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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#4541 - 2013-10-01 11:19:19 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Yes pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2 however...

However, the nerf bat is rumoured to be just around the corner.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4542 - 2013-10-01 11:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
What if we replaced the tractor beam range / pull speed bonus for something that each individual marauder might need...

Paladin
+ to tracking speed of Large Energy Turrets

Kronos
+ to web effectiveness
or
+ to range of webs

Golem
+ to range of torps (not cruises, just torps)
or
+ to explosion radius of torps (again for torps only)

Vargur
+ to velocity bonus of microwarp drives

Now, these bonuses might not be what each marauder is looking for, they are just example bonuses to help show what I mean by giving the EACH INDIVIDUAL Marauder a bonus that's useful for that hull. I've only flown the pally and golem, so those are what I would like to see for those hulls. What do you guys think? Is it usefull for PVP? Is it useful for PVE?


Firstly the tractor bonus is 'for free'. If it goes, it's very unlikely to be replaced with a DPS or tanking bonus. That being the case, it's a simple, flat-out, bonus having it there, and IMO it should stay. Not everyone is going to want to have to carry and drop some anchorable device, that then has to be picked up again. In fact, that's completely counter to the MJD bonus.

Secondly, Golems already have a torp (and cruise) range bonus. Are you asking for a double range bonus for the Golem? Such a thing would either be useless, or would lock the Golem into being a torp boat (why do you want that?). The Paladin should probably have a tracking bonus in place of the cap bonus.


Again, those were placeholder bonuses (maybe I didn't make that clear enough, my bad). I'm simply saying that giving them all the exact same bonuses and changes weren't working, so the idea was to give them something they could each use separately. As far as the actual bonuses I picked, I just based that off of what I've been hearing people complain about the most for those given hulls; "Paladin doesn't have a tracking bonus...", "Blaster Kronos should have a web bonus...". As far as picking on the tractor bonuses, i figured that if CCP is unwilling to at least boost the range on them, there would be little point with them given the combination of the MJD and the upcoming loot-o-matic deployable. If you believe the tractor bonuses need to stay, then so be it. I still feel each hull needs a bonus specific to that hull and that hull alone rather than trying to make a bunch of size-fits-all adjustments/bonuses/changes.

Btw, I had stupidly forgotten that the golem does in fact already have a range bonus on the hull Oops. Go figure, I fly the damn thing and missed that (I need to go to bed).

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#4543 - 2013-10-01 11:20:56 UTC
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/koY3dIC9gwY/mqdefault.jpg

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4544 - 2013-10-01 11:21:00 UTC
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Cheng Chai
Another Corp..
#4545 - 2013-10-01 11:23:21 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With +25% range given to Marauders Mach will no longer be the best at dmg projection, but I'm probably wrong.
Khronos with long range T2 and +25% range it's a hell of range for dmg application, you see what I mean?


The problem of Vargur and Kronos is that Machariel and Vindicator just do flat out more DPS and have one more Fitting slot AND one more Rigslot to make up for the damage application.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#4546 - 2013-10-01 11:26:25 UTC
From the perspective of one who used a Vargur or Golem for HS-PvE and 0.0 Ratting:

Right now i tried them, but i prefer a Macha all the time. The Speed, the possible tank, four sentries and a load of small drones...

I always thought learning the marauders was stupid. Less DPS, less speed, less scan resolution and no resist bonus on a T2 Hull.

In lvl 4 missions a MJD would be Stupid. In 0.0 ratting I jump in, clear the site warp out--> so MJD stupid. I have used a Macha in PVP but a sitting duck BS worth 1.5bil ... not with me.

I was quite happy about the changes, mostly any change would be welcome, but if i am forced to use the bastion i would not be happy.

If I have to go to bastion to use this ship i would like to see a damage plus to finally outrange the macha or the CNR if you fly a golem. Skill level should always reflect something in a ship.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#4547 - 2013-10-01 11:28:29 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?


I use my golem for 5s amigo!
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4548 - 2013-10-01 11:29:44 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:
I think the biggest issue, as some have point out, is the balancing between a PVE and PVP perspective. Traditionally speaking, the marauder has been a ship class strictly for PVE since its inception into the game. This has created an iconic "carebear" ship that was able to PvP in the past, but really suffered due to the initial limitations placed by the CCP devs.

