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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2881 - 2013-09-06 15:11:17 UTC
Drizzitx wrote:
Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D


You can afk tank this to.

******* missions.. its so idiotic to balance things around something as broken as the Eve mission system.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2882 - 2013-09-06 15:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Debora Tsung wrote:
If there was ever a reason to buy a marauder, this was not it. Straight

Honestly salvaging on the fly... Ugh

The only time I ver used that tractor beam range bonus was when I wanted to get that mission critical loot one minute earlier...

Doesn't happen that often, as I could just kill all, warp out and come back with my noctis. And once you go for blitzing all missions, you've got a MWD anyways, no?

TBH looting stuff on the go provides some ISK/hour gain if you do missions in a manner that doesn't really benefit from stopping the process of grinding to loot stuff with dedicated ship. But justifying this training just for that... I don't know...

No, actually, I do. And I agree that only a good nich for marauders can save them.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2883 - 2013-09-06 15:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Onictus wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.


If there was ever a reason to buy a marauder, this was not it. Straight

Honestly salvaging on the fly... Ugh

The only time I ver used that tractor beam range bonus was when I wanted to get that mission critical loot one minute earlier...

Doesn't happen that often, as I could just kill all, warp out and come back with my noctis. And once you go for blitzing all missions, you've got a MWD anyways, no?


So other than saving on ammo, what is the advantage? Overtanking? Ship speed? DPS? Nothing matched up. My mach goes over 650 m/s on after burner and has a sig smaller than passive drake...with over 900 DPS to boot, it was basically a matter of charge destroy and bail.

What exactly is the motivation to train ANOTHER x10 skill and buy another expensive ship....that can't match any of it?


Only reason to use marauder over faction or pirate bs is less ammo usage, a tiny bit better tank, lock range (110ish with golem) and maybe tractor bonus to get mission lootski faster. That +20-30 lock range was really useful on golem tho.

but when we talk about anything else thats not lvl4 missions then they are and will be crap with these changes.

there are better ships for lvl5-s and most lvl5-s are being done in carriers where player has carrier in every god damn system and they only blitz while deny all bad missions and just shuttle around.

but now then when we talk about machariel.. well everything is **** compared to it.

Barrogh Habalu wrote:
TBH looting stuff on the go provides some ISK/hour gain if you do missions in a manner that doesn't really benefit from stopping the process of grinding to loot stuff with dedicated ship. But justifying this training just for that... I don't know...

No, actually, I do. And I agree that only a good nich for marauders can save them.


looting and salvaging on the go is so trivial and pita with 40km tractor that it's almost useless.. rather kill all and clean up with noctis triple the time.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2884 - 2013-09-06 15:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Onictus wrote:
Grombutz wrote:


PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!


These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES!

......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh"

Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.


The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.

That's if the dreads have 3 damage mods. With no mods, it's five and six.
Drizzitx
Dreamkillers
#2885 - 2013-09-06 15:21:17 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Drizzitx wrote:
Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D


You can afk tank this to.

******* missions.. its so idiotic to balance things around something as broken as the Eve mission system.


That may be but most people are saying this takes an ASB, the Tengu is faster to get into, can be cheaper, and cap stable on its own.
But yes missions themselves need to be balanced or something lol
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2886 - 2013-09-06 15:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2887 - 2013-09-06 15:23:22 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Grombutz wrote:


PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!


These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES!

......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh"

Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.


The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.



Do you even play the game? A naglfar would Insta pop the vargur in a SINGLE HIT!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2888 - 2013-09-06 15:25:40 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.



Yeah but they can't kill a single sieged dread either. That is why I was questioning the logic of all of these changes at all.

If you want a ship that has uses both PvE and PvP and is T2 all you have to do is make them slightly toned down versions of the pirate battleships.

Leave the 4 turrets with 100% bonus / active rep bonus
Give them real T2 resists

Now add x damage and application bonuses as appropriate


Why screw around with this getto dread that isn't a dread, and doesn't use tactical reconfig .....because stront crap. They are over complicating the issue.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2889 - 2013-09-06 15:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?


With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 50k? You could get >150k EHP on the old Vargur and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.

Ok I guess a Naglfar could one-shot it or at least do armor/hull damage on every cycle, but the other dreads wouldn't break it.
Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2890 - 2013-09-06 15:29:32 UTC
Marauder rebalance DOA... I was really happy with the first set of changes, maybe 30% bonus in bastion mode was a little much but overall it was a good idea.

This new round of changes is basically just making them the way they were, maybe even a little worse. Having a bonus to webs doesn't help at all when I'm trying to take down frigates in a mission. I doubt anyone is going to be using a 900,000,000 isk ship for pvp just because it has a nifty bonus to webs, well unless you're just crazy space rich.

Combine this with the reduced drone bay and now you've just have a really expensive target ship.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2891 - 2013-09-06 15:31:55 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?


With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.



