the Gallente and the Minmatar pilot have the same SP in guns and the same SP in drones, the Gallente pilot does more damage - because the Gallente ship has more guns and more drones. And 2-3 weeks training in missiles by the Minmatar pilot means 2-3 weeks training that the Gallente pilot can apply to more guns, tank, drones, speed, etc. You don't get those extra 2-3 weeks for free, just because you are Minmatar, you know. :)
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#542 - 2011-11-01 15:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Vincent Gaines wrote:


Just a couple counter points:

1) With no web bonus the Gallente pilot will be using web drones to help keep you still so that offsets any extra drone DPS, while the minnie pilot still uses combat drones. If a Gallente pilot uses combat drones there is separate tackle or you're no risk of running.

You remember that the only web drones are heavy drone size? Roll

Pretty much pointless in what they were supposed to do..

Sizeof Void wrote:

Gallente blaster boats attempt to jump right on top of Minmatar ships, pin them down, and kill them before they can run away. If you miss blaster range on the jump, then you just get out.


Oh yes. I used to think that way too, three years ago back when my main was still flying exclusively gallente... Oh and please tell me how do you plan on "getting out" when youre scrammed and being kited from 20km-ish.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#543 - 2011-11-01 15:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
i skimmed through this but couldnt see this so ill ask.

is void t2 ammo also getting fixed so it would be worth using?

edit, you seamed to have missed it from this line in the blog
Quote:
Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus

OMG when can i get a pic here
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#544 - 2011-11-01 15:45:30 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:

the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.

What approach? You don't jump a Gallente blasterboat outside of blaster range and try to approach a Minmatar ship. It isn't going to happen because the Minmatar ship is usually fast enough to keep its distance.

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#545 - 2011-11-01 15:46:39 UTC
Great with a long waited re-balancing of hybrids.
The cap reduction and tracking buff combined with hybrid ships getting a small
navigation boost is well deserved.

I am however a little concerned with a across-the-board buff to fitting that we
might see all hybrid ships neglecting smaller tier hybrids if those have no clear
advantage.
Are the tracking and other advantages of smaller tiers sufficient, and have you
made sure no single ships will suddenly be able to fit guns that will make it OP?

Also in my opinion the long range shield hybrid ships deserve a little extra...
Ships such as the Moa and the Ferox could easily do with losing a utility hi-slot and
gaining an extra needed medslot. The combat conditions today make it near
impossible to maintain an advantage of range without either more staying power (tank)
or theability to use supporting modules such as TCs, Webs without reducing the tank
they have now...
Also as the Moa and Ferox are both pretty low in the food chain I don't
foresee any issues even if people attempts ubertanking.

Pinky
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#546 - 2011-11-01 15:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Smoking Blunts wrote:


is void t2 ammo also getting fixed so it would be worth using?

edit, you seamed to have missed it from this line in the blog
Quote:
Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus


Yea I find it psychologically fascinating how CCP still keeps buffing the OTHER ammo in the dev blog thats supposed to be about buffing gallente..

The ammo thats in the most need of fixing is the T2 BLASTER ammo, CCP. Remove the tracking penalty. Pretty please.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#547 - 2011-11-01 15:49:45 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.


Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

You should not have to dual web a battlecruiser if you REQUIRE it in order to actually hit it.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#548 - 2011-11-01 15:50:13 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.


Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

You should not have to dual web a battlecruiser if you REQUIRE it in order to actually hit it.


Youre being trolled, dude.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#549 - 2011-11-01 15:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
Sizeof Void wrote:
Gallente blaster boats attempt to jump right on top of Minmatar ships, pin them down, and kill them before they can run away. If you miss blaster range on the jump, then you just get out.If you get scrammed outside of blaster range, you launch ECM drones and then get out, or launch damage drones and perhaps go down fighting
No, you are tackled and ******. Minmatar boat got ECM drone too, so don't come speak about drone here.

Sizeof Void wrote:
At close range, Gallente blaster boats do more damage than Minmatar AC boats
The main issue is : actually, NO, or maybe a BIT more DPS for a LOT LESS range, in medium size gun, a blaster do more DPS than an AC UNDER 4000m ONLY!. You forget : blaster need capacitor, where AC not, and AC can CHOSE DAMAGE TYPE !!!! so maybe on EFT a blaster boat do more damage, but in real, it's very close, and VS a T2 gallente or caldari boat, it's a way less.

Sizeof Void wrote:
Gallente blaster boats typically have more tank,
a bit more yes, but more signature, bad slot balance, T2 gallente boat got a BIG explosive hole, where minmatar got perfect shield resist, a loljoke tank bonus, ect, ect.