Now we've reached an age in EvE where the ships are changing, some drastically and some just a pinch here and there. As we enter the marauder rebalance, I believe it's very important for both the players and for the developers to realize that the pre-existing iterations of marauders can already easily run lvl 4 missions. Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE. If these ships are balanced correctly, they will still excel at PVE just because they excel at PVP.

Now, as we focus on the ship balancing itself I would like to say this. As I've watched the ship balancing come and pass for the T1 hulls, I've really felt that the game has lost of its racial flare and has been more focused on homogenization through equal slot allowances, slot layouts, etc. These marauders represent the pinnacle of their respective races sub capital class ship, and as such should truly show racial differences. Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties. As for the bastion module, the idea is exciting but the presentation needs work. Due to this, these ships prove challenging to balance but here goes my two cents.

I would like to provide a concept instead of hard numbers, which hopefully will be discussed and built upon:
Bastion Module:
1) 60 second cycle timer
2) Anchor ship when activated.
3) Provides Ewar immunity while activated.
4) Provides mass increase so you can't be bumped. To counter the WH closing problem: you cannot jump while the module is activated....or dock or jump gates for that matter
5) Provides 100% bonus to armor repairer/shield repairer effectiveness and cap reduction and/or cycle time reduction to armor/shield repairers. (Caution for ASB fits....may be OP)
6) Is scripted to provide specific bonuses to short range or long range play styles. This module is only limited to 1 hull that cost over a billion, its okay to introduce a useful one considering the trade off of being stuck in place for a minute


Marauders:
Like I mentioned earlier, these should be the racial embodiment of their weapon system. They should illustrate the strength of pulse/beam lasers, blaster/railgun hybrids, cruise/torp missiles, auto/artillery projectiles through hull specific bonuses. Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.

The marauders need survivability inside and outside of bastion mode. This means providing hull bonuses that boost actual armor or shield HP. This provides usefulness for use outside of bastion mode, i.e receiving RR, and provides bonuses to bastion mode, i.e. having enough buffer to get rep cycles off.

The marauders also need racial specific support bonuses like webs, but not a blanket bonus to each hull. These ships aren't similar by any means in the damage application or ranges of engagement, so their support bonus shouldn't be similar as well.
Paladin: bonus to TC (mid range weapon system)
Golem: bonus to TP (missile application)
Kronos: bonus to web strength (short range weapon system)
Vargur: bonus to TC ( mid range weapon system)

(I'm not exactly sure what kind of (or if we should even have the bonus) support form of Ewar to use without having overlap) Edited****

Keep the MJD role bonus. Coordinated with a scripted bastion module, these ships can benefit from pulling range or closing distances to accommodate different play styles and fleet doctrines.




Still don't have anything kind of bonus that could be given to the Vargur that wouldn't step on the Paladin's toes in terms of a support bonus. Both lasers and projectiles fall into midrange category so it's proving to be challenging.



Adding this here again since the Dev's just went back to the original plan which to me shows a total lack of understand about what direction they should take. So that means ideas should still be open

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Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4549 - 2013-10-01 11:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Cheng Chai wrote:
Wow....
Version 2 created some ships that would be actually useful for something other than extremly risky c4 site running.

Sad to see that they get nerfed into the ground again. I'm glad I haven't put the marauder skillbook into my Skllplan yet.

In version 1 they have a beasty local tank but thats about it. 1 neut ship will kill them and a 100km jump every 60sec wont safe you from tackle.


Yeah, SOME ships. About two of four. That's why not all marauders should be the same. Straight

I really believe it's ok if when the ships that need a web bonus to work actually get a web bonus (Kronos anyone?).

But a web bonus for my Golem... WHY? My TP's have 30+60 km range.

Why would I want a 10km Webber on a ship that has almost 70km range with it's short range weaponry?

For the frigates some might say. But who in their right mind would want to tackle you when you are in bastion mode? That's a waste of time. And who would want to use a scram on you when everyone could stay out of your webber range by simply using a warp disruptor?

