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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#7241 - 2013-11-04 15:45:28 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.


yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster


And couldn't possibly be a fact that people are upping supply to meet the likely demand come Rubicon.

Nah, the sky's falling and the world is doomed, and all marauders will self destruct the first time they are launched come the expansion.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7242 - 2013-11-04 15:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.


Veldspar recently became cheaper ---> nerf thullium.

Totally conclusive thought process.
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#7243 - 2013-11-04 15:56:12 UTC
Considering how my paladin and vargur costed me less than 900 mill, I'd say that Marauders will see a lot of use in the days post Rubi. That might change later, but the first days, Marauders will be the flavor of the month.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7244 - 2013-11-04 16:03:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.


Good I am saving 40 mil on each of my kronos.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7245 - 2013-11-04 16:56:36 UTC
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7246 - 2013-11-04 17:21:55 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.


yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster



I have seen countries reliability notes droped for far smaller changes :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#7247 - 2013-11-04 18:15:42 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.


i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7248 - 2013-11-04 18:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

8km is close enough to slowboat to the gate. And my short tests on SiSi suggest that fitting only MJD is rather mistake. Dual prop is way to go and while some may be butthurt about it, I'm cool with the concept.

Quote:
And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

Honestly, I don't know what behind logic was employed in CCP when they were setting new speed. I only claim that while the nerf is noticeable it's not crippling the ship.

And why Vargur got least from rebalancing and new bonuses? Maybe because it already was the best to begin with?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7249 - 2013-11-04 18:52:42 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.


That's lovely until you start talking about autocannons that barely have any optimal as-is. I already said it before: Extending falloff by 5,000% isn't particularly helpful if your optimal only increases by 5km.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7250 - 2013-11-04 18:57:18 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.


That's lovely until you start talking about autocannons that barely have any optimal as-is. I already said it before: Extending falloff by 5,000% isn't particularly helpful if your optimal only increases by 5km.

I think that it would be actually way OP. I started to train for autocannons when I saw and fell in love with this flat dps curve. If bastion's falloff bonus was improved at the cost of optimal it would be lasers getting shafted.
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7251 - 2013-11-04 19:53:59 UTC
[Paladin, Rubicon]
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Large Armor Repairer

Large Micro Jump Drive
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion module

Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

(yes, this all fits without implants)

Range with AN Multi in bastion: 69.60km + 46.80km
DPS: almost the same as Kronos with null, or Vargur with faction ammo (difference is only a couple of per cent)
Tracking: doesn't matter, you only shoot at approaching targets
Damage types: doesn't matter, just move to the Amarr Empire

This is all I wanted to say.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7252 - 2013-11-04 21:21:05 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.

Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.



Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all.

Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost.

For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS
For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS
For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps.
For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps.


A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.

Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right?

You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7253 - 2013-11-04 21:29:19 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:

You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?


I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7254 - 2013-11-04 21:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Julie Thorne wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?


I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..


Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.

Also I get 82km Optimal Falloff (wow talk about being pedantic lawl) using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.

I really don't see why you'd want to fit blasters on an unbonussed hull, why would YOU even assume that?

Actually you know what Read this
Quote:
A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.


Emphasis mine. KRONOS.

sheesh.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7255 - 2013-11-04 21:57:07 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Julie Thorne wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?


I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..


Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.


You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.

Anize Oramara wrote:

Also I get 82km Optimal using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.


Setup please.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7256 - 2013-11-04 22:05:56 UTC
Julie Thorne wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Julie Thorne wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?


I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..


Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.


You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.

Anize Oramara wrote:

Also I get 82km Optimal using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.


Setup please.

And you are still serious? Dang.. there has to be some kind of miscommunicaiton here we're talking about the kronos, NOT the vargur WRT Null ammo.


Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again:
1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7257 - 2013-11-04 22:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Julie Thorne
Anize Oramara wrote:

Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again:
1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.


That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. You are wrong.

Edit: put out some flames :)
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#7258 - 2013-11-04 22:17:54 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Julie Thorne wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Julie Thorne wrote:
[quote=Anize Oramara]
You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?

Are you even serious?


I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..


Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.


You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.


The implication from the quote is that the dev feels that bastion range bonuses are fine because one ship gets good range with one gun/ammo type. The addition of " 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null." Indicates that rails, autocannons, artillery, pulse lasers, beam lasers and missiles are all being ignored [in the balance of the bastion bonus that affects all marauders] because blasters work as intended with one ammo type.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#7259 - 2013-11-04 22:40:13 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
I experienced both old and new, a report about which you ignored or just missed.

For your convenience, Kronos' performance (measured by time to complete or by ticks) on test server is almost as good as Machariel's on TQ. Vargur's improvement is marginal but it already was almost on par with Mach.

If you insist on numbers, during typical good mission my Kronos on TQ earned 10-12 mil ticks while on SiSi it gets in 15-16 mil range without breaking a sweat.
Kusum Fawn wrote:

Do these missions include salvage? How does the TQ Kronos match against the SiSi Kronos.

Where can the data for these mission/bounty tick averages be found ? They are supposed to be averages of numerous mission completions and salvage and module sales correct? are they running the same set of missions? and how do they compare within the same mission?

My bounty ticks are very different for running (serpentis/Gurista) worlds collide vs (EOM) gone berserk. what mission set is represented in your bounty averages?

I stated clearly, I measure by tick or by time to complete the mission. I don't count salvage nor LP conversion. Yes, they are part of total ISK/hr but they are not direct indicator of ship's performance.

I do not understand the matching question. I thought the numbers above are what you asked for.

As for ticks, I said typical good, so no averaging, only general good stuff but without extremes.

When I could I tried to compare the same missions but my notes are incomplete, so I can vouch only for Gone Berserk and for WC(serp/guri). SiSi vs. TQ times are respectively, 8 vs.9 minutes and 31 vs. 39.


I went back and looked for what you were talking about, is this it? From page 342
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3791291#post3791291

You were using a Sisi Kronos vs a Tq Machariel, Do your TQ times reflect salvage? Or do you not salvage with the Kronos?
What are your TQ Kronos times like?
The post from page 342 states that you were using a mach and not a Kronos.

It is half of what i was asking about though it seems that you have answered the second part in the quoted section.

-"When I could I tried to compare the same missions but my notes are incomplete, so I can vouch only for Gone Berserk and for WC(serp/guri). SiSi vs. TQ times are respectively, 8 vs.9 minutes and 31 vs. 39"

The sisi times are using Bastion correct? and are you using the same ship for each?

I also agree that Salvage / LP conversion are not to be normally counted for ship(a1) to ship(a2) comparisons but salvage is an important part of the equation when comparing ship(a1) to ship (b1)

ex Kronos(sisi) vs Kronos (TQ) does not need salvage/lp
Vargur (sisi) vs Machariel (TQ) should include salvage in their completion times (as well as reshipping time) or include a lowered mission value because of lost/ignored salvage profits.


Also i wasnt asking that question directly to you [hmskrecik] though i am happy that you attempted to answer it. It was to Anize Oramara, of whom i also would like to read some stats from.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7260 - 2013-11-04 22:40:30 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.


i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq.


Was brought up some 170 pages ago or so.

CCP is concerned with overpowered pulse laser fits, that's why the optimal bonus is above a meta 14 officer TC, yet falloff is below tech 2.