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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cade Windstalker
#541 - 2013-08-30 08:21:25 UTC
Aloh wrote:
Ok CCP you want feedback here we go.

First this is BOLD, and that both pleases me and intrigues me. Bravo for that.
I don’t think anyone saw this coming so again Bravo for that.
For PVE yeah you have given people a lot of reasons to use this.
Ok here is an idea for you, two new modules you can only fit one at a time.
One a mini siege module, you get a bonus to Damage and tracking goes way down.
In other words it turns into a mini dread without the rep bonus. This module would be more useful for PvP then anything else. The battleship siege module in all other respects acts like the siege module on a dread.
The other module is a triage module
Again just as a triage module on a carrier you get the bonus to local reps but not to remote reps as that would crowd out the logi. And it would make sense to add the range bonus when using the mod but not with the siege module. You can use one but not both. Hitting a tower that won’t be defended? Siege it is. Want to run some sites in a WH? Triage is the way to go.
Adds more then just a little PvP element to the ship and its roles.
You can even use the modules skills to be of benefit to dreads when that balance happens.


No idea how this is going to be "of benefit" to dreads. The mechanics for Bastion don't use fuel and Marauders don't lead into Capitals.

Plus high sec doesn't need dread-blapping from sub-caps. That's just a horrible idea in general. So are super-damage T2 battleships.

Jacob Holland wrote:
The MJD focus runs counter to the salvage effect (tractor range particularly). The salvage effect makes Marauders best suited to short ranged weapon systems in general, it's almost impossible to see the coincidence of ranges as not designed in.

With the Kronos in particular I disagree with the bonus change. The replacement of the Stasis web bonus with a Blaster range bonus (Falloff encourages blasters) runs entirely counter to the long, MJD range the ships are perhaps shifting towards. If rails are to be encouraged then it should be an optimal range bonus.


Not really, you can MJD to within ~2-4km of any wreck within 150km of you with the 48km boosted range of a T2 Tractor Beam or you can simply choose not to fit the Bastion module for an extra high slot to more efficiently salvage and loot the mission.

Also the falloff bonus combine with the additional bonus on the Bastion mod ends up working surprisingly well for Railguns as well, especially if you fit a couple Tracking Computers in the mids. The Kronos with 425 Railguns ends up with ~60km+90 falloff with Antimatter and 2 faction TCs at max skills.

Against some rats you may be better off fitting Blasters but you would also probably not use the MJD much and rather just sit still with your massive tracking bonus and blap away at Battleships only using the MJD to clear up cruisers and frigates at the end or the beginning.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#542 - 2013-08-30 08:22:14 UTC
Falloff bonus doesn't do a whole lot for railguns. The other three ships have proper fully effective range bonuses. I think for hybrids you should just give them range bonuses on both optimal and falloff when it's a general turret ship and not made for either blasters or rails specifically, or you could go make blasters optimal-focused and drop all the falloff bonuses for optimal.
maGz
Hookers and Blackjack II
#543 - 2013-08-30 08:25:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
maGz wrote:
Without a damage bonus on the Bastion, you're not really doing the marauders any favours with these changes. Sure I can sit there and be immune to E-War, and tank like crazy but to what end? In PvE it may cut some corners and make things faster - in PvP; people will just bring more to break my tank and my 55km optimal neutrons did F all anyway...

Also you don't want them to go faster than pirate BS - yeah that's achieved pretty well. But why not out-damage them? These are ships that cost around 1 bil and you're going to force them to sit still for at least a minute - why shouldn't they out-damage the pirate BS in this mode? A Machariel can move like a mad man while applying DPS, why should the Vargur not be allowed to out-dps while not moving at all? It makes no sense whatsoever to make the Bastion and then balance it around pirate BS as the marauders would be in a totally different niche with it

Also why give us a new skill to train when this could easily (and logically) be combined with Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration?


In order...

Because damage application trumps flat damage sometimes and if you deployed in a situation where they could do that then that's kind of your mistake. It says on the tin "Niche role, use with caution" not "kill everything I-win button, use all the time every-time"

The pirate-BSes are not particularly known for their speed beyond the Machariel. The Pirate BS ships are, per this chart from the original ship re-balancing dev-blog, meant to be better versions of the T1 ships. The T2 are supposed to be more specialized. Right now we have this problem where the Pirate Battleships are stepping all over everything by being good at pretty much everything to a wide and absurd degree and that's probably going to change with the rebalance to make them just better T1 ships with good fittings but no major specializations.

Because it's not particularly logical. The Bastion doesn't use fuel and the Siege Module doesn't want a duration bonus. Plus Marauders don't exactly lead into Dreadnaughts in any sort of logical progression.


In order...