And that neuts... :/ In a Paladin I might be afraid, In a golem or vargur... not so much.

That 1 neut would have to be at least a large neut and you have enough free high slots to fit multiple energy vamps to counter that and thanks to the tank bonus of the bastion mode enough mid slots to use cap boosters and batteries...

Do You know how many 800's booster charges you can carry in a marauder?

I count 36 + ~2000 torpedoes (provided you have a container in your cargo hold). 48 if you want to use Navy charges and even more if you decide to use cruise missiles... Shocked (yes, I like my golem)

Tbh, so long as the enemy team does not have a dedicated T2 neut ship with them I would not be afraid (at least not more than usually).

And Yes, I actually do believe that if you want to PVP with your overly expensive shiney ship then you'll have a gang with you. In fact I do believe that the only reason that gang lets you tag along in your new marauder is your monstrously bloated tank and your immunity to ewar.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4550 - 2013-10-01 11:54:20 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:

Bastion Active
EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP
TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP
KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP
EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP

The Vargur with XL Gist-X, 2xInvul II, DCU II, and SBA II comes in at:

Bastion Active
EM: 76.20% - 2935.24 EHP/S - 98,914 EHP
TH: 78.20% - 3204.52 EHP/S - 80,068 EHP
KN: 81.00% - 3676.77 EHP/S - 78,595 EHP
EX: 84.20% - 4421.43 EHP/S - 82,327 EHP

With a XL Pith-X those repair numbers go up to:

EM: 3630.00 EHP/S
TH: 3963.03 EHP/S
KN: 4547.05 EHP/S
EX: 5467.97 EHP/S

There's simply a world of difference between armor and shield capabilities here. The Gist almost doubles repair output for a mere 5.9 cap/s increase over the Corpus-X repper. The Paladin could easily be destroyed by a couple of equally matched ships. Depending on cap warfare usage, the Vargur could stand up to 3-4 equally matched ships and stand a fighting chance.


That's because the Gist line of shield boosters are just massively overpowered.

Note that the Pith line is not overpowered, and every other type of shield booster is balanced against armor tanking. It's just the Gist ones that are immensely out of line and need a huge nerf. Of course, that's why they cost over 2 billion ISK.

The Pith-X is balanced against two large Centus-X reppers. It uses the cap of two large reppers as well as the fittings. A Pith-X XLSB and SBA uses 43% of the base CPU and 5.9% of the base PG of the Golem. Two Centus-X reppers use 17.4% of the base CPU and 30.5% of the base PG of the Paladin.
Nick D Wolfwood
Doomheim
#4551 - 2013-10-01 12:04:03 UTC
I just want to start the testing!
Lair Osen
#4552 - 2013-10-01 12:08:50 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:

For the frigates some might say. But who in their right mind would want to tackle you when you are in bastion mode? That's a waste of time. And who would want to use a scram on you when everyone could stay out of your webber range by simply using a warp disruptor?


Frig in web(scram) range, web and kill it.
Frig in disrupt range, you can point it, but its point is useless because of your MJD.
The web addition wasn't completely stupid (except for the golem), it just didn't fit in with the rest of the range and PvE bonuses enough to be worth the loss of the rep bonus.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4553 - 2013-10-01 12:09:38 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
....
The jump range of a acceleration gate is 2500m, again pls try it before you suggest it. You want to move around in most L4 missions, because it increases the dps, you don't want to MJD around because it deceases applied dps. The cap is not enough to run tachs and active tank under neuts, I even use a med rep for L4, since the large one doesn't add much tank by the rather limited runtime(also for fitting reasons).


Why would you ever use tachs when you can use 90km scorch? If everything is within optimal, you don't need to move. It's that simple. Moving does not increase your dps in that situation unless you can't track it, and slow-ass battleships aren't going to gain much on that front. Scorch does less DPS than Conflag sure but it sure beats out any crystal in Tachs.

And yes I know acceleration gate activation range is 2500m, it does not take long to move 2500m, even in a battleship.