Mabye, but unless the dreads are shooting perfectly sync'd its going to (at the very least) bleed hull, I'd be amazed if it managed to last more than a 4-6 cycles. Even then eventually something is going to have to reload and that would be game over.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2892 - 2013-09-06 15:31:57 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?


With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.


you do realize that XLASB's wont last forever and they use charges? And they have reload time?
And Marauder cant kill dread?!

hmmmm who would win in the end? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2893 - 2013-09-06 15:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
The Spod wrote:

This is a good thing. The difference in range, lock timeand numbers still vastly favor the marauder blob. It's not supposed to solo kill a capital, that would just be redundant power creep.

It's the subcapital anti-capital wing.

Dropping dreads on 200 marauders each pushing 2000-3000dps against capitals, each sporting target spectrum breaker to make the dread pilots hate their lock time... Not a good move.


Don't underestimate the range of dreads - most pack a selectiong of sebos and tracking computers and can quite handily push out dps to 100+km - in the given scenario tho people are more likely to drop a carrier blob tho rather than dreads.


Xequecal wrote:

The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


Being able to tank the dps numbers is one thing - 3 dreads will alpha through most sub-caps if they are sitting still - only takes a few good quality hits and even with 300-400K EHP the dreads can push past the tank - I've seen a dual plate, slaved vindi die under triage reps just coz the dreads got some good quality hits in a row.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2894 - 2013-09-06 15:34:28 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?


With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.


you do realize that XLASB's wont last forever and they use charges? And they have reload time?
And Marauder cant kill dread?!

hmmmm who would win in the end? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2895 - 2013-09-06 15:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Xequecal wrote:
The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore.


no.. really.. im sure that random guys just brawl out in deep 0... one marauder, one dread and they just do it without any backup at all from either side - and then at some point marauder just packs hes stuff and goes home to cry?

I think this will happen in future with these proposed changes!

I hope you get my sarcasm.


also.. that marauder wont be moving anywhere if it would be real life pvp situation in null. with mjd ab mwd or not - only escape with pod
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2896 - 2013-09-06 15:41:13 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.


wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?


With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 50k? You could get >150k EHP on the old Vargur and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.

Ok I guess a Naglfar could one-shot it or at least do armor/hull damage on every cycle, but the other dreads wouldn't break it.



My stabber can tank 200 dreads... much more reliably than your Marauders can....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2897 - 2013-09-06 15:42:05 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update here.

BASTION MODULE

  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
  • Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
  • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
  • Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
  • Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
  • Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
  • Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
  • Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5


  • Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large (specified) weapon damage,
    • 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams,
    70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

  • (Specified) Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 5% bonus to capacitor capacity
    7.5% bonus to Large (specified) optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

  • Marauder Skill Bonus:
    • 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
    5% bonus to large (specified) damage per level



    I feel really bad for you CCP. The Marauders are currently close to mid range ships and you are proposing to continue that characteristic but several things cause problems.

    1. Close range combat ships with a micro jump drive bonus... Shocked
    2. 7.5% bonus to webs per level
    [A player can fly a Vindicator in LESS than HALF the time it takes to get in a Marauder]
    3. 5% damage bonus per level
    [again, Vindicator = bigger bonus + LESS than HALF the training time]
    4. I don't know what other people used the utility slots for but put some Energy Vampires on there and you are cap stable so the capacitor bonus makes Energy Neutralizes the only module worth using. (This is a great opportunity to make Marauders more PVP 'friendly' (irony) but makes 3 high slots useless in PVE.)
    5. As the proposal for the Bastion module stands now, it is only useful for long range combat and if a player plans on using close close range combat they might as well fly a Faction Battleship.
    [again, Faction BS = bigger damage bonus + bigger web bonus + LESS than HALF the training time]
    6. The 2 qualities that make the current Marauder useful are their utility high slots and their repair bonus. If a player needs to equip a module to get the repair bonus then the ship is a lesser Faction Battleship with a glorified 'repair' module.

    I have to admit, the Marauder change needs to happen but what that balance of old and new is going to be is not clear to anyone right now Sad

    The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.
    Xequecal
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #2898 - 2013-09-06 15:42:52 UTC
    CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
    Xequecal wrote:
    The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore.


    no.. really.. im sure that random guys just brawl out in deep 0... one marauder, one dread and they just do it without any backup at all from either side - and then at some point marauder just packs hes stuff and goes home to cry?

    I think this will happen in future with these proposed changes!

    I hope you get my sarcasm.


    also.. that marauder wont be moving anywhere if it would be real life pvp situation in null. with mjd ab mwd or not - only escape with pod


    I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.
    CanI haveyourstuff
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #2899 - 2013-09-06 15:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
    Xequecal wrote:
    I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.


    ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc

    do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont..
    I really doupt that you want it either :P
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2900 - 2013-09-06 15:54:24 UTC
    CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
    Xequecal wrote:
    I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.


    ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc

    do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont..
    I really doupt that you want it either :P


    Do people here know what they want?

    Do they all want the same thing?

    Do some of them want mutually exclusive things?

    (brace for ensuing flame war...)

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".