Niche role for what exactly? Woohoo I have better damage application but I sit still (only for 60 secs admittedly) but for what use? And if L4s is your answer - ok... Point being that Ytterbium mentions that they want to expand their use in PvP as well, nothing about the Bastion really seem very appealing in PvP (now if prices on Marauders were lowered - then we could talk about them being more viable for PvP).

I agree the T2 ships are meant to be specialized but this ties into the niche role. What is the role of the Marauder with these changes besides being a better missioning boat? And also there's a huge problem in general if you start balancing ships by nerfing others. Not saying pirate BS shouldn't be nerfed, but the Bastion as a niche thing should stand on its own in being awesome (not OP just awesome) and not be relying on the fact that pirate BS will be nerfed at the same time.

And finally; if you read Ytterbiums post: "This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation." Ok maybe we could agree that the current Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration doesn't tie into a Bastion module, but that's nothing a keyboard can't fix...
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#544 - 2013-08-30 08:25:47 UTC
These ships already require a huge SP investment to sit it, and an enormous 10x skill train to fly really well, do they really really need another 8x skill tacked on? Really?

The changes themselves sound amazing, but that's a long time to skill for even if you already have all the required support skills AND racial BS V completed already.
Sigras
Conglomo
#545 - 2013-08-30 08:30:17 UTC
Asaryuu wrote:
What? Really? Bastion mode? It must be me because i just don't understand. My Vargur has no issues tanking any lvl 4 and with a little patience i can even mop up the room and be on my way.

I don't see the need for some super tanky mode it must be a pvp thing.

And then to not even add any damage bonuses, what the hell is going on with this dev team.

Oh well maybe in practice it'll play better then sounds.

WAT?!

Seriously? how short sighted can you be? you get 25% extra falloff (which btw is extra damage at all ranges > 3.6 km assuming you're not doing something silly like using artillery), you get 30% more tank (which is more damage application because it frees mids for target painters / tracking computers), and you get E-War immunity (which is more damage because of reduced time jammed / dampened) and you're complaining?

Seriously, has any thought been put into what this will do to level 4 missions? This will make basically every one of them childs play even more than they are now. Missions are really gonna need an overhaul after this.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2013-08-30 08:34:01 UTC
It would be nice if the golem range bonus would be looked at. The range bonus isn't very useful for cruise missiles because engagements don't happen at those ranges, and the range bonus isn't enough to make torpedoes a solid choice either. It would be nice if it was either changed to something else so the ship supported more of a cruise missile play style, or if it had double range bonuses so that torpedoes were a good option.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#547 - 2013-08-30 08:34:23 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Seriously? how short sighted can you be? you get 25% extra falloff (which btw is extra damage at all ranges > 3.6 km assuming you're not doing something silly like using artillery)


25% range is only useful for torpedoes; with the extreme range of cruise missiles there's little benefit (other than they reach the target a bit faster). +25% rate of fire would be better.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
LordShazbot
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2013-08-30 08:34:40 UTC
This is cool and all but when are you going to upgrade the clothes store? I need new pants.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#549 - 2013-08-30 08:36:17 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot.


It's almost entirely irrelevant as there is no tanking problem running L4s, so the additional tank during bastion mode is unimportant. It's only the range bonuses that make a difference, but it's not a huge one, really.

I understand what you are saying but the extra tank allows removal of tank mods and their replacement with offensive mods.

Also the EW immunity will be very valuable in some missions.

Fear God and Thread Nought
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#550 - 2013-08-30 08:38:00 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:

The changes themselves sound amazing, but that's a long time to skill for even if you already have all the required support skills AND racial BS V completed already.


No it isn't... it's fine


the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Moroccan Tourist
Blood Raider Cleaning Crew
#551 - 2013-08-30 08:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Moroccan Tourist
Who give a **** about carebears and their L4s , although incursion might become popular again .

And I'm theocrafting a shield Paladin Big smile
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#552 - 2013-08-30 08:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Gypsio III wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot.


It's almost entirely irrelevant as there is no tanking problem running L4s, so the additional tank during bastion mode is unimportant. It's only the range bonuses that make a difference, but it's not a huge one, really.



this. I am seeing this as kind of a pvp hookup to empire actually. If by chance you deck a corp that runs even a half assed attempt at a pos defense with guns it at least gets defense boost in siege. Its not death star proof obviously....but except for the few like my friends who built their empire pos with knowledge gained from years in 0.0 about saving and killing pos' death stars aren't common in empire anyway. So this may work for this maybe.


EW immune be nice for jam mods if in the pos defence setup. It be this immunity that tbh I see is the only pve use of this siege the current setup for marauders. Pulled gurista? Stack the crap out of kinetic resists, pop siege, go to town. Its not the sensor strength boost I'd like...but it is an innovative solution to the problem. far from op...it was needed with its abysmal sensors.
Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
#553 - 2013-08-30 08:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lore Varan
The bastions weapons timer.
Does that start and then count down on activation or does the count down only start once the bastion deactivates.