Sizeof Void wrote:
The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage
lol, no, speed is not the only advantage minmatar got. And i want a blasterboat whith 7 med slot too pliz.

Add : a blaster boat have to fight ALWAYS at web/scramble range, so can't run after falcon, or logistics, ect, what a minmatar can do. So no, actually, having 10% more "EFT" DPS and 15% more EHP don't compensante.
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#550 - 2011-11-01 16:06:34 UTC
Well i cooled down a bit and reread blog. Maybe ccp is looking at this whole stuff under wrong angle. See the way i see it - blasters were bad since after nanonerf - maybe even sometime before that.
For instance it maybe a good idea to revisit Zulupark answer thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=905941&page=1#22 and see that there are almost as many questions about tempest as there are about blasters. and thats 2008 - projectiles (and lasors before them) got buffed after that if memory serves me right.

Why does blaster weapons suck? why did they sucked then and persieved horrible even after proposed changes? well reason for that is change of surroundings. No ships have value just by themselves - its all about how and what other players fly. Now in anything other than 1-on-1 situations ranges less then 15 km are not viable. even 1-on-1 nowdays presume that even if you are one - your hostiles are most likely not. Anyway over the years ships were becoming fatter and fatter in terms of ehp - now with widespread logistics its even worse - you may aply damage indefinitely to no result. Along with that both minmatar and amarr got range boosts - now having dosen of ships with 30-40 km range on close range guns. With caldari - situation is worse - god knows why but their long range weapons hit better than close range ones, they also fit better - so they too have no problems with dealing damage on 50-70 km (damage output suck, but its caldari)
So with ships getting 2-3 times wider in terms of ehp and ranges of battle going from 15-20 to 40-50 km (comand ships + recons are seen everywhere ) - there are no place for active tanked, close ranged boats anymore.

I do understand that several years of unadressed balance problems are quite hard to solve in 4 month time - but seeing that you usually do 1 big rebalance once in 3 years - half measures you show - dont impress me one bit. Game have changed a lot over the years - now is as good time as any to start changing outdated and no longer relevant stuff. I think that would not be a pure pr sign like most of this new things you show us, but also very interesting and thus positive to the game. Bring back diversity of eve we have enjoed sometime before that - not 1-2 fotm bc out of 8, 3-4 fotm bs out of 12 and 1 frigate that better than others etc. Make us revisit old fits, tactics and doctrins looking for new ways in new surroundings.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#551 - 2011-11-01 16:06:50 UTC
No issues, just our thanks :)

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#552 - 2011-11-01 16:14:13 UTC
While these changes seem like a good start I still don't see a reason to fit out my caldari gunboats (aside from the harpy) with anything but projectiles (I haven't finished crosstraining minnie yet). At the operational engagement range limit (arguable 100km) I don't see a need to fit rails over arty's since enemy frigates will get a warp in or burn in range before the dps potential of rails outperforms the alpha ability of arty's. Once the enemy gets in AC/scorch range (30-40km or so) they will just get transversal and the long range guns won't track anyways.

Blasters on the Caldari optimal bonused hulls work out ok but AC's are still the more versatile weapon system and have similar dps characteristics for smaller (moving) engagements. Two huge problems with Caldari gunboats are that they have immense sigs (a byproduct of their tank), and are comparatively slow. So they take more damage compared to an armor tanker (and have less raw ehp) and struggle to keep up with moving enemies.

Even with these changes, aside from frigates and the lol 100km sniper cormorant, I don't really see a reason to fit hybrids over projectiles
ConXtionS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2011-11-01 16:21:13 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.

What approach? You don't jump a Gallente blasterboat outside of blaster range and try to approach a Minmatar ship. It isn't going to happen because the Minmatar ship is usually fast enough to keep its distance.

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.



I guess I have never had that opportunity... It seems that the enemy moves and that jumping right on them is difficult because there is no LEAD in the jump system to account for thier movement. So lets suppose you are in warp for 30 seconds, by the time you get there, you are WELL out of range cuz the mim ship was scooting right alone while you tried to JUMP on top of him.

Now, I will agree, if you find a pilot that is NOT MOVING, and doesnt fire his guns at you, and his tank doesnt turn on, Gallente ships will POUND HIM every time.. Other than that, blasters are difficult at best to fly.

Just my 9 dollars and 43 cents
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#554 - 2011-11-01 16:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
Sizeof Void wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.