Quote:
I never used active armor tank rigs on any marauder because of the high calibration cost. You throw away the opportunity to capitalize T2 damage rigs and you need to be on cap booster live support(what is terrible in WHs). RR and extra cap with a logi is just a lot more effective(again all the changes are completely useless in RR environments). Also you want to use sentry's, not light drones, not because light drones can pop(what they do from time to time, if you actually use some) but because light drones vs frigs is horrible ineffective compared to utilizing 90% webbing.


Yes, having two ships is better than one ship. Of course using a logi and a marauder is more effective than just a marauder. Instead of comparing logi + pre-patch Marauder to a single post-patch Marauder, try comparing two post-patch Marauders to a logi and a pre-patch Marauder. Pre-patch, Marauders couldn't solo C4s at all (except for maybe dual XLASB Vargurs) and definitely couldn't handle C5s. Post-patch they can do it. There is no way in hell two pilots in a logi+Marauder will ever out-ISK two pilots in two Marauders, simply on DPS alone. Safeguard neut range is 25km and Upholder neut range is 70km, in both cases you can MJD out of range and just shoot them with scorch if your tank can't handle a triple neut spawn.
Nick D Wolfwood
Doomheim
#4554 - 2013-10-01 12:11:19 UTC
Shamus en Divalone wrote:
I am currently within training range of either the Vargur or the Golem and can't decide which to go for, also I only see this ship as a long range weapons platform to cover other fleet members in a mission and clean up their mess behind them, oh and for popping structures with ease while tanking POS dps effortlessly Twisted


Well I have actually trained both. Golem pops BS and Cruiser fast at range or up close while taking a sec for the Frig size for missions and the Vargur can pop a Frig or Cruiser at range fast but needs a sec for the BS at range
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4555 - 2013-10-01 12:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Lair Osen wrote:
The web addition wasn't completely stupid (except for the golem), .

See, that's what I was talking about.

We had two crying main crowds in here.

One wanted the web bonus for their kronos and Paladin (Vargur too? I admit I only fly the golem and ignore all the other stuff) back and the others didn't want that web bonus because of missiles. Really if I were more commited to that game I'd do nothing else than to cry for one thing or the other to get it.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4556 - 2013-10-01 12:29:35 UTC
...and so we are back to square one.

let me reiterate my concerns with the old proposal (i.e. the new new proposal):
- marauders will become "too strong" for lvl4s, to the point where even pirate ships will be obsolete.
- their already questionable performance in incursions will be completely subpar
- the two points above will anger a portion of current pirate BS as well as marauder pilots. they will adapt eventually, but sill, forcing another set of 30day skills on people is kind of a **** move.
- the bastion module is a questionable pvp tool. it will increase the number of situations where one party has a default win over the other. for example, if a small gang does not bring cap warfare or overwhelming damage, they have no way of breaking through a well set up marauder, while at the same time having no chance to outrange it. on the other hand, locking your 1bil marauder in space for 60 seconds will often be a death sentence as it allows a competent frigate pilot an easy tackle.
- for pve outside of hisec bastion is not a good option, as it reduces the chance of getting away when ambushed.

now i know that you desperately want to keep the bastion module on the current marauders hulls (probably because you don't want to 'waste' the fancy animations). my proposal would be to scrap the bonus tank as well as the ewar (and remote rep) immunity and only keep the bonus range in exchange for immobility. this would keep the hisec crowd satisfied. for pvp, the new MJD bonus together with a buff in EHP and mobility would be more than enough to keep the class interesting (think T2 'attack' battleship).

I should buy an Ishtar.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4557 - 2013-10-01 12:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Xequecal wrote:
Why would you ever use tachs when you can use 90km scorch? If everything is within optimal, you don't need to move. It's that simple. Moving does not increase your dps in that situation unless you can't track it, and slow-ass battleships aren't going to gain much on that front. Scorch does less DPS than Conflag sure but it sure beats out any crystal in Tachs.

And yes I know acceleration gate activation range is 2500m, it does not take long to move 2500m, even in a battleship.


It takes well over 30s in a BS that goes very slow(even worse with armor rigs), in the same time frame I can move my current Paladin 20km with a MWD and also adjust range to the spawns on the fly. Tachs are more effective for damage projection in nearly all situations outside conflag optimal and I even tend to mwd around a lot with 30km Conflag optimal in my navy Apoc.