Just curious If Tanking out agression timers ( Bastion and deagress ) is an intended design feature ?
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#554 - 2013-08-30 08:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
Bastion module... interesting idea, but why Mauraders? I think the MJD aspect fits them well, but the Bastion module feels tacked on- especially if you going to be reworking the hulls so they can transform.

Sounds like a new ship line to me. T2 Rokhs/Maelstroms/Abaddons/Hyperions would far more suit the Bastion idea (can picture them transforming far easier) and you can really focus on what makes Bastion-enabled ships exciting, fun to use and balanced without being polluted with the preconceptions and baggage from Mauraders.

It also rounds out the Battleship T2 tier.

Does still mean you have to rebalance Mauraders without the Bastion module, but who said this would be easy? ;)
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#555 - 2013-08-30 08:57:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P

Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.

Sorry, but I fail to see your reasoning here. The Jump portal generation skill also give some reduction on the material consumption, and that skill is also being used for covert bridges, which has no material consumption. Maybe it could work similarly? Reducing the consumption of 0? :)
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#556 - 2013-08-30 08:58:09 UTC
This will change the way Highsec POSes are fitted. Death to ECM-Stars!
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2013-08-30 09:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
PALADIN

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10
Sensor strength: 12 Radar
Signature radius: 420(-80)


The capacitor amount number is way off. The current base capacitor is 7031, so one of the two numbers is off.

/my guess is 8000 capacitor is correct, 9406 seems like an extremely strange and not round number
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#558 - 2013-08-30 09:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mc Cormeg
Why dont just leave them bascally as they are but give them some more sensor strength, the proposed bonus changes (so the Kronos gains some more short range capabillity, the other marauders are fine in short range) and as a new feature:

- a strong heatdmg bonus depending on your marauder skill-

So they gain a buff in dmg, in tank, in electronic systems and if you make salvager heatable, they even get the desired salvage buff.

And it is for the player to choose which aspect of is ship he wanna buff by choosing which modules he overheat. At the same time you gain alot more PVP potential.

That would do a lot more to the current marauder gameplay (which is fine as it is) than this crazy experimental transformer mode and mjd bonus which combine a lot of gamestyles into one single ship without being able to provide realy strong synergy effects between the different proposed mechanics.
Cade Windstalker
#559 - 2013-08-30 09:09:30 UTC
Lore Varan wrote:
Antoine Jordan wrote:

  • Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
  • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%


This is weird. Falloff helps certain gun classes more than others. Missiles don't get a damage to application at all, just projection. If you have application/projection targets you're trying to hit, I think you'd be better off evening out the Bastion module effects in case of future use, and tweaking the specific Marauder stats to hit the goals.


This

Guns should get optimal and falloff.

or

Missiles should get velocity and explosion velocity

Also

The bastions weapons timer.
Does that start and then count down on activation or does the count down only start once the bastion deactivates.

Just curious If Tanking out agression timers ( Bastion and deagress ) is an intended design feature ?


Check the OP and the Dev responses first next time. Tracking was put on there by mistake and has been removed from the OP. There's a comment in this thread from CCP Rise on the issue.

Jessica Danikov wrote:
Bastion module... interesting idea, but why Mauraders? I think the MJD aspect fits them well, but the Bastion module feels tacked on- especially if you going to be reworking the hulls so they can transform.

Sounds like a new ship line to me. T2 Rokhs/Maelstroms/Abaddons/Hyperions would far more suit the Bastion idea (can picture them transforming far easier) and you can really focus on what makes Bastion-enabled ships exciting, fun to use and balanced without being polluted with the preconceptions and baggage from Mauraders.

It also rounds out the Battleship T2 tier.

Does still mean you have to rebalance Mauraders without the Bastion module, but who said this would be easy? ;)


This still leaves Marauders in a crap spot being basically everything the new T2 ships are not supposed to be. They have a solution here as things stand and it seems to be fairly popular so why shove them back to the drawing board just because you don't like that a ship-class has "baggage".

It's not like this is their first prototype iteration, this is what they came up with after crossing off lots of high-concept and probably even fairly fleshed out ideas. It's then been refined to the point that they were ready to show it to us as a first-pass, and your argument is... that you don't like the ship model? Take it up with the art department.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#560 - 2013-08-30 09:11:05 UTC
Please make Bastion mode so it also reflect Energy Neutralizers/Vampires, mean out of 100 theoretically neuted capacitor, 50 will be neuted from Marauder and 50 from one who neutralizes (same as Capacitor Battery).

Otherwise it'll be too susceptible to capacitor warfare (if you do not mean Neutralizer immunity too).