What approach? You don't jump a Gallente blasterboat outside of blaster range and try to approach a Minmatar ship. It isn't going to happen because the Minmatar ship is usually fast enough to keep its distance.

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.


The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that you don't fly blaster boats outside of EFT. Sure, it would be nice to be able to land right on top of the target... but how often does that happen? Damn rarely, unless you're talking about 1:1... and how often does that happen outside consensual combat?

When looking at small-fleet (and hell, medium/large fleet) pvp, you're almost never conveniently on top of your target, you're typically 10-30km from the next one. If you're saying blaster ships should just warp out at that point, you're saying that blaster ships aren't currently viable for non-1vs1 pvp... which is sort of the point here.

Added: you also advocate not fitting MWD (because, apparently, you magically land on top of targets). Not sure what to say here, other than look bewildered. That sort of setup can work in precisely one situation: station camping. Outside that, flying a (non-frigate) blaster boat without MWD is suicide. Which you'd know, if you actually flew the things in real pvp.
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#555 - 2011-11-01 16:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
Sizeof Void wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.

What approach? You don't jump a Gallente blasterboat outside of blaster range and try to approach a Minmatar ship. It isn't going to happen because the Minmatar ship is usually fast enough to keep its distance.

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.


Oh YEAH, We always find a lot of minmatar ship at 0m/s inspace waiting for a blaster boat. Or it's very easy to land in a fight whith a 5km precision, or target uncloak under 5km at gate... Add that the time to lock the target (cause everybody know the scan res of blasterboat is awesome).
Stop joking.
Quantes IQ
GRIM MARCH
#556 - 2011-11-01 16:35:47 UTC
CRUOR VENATIO wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
After reading through most posts here and being a cross trained Gallente pilot myself here is my two cents:

Firstly I would hate to see all ships become replicas in terms of their capabilities , God forbid how boring Eve would be, its important to keep the racial differences and FFS stop comparing the Brutix to the Hurricane , every race has there own Rock Stars !

I am double Amarr and I love the look of the ships but I don’t fly them at all because I don’t like their capabilities , so I trained Minmatar and Gallente cause of their niches that appeals to me. I think the same should be said for Gallente pilots ...fly the role of the race, if you don’t like it train for something else.

Gallentes role or niche is short range fights (between 0and 10 km) and then the drones. When you are caught in that 10 km range against a blaster boat the chance of getting away or winning the fight should be 20% or less. The 0-10 km is the Gallente Blaster zone.
I do believe the damage done by blasters should be significantly more to solidify the Gallente Blaster Zone.

The second very obvious issue is how to get your enemy in that zone of 0-10 km. In high sec or gate camping this wouldn’t be that much of a big deal. So in a way Gallente blaster boats already rule High sec and gate camps !
But with conventional null sec fleets and tactics it causes a problem for the Gallente blaster boats.

I love that Eve video “Real spmething ” where the Gallente fleet gets melted into scrap metal by a Amarr fleet and then a Gallente frig pilot breakes away and fly directly towards the Amaarr fleet enabeling the gallente fleet to warp in at 0 and burn the Amarr alive ! That’s what appeals to me ...now whether that is practically possible in 50% of the scenarios , I honestly don’t know. But I think as far as Blaster boats go we need to look more at tactics to get into that Zone than to try and replicate other races roles. I do believe that Gallente is in a disadvantage here when it comes to null sec warfare. (at the same token it should be very difficult for them to be able to get in that zone to balance things out overall).

So here is an idea in its infant stage Big smile

CCP why not create a drone that you as a blaster boat can warp to ? You release the drone or five drones and send them to the enemy ...once in range you warp to the drone and fleet can warp to you. Of course the drone stats need to be balanced out to make the task of the drone to reach its destination hard and relatively easy for enemy ships to shoot it down. The bigger the gallente fleet the more drones to shoot down by the enemy.....think this might be an option to enable blaster boats to get into blaster zone whether you are a fleet or solo pilot ...and its in line with Gallente culture .

Hope my idea can solve some problems for us..or maybe look at a new gallente frig with desent speed and a brutal tank to make that video mentioned above more a reality than anything else.


I recon this might resolve a lot of problems ...we need something out of the box - THIS IS OUTSIDE THE BOX ! Its unique and with the right balancing it could work well ...increasing the web range or increasing the amount will nullify anyone in that range ....to overpowered ...Gank up the blaster and have a look at alternatives to get into that death zone Gallente was built for ...Oh and stop naging and bitching at CCP - bunch of wet panties !


Why doesnt this look like a viable option .....It adresses almost all the conserns?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#557 - 2011-11-01 16:50:16 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.