Xequecal wrote:
Yes, having two ships is better than one ship. Of course using a logi and a marauder is more effective than just a marauder. Instead of comparing logi + pre-patch Marauder to a single post-patch Marauder, try comparing two post-patch Marauders to a logi and a pre-patch Marauder. Pre-patch, Marauders couldn't solo C4s at all (except for maybe dual XLASB Vargurs) and definitely couldn't handle C5s. Post-patch they can do it. There is no way in hell two pilots in a logi+Marauder will ever out-ISK two pilots in two Marauders, simply on DPS alone. Safeguard neut range is 25km and Upholder neut range is 70km, in both cases you can MJD out of range and just shoot them with scorch if your tank can't handle a triple neut spawn.


Again scorch range gimps your dps and it is far easier to multibox 2 marauders + logi than 3 marauders(you can't even cap chain between marauders in bastion) and you need the logi anyway since cap charges can't be easily restocked in Wormholes and you would need to many cap mods otherwise, the gains are not even that big given that you lose about 30-50% of the dps if you don't utilize sentry's and can't stay at ranges where you do optimal damage.

Yes a single marauder will be able to tank C4 and C5 after the changes, but the price for this is a big nerf to her potential in gangs, where they are miles more effective for this kind of content, because they can utilize the utility high slots for RR and cap chaining. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against all the fancy stuff, that I will never use, but it doesn't make sense why marauders should be overall a lot worse for the people that don't need active tank and even if they do would rather chose the higher dps and speed the current marauders got over becoming immobile low dps brick tanks(If I want that I can use a rattlesnake for it).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4558 - 2013-10-01 12:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
The Djego wrote:
Again scorch range gimps your dps and it is far easier to multibox 2 marauders + logi than 3 marauders(you can't even cap chain between marauders in bastion) and you need the logi anyway since cap charges can't be easily restocked in Wormholes and you would need to many cap mods otherwise, the gains are not even that big given that you lose about 30-50% of the dps if you don't utilize sentry's and can't stay at ranges where you do optimal damage.

Yes a single marauder will be able to tank C4 and C5 after the changes, but the price for this is a big nerf to her potential in gangs, where they are miles more effective for this kind of content, because they can utilize the utility high slots for RR and cap chaining. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against all the fancy stuff, that I will never use, but it doesn't make sense why marauders should be overall a lot worse for the people that don't need active tank and even if they do would rather chose the higher dps and speed the current marauders got over becoming immobile low dps brick tanks(If I want that I can use a rattlesnake for it).


3 Marauders with Scorch is better DPS than 2 Marauders with Conflag and a logi.

Quote:
It takes well over 30s in a BS that goes very slow(even worse with armor rigs), in the same time frame I can move my current Paladin 20km with a MWD and also adjust range to the spawns on the fly. Tachs are more effective for damage projection in nearly all situations outside conflag optimal and I even tend to mwd around a lot with 30km Conflag optimal in my navy Apoc.


Honestly, there's nothing stopping you from running a MJD and an afterburner, bastion means you can pretty much 1-slot tank L4s. This is IMHO why they nerfed the drone bays, or people would do ridiculous gimmick fits like 2-slot shield tanking their Paladin with 4 heatsinks and 3 drone damage mods. The Tach comment is just nonsensical, Tachs with MF or Gleam have far worse DPS and tracking than pulses with Scorch.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4559 - 2013-10-01 13:15:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.


These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.


Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .


Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?


The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.



Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense.



I'm going to disagree with you a bit.

Increased damage is not important in bastion.
See, what bastion allows Marauders to do, is not be stopped from dealing damage.

Some ships deal more damage, but as the cost of 0 mobility, Marauders can deal damage non-stop.
Higher dps ships can be blocked from dealing damage.

Also, the reason for 249km lock range is because of grid issues.
If you get outside that lock range, there's a good chance you'll fall off grid, and that's an issue.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4560 - 2013-10-01 13:20:48 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?


Because it's true.

If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you.
When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit.

However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster.
In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range.

Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships.
So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets...

I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake...

Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder.