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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5741 - 2013-10-16 12:45:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


These are now live right?
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5742 - 2013-10-16 12:47:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
    • [/list]


    Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5743 - 2013-10-16 12:49:04 UTC
    The Djego wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
    • [/list]


    Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff.


    That would leave us with another broken ship they would have to fix for pvp.
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #5744 - 2013-10-16 12:51:03 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.


    • You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you?
    I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ.

    And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used.

    And I have done testing too.
    If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff).


    But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half..

    Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right?

    I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times.

    I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that.
    Hairpins Blueprint
    The Northerners
    Pandemic Horde
    #5745 - 2013-10-16 12:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


    well kinda not ... i was hoping for something difrent ... : (

    if paladin have soooo much range swap this bonus for tracking.

    and the idea for sniping bs is good for aliance tournament not kinda solo low/null sec :((

    i was hoping to web come back to kronos and paladin : ' | you just force them to be sniping platforms, and they are much more use as brwl close on TQ Cry

    will see hot it will spin, any way they will be much better for pve in null now i guess ....
    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #5746 - 2013-10-16 12:53:40 UTC
    Debora Tsung wrote:
    Octoven wrote:


    Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.


    Unless ofc. a real sniper ship enters the field and destroys your glass cannon with the first volley.

    Also, Interceptors + Your allign time.

    Lets presume you're indeed 80km away from your target.

    An intercepor can go how fast? 5.5km/s? maybe even more? Average.
    I've seen the "how to build the fastest ship in EVE" Video. Shocked

    That means in average You've got 14.54 seconds to kill that interceptor... lets say 18 seconds because it has to accelerate first (see, I'm nice). You'll have to target it first and in Your Nado You'll need Arties to hit that far...

    No chance. The interceptor is under your guns before the targeting cycle is finished. You warp either immediately or not at all.

    Not that big of a problem for the Marauder, I guess.


    First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far
    Sarmatiko
    #5747 - 2013-10-16 12:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?

  • The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.

    • Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change one digit in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km?

    This is pure "Quality of Life" change but for some strange reason you prefer to just ignore it.
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #5748 - 2013-10-16 12:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
    • [/list]


    Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff.


    That would leave us with another broken ship they would have to fix for pvp.


    Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion, it is not like I didn't post multiple times how to make them a more interesting option compared to pirate hulls without makeing them OP or force them into extreme small niches.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Elindreal
    Planetary Interactors
    #5749 - 2013-10-16 12:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Elindreal
    I did a search for resist stacking and didn't find anything so forgive me if this has been brought up.
    Is the bastion module resist bonus stacking with our standard resistance modules or will it go in thr damage control stack?

    I figure there's a chance to go with the damage control stack since this is a highly specialized module. But you never know >.<
    Hairpins Blueprint
    The Northerners
    Pandemic Horde
    #5750 - 2013-10-16 12:55:40 UTC
    Sarmatiko
    Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change [b wrote:
    one digit[/b] in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km?


    noctis is spec salavge ship, it is for Salvage Only i guess thats way ...
    Hairpins Blueprint
    The Northerners
    Pandemic Horde
    #5751 - 2013-10-16 12:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
    The Djego wrote:
    [

    Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.


    i kinda agree, i would prefer to leave them as they are now on TQ Roll
    Shantetha
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #5752 - 2013-10-16 13:00:43 UTC
    Sarmatiko wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?

  • The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.

    • Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change one digit in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km?

    if you were to actually get a response on this it would be something about how the changes are focused on + pvp not + pve(clearly suppose to be -pve) so there is no need to change the tractor bonus...
    Sarmatiko
    #5753 - 2013-10-16 13:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
    Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
    noctis is spec salavge ship, it is for Salvage Only i guess thats way ...

    Where is the word "tractor" in that "Salvage only ship"? It should salvage fast, not just cover all dungeon with 96km tractor without even moving. Why industrial command ship Orca have 250% tractor range bonus?
    Please don't use artificial reasonings to justify strange dev behavior on this matter.
    marVLs
    #5754 - 2013-10-16 13:03:35 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    .
    .
    .


    Nope, they will be still useless in Incursions (i mean no one will choose them when they can get pirate BS's), You can argue as much as You want but every incursion community will tell You that, sorry Roll

    Vargur and Kronos are still bad with range.

    Golem - no point fitting torps, it's dead.

    Other changes are ok, but overall some of them (especially Vargur) are not in pair with good Paladin for their suppose.
    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #5755 - 2013-10-16 13:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.


    • You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you?
    I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ.

    And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used.

    And I have done testing too.
    If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff).


    But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half..

    Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right?

    I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times.

    I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that.


    To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

    Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

    Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5756 - 2013-10-16 13:06:00 UTC
    The Djego wrote:


    Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.


    Sorry but your min/max pve arguments hold no water with CCP. They have been doing a damn fine job balancing the ships and I look forwards to their continued work.

    These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.
    Debora Tsung
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #5757 - 2013-10-16 13:06:08 UTC
    Octoven wrote:

    First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far

    Ok, Naga then.

    Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started.

    That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive.

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #5758 - 2013-10-16 13:07:21 UTC
    The Djego wrote:


    Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion, it is not like I didn't post multiple times how to make them a more interesting option compared to pirate hulls without makeing them OP or force them into extreme small niches.


    Still think I am wearing tinfoil when I rail on about how this game is designed solely for the whims of the players in the null sec cartels, by devs who came from said cartels?
    Debora Tsung
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #5759 - 2013-10-16 13:08:47 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

    Still think I am wearing tinfoil when I rail on about how this game is designed solely for the whims of the players in the null sec cartels, by devs who came from said cartels?


    More than ever. Straight

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
    Marc McIntyre Crendraven
    Brave Empire Inc.
    Brave United
    #5760 - 2013-10-16 13:09:58 UTC
    Nice, I like the most recent changes to the hulls

    Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!