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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4501 - 2013-10-01 02:25:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vrykolakasis wrote:
I lied, I'm posting. Sorry. Just had to.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now.

There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move.

If blasters needed a 90% web then the mega was useless to begin with, so why would you go to it?


I assume it's because the mega gets the same tracking bonus, has a larger drone bay and bandwidth, and you can buy ten hulls for the cost of one kronos?

According to his logic the blasters still won't work so you would just lose 10 hulls for the cost of one. If drones are the deciding factor why not sidestep the whole blaster thing and get a domi. And since the Vindicator does and still will continue to do the job better for not too much more, why shoehorn the kronos into the same role.


I wonder if making the Kronos drone focused would be OP?

I mean, it's often considered that drones are the best thing gallente have going for them, and they're considered one of the better setups for pve.

What if instead of rails on the Kronos, it was given the ability to fit drone control units?
It would get less than a 100% damage bonus to keep it in line and would only field 8-10 drones.

I mean,now that it's going to be ewar immune in bastion, it's not like drones would give it a distinct advantage over the other hulls.
You could focus the bonuses on sentries, so it wouldn't be bonused for smaller drones...

I wonder how it would work out?
Even if it was slightly more powerful, drones are also a lot more skill intensive than weapon modules...

It would definitely spice things up a bit.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4502 - 2013-10-01 02:36:09 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
I still think the bastion module should have a dps boost. I also think that people are underestimating what uses a 60 sec mjd will do for staying mobile.

I really can't wait to try one out on the test server, though. I do remember all the naysayers on the CNR and how it would suck after the changes, so lets give these a go then provide some real feedback!



I don't think they should have a damage buff.
In bastion they're ewar immune, will have the largest tanks of sub cap ships, 25% range increase, and they have MJD cd bonus.

Pirate should keep the damage and mobility
STush T
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#4503 - 2013-10-01 02:36:22 UTC
I fully support a marauder that uses sentries as its dps. Although with the new tractor beam structure, and salvage drones, im not sure what would make it a marauder and not just an ordinary dominix. But if CCP could work that out, I would fly one. For missions anyway.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4504 - 2013-10-01 02:37:48 UTC
What if we replaced the tractor beam range / pull speed bonus for something that each individual marauder might need...

Paladin
+ to tracking speed of Large Energy Turrets

Kronos
+ to web effectiveness
or
+ to range of webs

Golem
+ to range of torps (not cruises, just torps)
or
+ to explosion radius of torps (again for torps only)

Vargur
+ to velocity bonus of microwarp drives

Now, these bonuses might not be what each marauder is looking for, they are just example bonuses to help show what I mean by giving the EACH INDIVIDUAL Marauder a bonus that's useful for that hull. I've only flown the pally and golem, so those are what I would like to see for those hulls. What do you guys think? Is it usefull for PVP? Is it useful for PVE?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4505 - 2013-10-01 02:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:

Bastion Active
EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP
TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP
KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP
EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP

The Vargur with XL Gist-X, 2xInvul II, DCU II, and SBA II comes in at:

Bastion Active
EM: 76.20% - 2935.24 EHP/S - 98,914 EHP
TH: 78.20% - 3204.52 EHP/S - 80,068 EHP
KN: 81.00% - 3676.77 EHP/S - 78,595 EHP
EX: 84.20% - 4421.43 EHP/S - 82,327 EHP

With a XL Pith-X those repair numbers go up to:

EM: 3630.00 EHP/S
TH: 3963.03 EHP/S
KN: 4547.05 EHP/S
EX: 5467.97 EHP/S

There's simply a world of difference between armor and shield capabilities here. The Gist almost doubles repair output for a mere 5.9 cap/s increase over the Corpus-X repper. The Paladin could easily be destroyed by a couple of equally matched ships. Depending on cap warfare usage, the Vargur could stand up to 3-4 equally matched ships and stand a fighting chance.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4506 - 2013-10-01 02:58:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU OH GOD THANK YOU!!!
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4507 - 2013-10-01 03:39:17 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:

Bastion Active
EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP
TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP
KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP
EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP

The Vargur with XL Gist-X, 2xInvul II, DCU II, and SBA II comes in at:

Bastion Active
EM: 76.20% - 2935.24 EHP/S - 98,914 EHP
TH: 78.20% - 3204.52 EHP/S - 80,068 EHP
KN: 81.00% - 3676.77 EHP/S - 78,595 EHP
EX: 84.20% - 4421.43 EHP/S - 82,327 EHP

With a XL Pith-X those repair numbers go up to:

EM: 3630.00 EHP/S
TH: 3963.03 EHP/S
KN: 4547.05 EHP/S
EX: 5467.97 EHP/S

There's simply a world of difference between armor and shield capabilities here. The Gist almost doubles repair output for a mere 5.9 cap/s increase over the Corpus-X repper. The Paladin could easily be destroyed by a couple of equally matched ships. Depending on cap warfare usage, the Vargur could stand up to 3-4 equally matched ships and stand a fighting chance.

You just compared a 4-Slot + 1 Rig Armor Tank with a 5-Slot Shield Tank.
You compared a 1x LAR armor tank to a Booster+SBA shield setup.
You compared a Deadspace Line that increases ressource consumption with a deadspace line that decreases ressource consumption.
You also found close to a decade old differences between shield and armor.
Nothing about those numbers should come as a surprise to you.
stoicfaux
#4508 - 2013-10-01 03:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Well, the Vargur just got silly in regards to level 4s. Shocked Currently, a Pithum C-Type MSB provides the bare minimum of tank for the Vargur (~300-400 tank with two mission specific hardeners+SBAII.) It has the advantage of being perma-boosted which cuts down on the micromanagement.

tl;dr - ~600 perma-tank, ~900DPS out to ~90km. 3s cycle times.

