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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2901 - 2013-09-06 15:57:55 UTC
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2902 - 2013-09-06 15:57:59 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.


ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc

do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont..
I really doupt that you want it either :P



I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.

This aint it though.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2903 - 2013-09-06 15:58:06 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Do people here know what they want?

Do they all want the same thing?

Do some of them want mutually exclusive things?

(brace for ensuing flame war...)


as we have seen, they listen who screams the loudest... so lets not allow clueless miner person to scream louder Big smile

Onictus wrote:
I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.

This aint it though.


+1
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2904 - 2013-09-06 16:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Xequecal wrote:


I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.


You can't go by the EFT volley damage tho - the formula allows for upto 1.49x (don't think 1.5x is actually possible but could be wrong) damage for normal shots and a moros wrecking shot could be almost 200K volley and a decently fit moros will be doing an average of about 70k raw alpha ignoring resists against a stationary target - even one could potentially get enough lucky shots to push through the tank unless the EHP is really massive and 2-3 almost definitely will against all but the most extreme tanked sub-caps - even taking bastion into account.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2905 - 2013-09-06 16:03:53 UTC
Again, I'm sad that the ASB anomaly of a repair system has had such an effect on this rebalance effort. The 30% resists weren't that over the top until you throw a couple of ASBs onto one of these hulls with the hull rep bonus + the old bastion bonus. Can we please one-per-ship this abomination?

I would be fine if they specialized the marauder class into a mobile (MJD) long range weapons platform as long as they introduced another T2 line for brawling. As it stands, you can make both styles of play work with the existing TQ hulls. With the latest version of the proposal you get a mixed bag of bonuses that wind up marginalizing both roles compared to the current TQ version.

What I'd like to see is CCP either pick a role like EWAR, sniping, brawling, or gate crashing and tailor the hull and bonuses to it or select a specific aspect or capability such as tanking, damage application, damage amount, or mobility and go with that. I want a real, defined direction for the class stated so we can actually provide feedback on the proposed changes.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2906 - 2013-09-06 16:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:


as we have seen, they listen who screams the loudest... so lets not allow clueless miner person to scream louder Big smile



This unfortunate state of affairs is called Democracy. It's outlawed in most parts of the world, for good reason!

Onictus wrote:
I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.

This aint it though.


You need to define what is it. Currently a marauder is a T2 ship that deliberately can't battle. You're suggesting you want to change the purpose of the ship class.

I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2907 - 2013-09-06 16:06:29 UTC
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Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Again, I'm sad that the ASB anomaly of a repair system has had such an effect on this rebalance effort. The 30% resists weren't that over the top until you throw a couple of ASBs onto one of these hulls with the hull rep bonus + the old bastion bonus. Can we please one-per-ship this abomination?

********************************************
********************************************

^^ THIS! ^^

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2908 - 2013-09-06 16:08:25 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.



Thats the problem with this thread - you essentially have different camps something like:

-Those that want a T2 PVP battleship
-Those that want an actual marauder with PVE and PVP application
-Those that want a highsec PVE monster
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2909 - 2013-09-06 16:14:38 UTC
Houm, after some more thought, still don't get it.

The MJD bonus says: SNIPE! (obviously)
The tiny drone hold says: SNIPE! (because, 5 x light drones can be gone in 20 seconds)
The Bastion module says: SNIPE! (range + active tank, what else you need?)

But then you get a bonus to webbers? WTF? If you need to web something closer than 27 km (IIRC), you're not sniping and then WTH didn't you bring a faction BS? Because the bastion boosts your active tank, eating cap away from your MJD?

Marauders are extremely expensive, and they should be extremely useful too. The primitive Bastion module was nice, because the extra passive tank on a high slot meant you could sacrifice tank for something else, but in its current shape is just middle of nowhere.

And really can't see why should a sniper class have bonuses to not sniping. Tracking and explosion velocity bonus would make more sense in dealing with small craft at any range; the current bastion + webbers bonus means that if you use your webbers, you're kind of doing it wrong.