Why do people not realize gallente ships have a max of 5 midslots? Throwing in dual web is not possible unless you're in a hyperion or domi, and even then that's your full rack.

You should not have to dual web a battlecruiser if you REQUIRE it in order to actually hit it.


Youre being trolled, dude.

These days it's hard to tell :(

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#558 - 2011-11-01 16:51:39 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:

The SLIGHT increase in DPS of blasters does not come close to making up for all of their downsides (Lack of range, cap sucking weps, Ammo consumption, ammo size, lack of lack of lack of)

Increase the DPS by a lot and you are on to something. If I can get into range and pin them down my blasters should MELT THEIR FACE. I have also seen some pretty sturdy Minny tanks so I don't know what you are on about.

The increase in DPS which comes from the ability to fit a higher grade of blaster is not "slight". For example, upgrading from T2 medium electrons to neutrons is a 60% increase in damage. And a 30% reduction in cap means that a Gallente blaster boat doesn't need a cap booster to remain cap stable, even with a full rack of blasters and magstabs.

Ammo consumption and size is something with which I've never had a problem - with hybrids or projectiles - esp. if I do not need to carry cap booster charges. So, I can't speak to this issue.

I've fit some sturdy Minmatar tanks, as well, but Gallente tanks still have the edge, in most cases. This is due in no small part to the larger structure HP on Gallente ships (For the tier 1 Brutix, 1300 HP more than the tier 2 Hurricane), typically augmented by the 60% across-the-board resists provided by the ever-popular DC II - which incidentally provides an additional 15% boost to armor resists, without a stacking penalty.

Armor tanking a Minmatar ship compromises its speed advantage, and its resists favor EM over Kinetic, often leaving a sizeable 25% hole in Kinetic for hybrid ammo to exploit, since the Explosive resist hole is always plugged first. The shield tanked Minmatar ship always plugs its EM resist hole first, often leaving a sizeable 20% hole in Thermal, again which is exploited by hybrid ammo. By contrast, the Gallente amor tank plugs the Explosive resist hole first, leaving much less exploitable 35% holes in Thermal and Kinetic.
Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#559 - 2011-11-01 16:53:42 UTC
blasters itself are not really not so much in need of boost, except maybe tracking -a little-. this is also depending on what ship you fly. i.e. taranis rapes stuff easily, i don't see it having difficulties hitting anything. megathrons seem to burn cruisers down pretty easily too. ETC.

also

major problem with caldari and gallente gunboats is OTHER races and game mechanics than just blasters. Even their speed is somewhat adequate. The point is that it doesn't benefit anyone to go close balls deep to get on tackle range. It's just easier to keep stuff webbed and pointed from far with minmatar and gallente recons and in some cases fast tackle while keeping your dps further away. Not to mention artillery which makes you want to keep at range. (drakefleets aren't the best fleet setup out there tbfh get a clue). And then there's capital and cov ops hotdrops. If you go small gang or solo pvp and tackle something at gate there's always possibility something comes out of nothing with cyno trololo. I strongly believe giving cyno a delay or whatsoever would benefit blaster ships a lot.

and then

just generally boosting some random gallente ships (like helios and lachesis wtf they work just fine) you should also remember caldari blaster boats are painfully slow ass bullshit. Not to mention their dps is crap. What needs boost most is caldari ships with blasters. Not megathron. Instead of boosting random **** in haste (normal ccp style) I'd suggest giving it some thought first and let some dude who knows what he'd doing do it. This is just my personal preference but if some hybrid boats would need just anything I'd start from ships like rokh, hyperion, deimos, eagle and tengu, even deimos is a bit so so, it's just bad because ishtar is imba, who'd want to use deimos.
Hex'Caliber
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2011-11-01 16:54:02 UTC
Kraven Drakenovic wrote:
What i dont understand is why there hasnt been any change to railgun tracking... 6 mil in rails bs 5 and my mega still cant track for peanuts against MISSION L4 Battle ships... its supposed to be the best tracking vessel in the gallente fleet alaas sadly more damage might be a good idea but not really useful if that high damage salvo just gives him a nice breeze ( by high dmg i mean higher than current)Evil and im left killing battle ships with hammer II's in a turret boat... care for a little explanation on that Ccp. Cause if the mega struggles to mission track the main reason im loathe to fitout a hyperion for missioning least the mega gets a tracking bonus


If you cant track L4 bs's its your sp or fitting at fault, perhaps you should stop trying to orbit them at 5km when using rails. If I can track cruisers upto 15kms away, you sure as **** can.