Rubicon Vargur's Tank in Bastion Mode with DCII, PIthum C-Type, and Invul II (not including passive shield regen):
Angel - 643.5
Blood Raiders - 551.8
EoM - 639.0
Guristas - 617.3
Mercs - 602.6
Mordu's Legion - 635.2
Rogue Drones - 672.0
Sansha - 548.7
Serpentis - 611.5

Effectively cap stable, meaning you can perma-boost the Pithum C MSB.

Range with 3 TCs and Ambit rig:
base: 4.2+72
Bastion: 5.25+90km

DPS with 2 5% dmg implants:
RF ammo: 1123 (1155 w/o reload) (No drone dps.)
79% DPS at falloff: 887 (912 w/o reload)
With 120 salvos, you don't often need to reload in the middle of a pocket.

Mach with 3 TEs for Comparison and 2x5% dmg implants:
Range: 3.8+56km
DPS w/T1: 1034
DPS w/RF: 1189

CNR with 4 CN BCUs and 5% rof and dmg impalnts:
999 missile DPS with Fury out to 93.75km (or 121km with Sig Amp II.)

[Vargur, Level 4 - Pithum C MSB (Rubicon)]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4509 - 2013-10-01 03:56:26 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
You just compared a 4-Slot + 1 Rig Armor Tank with a 5-Slot Shield Tank.
You compared a 1x LAR armor tank to a Booster+SBA shield setup.
You compared a Deadspace Line that increases ressource consumption with a deadspace line that decreases ressource consumption.
You also found close to a decade old differences between shield and armor.
Nothing about those numbers should come as a surprise to you.

The numbers don't surprise me at all. The two setups are similar in that they are both 5 slot fits; the difference being 1 rig versus 1 mid slot due to module availability. It does no good to use the "less resource" Corp armor repair module in the comparison as it has the exact same HP/cap ratio as the Corpus.

The post wasn't so much about the age old difference in repair potential between armor and shield tanking, but to highlight that difference when applied to Marauders when a bastion module is active. It is merely meant to be informative to anyone reading as to where the hulls sit in the realm of local repair potential.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Darkwolf
#4510 - 2013-10-01 04:05:02 UTC
Good to see from the last dev post that some sense has prevailed. Although I still think some base hull work could be in order (more EHP, possibly?), anything's better than that Version 2 mess.

I'm looking forward to testing out the Version 1 stats on Singularity when it's available.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4511 - 2013-10-01 04:17:08 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
...

What I'm really interested in seeing is the stats for the new Rapid Heavies. You'd be looking at ExRad of ~116m and ExVel of ~135m/s with 2xRigor II with Furies and ExRad of ~67m and ExVel of ~140m/s using CN ammo. A missile boat with the ability to down engage would be quite fun P

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

stoicfaux
#4512 - 2013-10-01 04:29:43 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
...

What I'm really interested in seeing is the stats for the new Rapid Heavies. You'd be looking at ExRad of ~116m and ExVel of ~135m/s with 2xRigor II with Furies and ExRad of ~67m and ExVel of ~140m/s using CN ammo. A missile boat with the ability to down engage would be quite fun P

For PvP, it could be useful. For PvE, I would be worried about range. *IF* the Raven/CNR/Golem cannot apply their missile speed bonus (and other bonuses) to the new rapid launchers, then you're looking at ~45km for Fury HMLs, and ~60km for T1. Even with a 50% missile speed bonus, that's still just ~65km for Fury HMLs.

I'm withholding opinion until we have some official stats and answers about hull bonuses.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#4513 - 2013-10-01 05:30:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.



Definitely looking forward to trying out the v1.0 Golem on Sisi.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4514 - 2013-10-01 07:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.



Sounds awesome. Big smile

I think I'll totally overtank my marauder just so I have a reason to rename it to "Der Monstrositat". Lol

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4515 - 2013-10-01 07:32:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


You are still doing the same mistake: trying to make them all the same. You are doing it wrong. Can;t have the same thing work for Pali-Vargur-Golem-Kronos. Some of them are better off in the the second iteration and some in the first.

Regarding their pvp (lol) uses: any sub cap vessel that can not receive any remote assistance is a ticket to an expensive phail, being susceptible to cap drain at the same time only adds injury to insult.

You know pve is not just lvl 4s. In fact there are 4 or 5 options out there which mean that lvl4s are entirely out of the pve "endgame". So you are trying to make a top-of-the-line BS for intermediate users? wtf?
Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone
Caldari State
#4516 - 2013-10-01 07:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Christyna Ishiyama
now I am pretty confused

they returned bonus to armor repair and add ressistance bonus to bastion mode? Am I right?

And what about T2 ressists? They removed them or not? I can see them still in first post description. (if they leave them I like this "second update" for PvE reasons)

so whats the current state?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4517 - 2013-10-01 07:50:03 UTC
I think I'm just going to wait until Nov-19 and be surprised.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4518 - 2013-10-01 07:58:39 UTC
Christyna Ishiyama wrote:
so whats the current state?

What's not to understand?

Current State is marauder iteration 1.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4519 - 2013-10-01 08:05:10 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Christyna Ishiyama wrote:
so whats the current state?

What's not to understand?
Current State is marauder iteration 1.


Maybe*.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#4520 - 2013-10-01 08:09:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


Take that second version and file it under CCP Blunder #281818227739302. Also, singularity = in practise? Shocked
Followed by a nerf threat to machariels. You sir, know how to upset people.