With the initial Bastion, i pictured the Marauder as a long range ship which can make a standoff if needed (flee or stay, it had both options). But now, it doesn't "stays" well enough to justify not MJD'in away, specially with the nearly useless drone hold.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2910 - 2013-09-06 16:19:49 UTC
To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.

With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!

or

You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:

"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"

Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2911 - 2013-09-06 16:21:14 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2912 - 2013-09-06 16:25:22 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.



The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P


What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.


Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.

For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.

That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2913 - 2013-09-06 16:40:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.



The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P


What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.


Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.

For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.

That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.


Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2914 - 2013-09-06 16:41:08 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


Its not that handy for immobile blaster boats. Most fights happen in null range which is not in web range.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#2915 - 2013-09-06 16:45:47 UTC
i just think that ccp is trying to cram to much in to one hull, it would be really good if they could change Marauder a little, and then add a T2 attack battle ships that could use bastion mode.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2916 - 2013-09-06 16:52:18 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.



The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P


What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.


Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.

For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.

That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.


Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...


easy... 5% rof then...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2917 - 2013-09-06 16:52:52 UTC
Zane Ziebold wrote:
i just think that ccp is trying to cram to much in to one hull, it would be really good if they could change Marauder a little, and then add a T2 attack battle ships that could use bastion mode.



no no no I want to pvp with that T2 TEMPEST hull.. not with the HORRIBLE loooking malestrom hull.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2918 - 2013-09-06 17:01:53 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

You need to define what is it. Currently a marauder is a T2 ship that deliberately can't battle. You're suggesting you want to change the purpose of the ship class.

I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.



You know, you would have a point if CCP hadn't said they wanted to give the ship some pvP application. Which is good, because mauraders overall are "meh" on the PvE side of things, if you must PvE the pirate ships do it better.

The only reason to fly them is if you are a salvager that can't be arsed to get your noctis or if you want to save ammo, currently.

So like I said, toss this ghetto dread module that other than making it a fail ship serves no purpose and look at what works.

.....what works are the pirate battleships.

That being said

1) Keep the current role bonuses (i.e. 100% damage for turrets and active tank) and real T2 resists
2) Add application; tracking and optimal for amarr/gallente, falloff for matar, explosion velocity for caldari
3) Generous damage bonuses, and none of this 5% crap 7.5 at least, 10% better (I know power creep, damn right the ships aren't worth the isk currently)
4) web bonus? I like it....a lot, but I PvP first and carebear only so much as I need to fund my other endeavors.
5) tractor bonus? ...is meh... could be made to work, I'll get into that is a sec

After that, tinker with fitting, buffer, speed and agility to give each race a bit of flavor

Make the Vargur operate like a mach without to dronebay, but with a web bonus. Its a Pest model, pest are fast, people like fast battleships. ROLL WITH THAT
Make the Kronos a T2 Vindi, no one would mind, the one I would leave at 5% damage, but with an optimal bonus that makes it a mean blaster boat, and rails love optimal....so less damage more buffer, maybe a bit slower
Paladin, roll the cap bonus, we hate cap bonuses, they suck. Apoc with a huge buffer and a web bonus. ******* CRUCIAL I would fly that all day and all night.
Golem, ugh missiles. C'mon raven with a tank, make it a bit slower but something to be feared if you either a) fit the rigs to get some range on torps b) cruise missiles.


I'd say add the tractor/4 turret/tractor/web as a role bonus.

Simply because if you really want the ship dual purposed, you will NEVER be using all of the bonuses, ever. Make the build price around the current value of the Pirate BSs (rattler excluded that thing has issues).

Bingo you have a T2 battleship that people would actually buy, right now there is no real reason other than the novely of the bastar....bastion module that would make anyone intterested in it. rooting myself in place goes against ALL of my eve related instincts, as much as relying on an MJD to be up when I need it does.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2919 - 2013-09-06 17:05:53 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...


That bonus is there to account for only having 4 turrets....

A damage bonus after the fact is being practical.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2920 - 2013-09-06 17:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.