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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2701 - 2013-09-05 21:02:15 UTC
Pi Selina wrote:
Quote:
GOLEM

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.


No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses!

What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff.

So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2702 - 2013-09-05 21:02:45 UTC
Pi Selina wrote:
Quote:
GOLEM

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.

Most PvEer's comments I've seen is "MJD out there and snipe those frigs"
Most Incursioners comments I've seen is "Get in there and web those frigs"

The Golem can do neither. Even with Cruise Missiles, the above bonuses, 2x Rigor IIs, 3x RBTPainters and 2x Domination Webs,.. and frigs heading straight towards me, I'm gettin' 423 DPS to 14km and 139 DBS to 45,.. from theoretically 8 Cruise Launchers.

With Torps as we all know,.. it'd be even worse!

Sure Gunnery Marauders can 1-Blap Frigs as they're barreling straight at you, a Vargur has little change in DPS between Frigs, Cruisers and BCs given the "straight at you" situation,.. which can be controlled and reset every 54-57 seconds. The Golem (in my experience) requires Light Drones to deal with frigates. Elite Frigates get pounded as EWAR happens,.. the rest are ignored until I vacuum up a mission site.

Please remove this Web Bonus on the Golem's Hull. While the Target Painting Bonus is useful against Cruisers+,.. the Web Bonus has no use on a ship that can't apply damage to frigates in the first place. A bonus to TORPEDO Velocity would be appreciated,.. because sure, applying Cruise Missile DPS ASAP is great,.. when your targetting range is only 250km,.. and your midslots are tied up with TPs and a new MJD, who has the room for a Sensor Booster.

Do as others have stated and put the web bonus in a script for the Bastion module, I really can't see how webbing frigates will benefit Large Missiles at all,..

Though if someone could point out how I COULD use Webs on frigates with Large Missiles,.. I'm all ears,..


I can 1-2 shot frigates in WC l4 using navy missiles with 2 tp and a web, but still wasting even 1 volley on a frigate is a waste considering the slow rof and high volley missile system has. I am sure with 3 tp you will get the same effect and with the up coming 5 s tp cycle time, i dont even see the purpose of using web. .
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2703 - 2013-09-05 21:03:48 UTC
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:
Pi Selina wrote:
Quote:
GOLEM

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.


No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses!

What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff.

So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh.


Thats nonsense.

Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2704 - 2013-09-05 21:08:31 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers.

Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE.
Or simply they don't have any clue.

Smile Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that.

Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for).

Always a silver lining. Smile


Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage.

Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against.

Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.



I think he meant while you will be slightly less tank in your paladin pve you will be more protected from suicide ganks as you will have a better omni tank where as a golem will have a huge em hole during their pve missioing while fighting angels or serpentis. most pve missioner wouldnt consider being suicide ganked while in a missiion in high sec so most likely most would not fit EM resist in their golem when fighting angel rats
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2705 - 2013-09-05 21:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Cassius Invictus wrote:

Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

The T2 resist profiles seem based more on the damage of the T2 ammo types.
Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2706 - 2013-09-05 21:16:59 UTC
Grombutz wrote:
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:
Pi Selina wrote:
Quote:
GOLEM

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.


No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses!

What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff.

So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh.


Thats nonsense.

Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird.


There is no other Caldari ship with a TP bonus, which is, was and always will be a module usually associated with Minmatar hulls. As are stasis webifiers, although Minmatar hulls usually posess stasis webifier range bonuses.

The Golem is downright anomalous (but to be fair, as were/are/will be Paladin and Kronos) in it's bonuses, and I could now go on and on about the design philosophies of the different races and T2 manufacturers, but that would become quite offtopic.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2707 - 2013-09-05 21:20:44 UTC
While I agree that the Web Bonus is odd on the Golem I think the best way to make the web bonus work well with this is to give the bastion mod a 300% bonus to range of Webs. This will push a Fed Navy web out to 42k before heat or boosts. This will make the incursion runners happy and also make this bonus work with the increased ranges these ships can now fight at.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#2708 - 2013-09-05 21:22:54 UTC
The problem is that TPs are insanely useful for missiles, yet CCP "gave" them to the wrong race.

Whoops.

They should have been given to Caldari from the start.
Bruised Mee
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2709 - 2013-09-05 21:24:50 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode.


I still think the web would benefit gunboat more than a TP but i suppose it could work .
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#2710 - 2013-09-05 21:32:01 UTC
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:
As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it. Big smile

70k?
scorch on a pulse apoc gets 90km. then add the bastion 25% to optimal/fall off and u have a 135km pulse paladin.

yer lookin at like 200km tachyon paly.
Cade Windstalker
#2711 - 2013-09-05 21:43:12 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:
As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it. Big smile

70k?
scorch on a pulse apoc gets 90km. then add the bastion 25% to optimal/fall off and u have a 135km pulse paladin.

yer lookin at like 200km tachyon paly.


25% stacking penalized. If you run the numbers on the Kronos Ytterbium posted that'll confirm for you.

Also is your 90km at Optimal + Falloff? Because that's half damage right there.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2712 - 2013-09-05 21:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Mer88 wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers.

Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE.
Or simply they don't have any clue.

Smile Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that.

Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for).

Always a silver lining. Smile


Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage.

Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against.

Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.



I think he meant while you will be slightly less tank in your paladin pve you will be more protected from suicide ganks as you will have a better omni tank where as a golem will have a huge em hole during their pve missioing while fighting angels or serpentis. most pve missioner wouldnt consider being suicide ganked while in a missiion in high sec so most likely most would not fit EM resist in their golem when fighting angel rats

Yep, granted that isn't a factor most take into consideration when outfitting their ships for PVE... although considering what a high profile target mission fitted Marauders are for suicide ganks it probably should be. Smile

I'd still take a Paladin over the others for this very reason... I have never, ever focused a PVE ship tank specific to the rats I will be fighting. Primarily because I have no need to (especially in a Marauder) and secondly I prefer to always use a PVP fit to take advantage of targets of opportunity (or avoid being one).

It's a mindset thing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2713 - 2013-09-05 21:49:56 UTC
Bruised Mee wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode.


I still think the web would benefit gunboat more than a TP but i suppose it could work .


alternately, instead of a passive tp bonus per skill, we could tie the tp to the bastion module like 50% bonus of tp effectiveness when bastion module is active. I think that gun boats need tracking the most when the ship is sitting still. And if they are sniping at 50km +, they wouldnt even need tp due to low trans vel. ships that gets into range 30km -10km the tp will make sure each shot will be a good one while being immobile lessoning the effect of not being able to move to lower the transverse. on the other hand , this might make the golem too OP Shocked
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2714 - 2013-09-05 22:26:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kasuko Merin wrote:
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


t2 res are kind of a big deal..

(Unless you are talking about pve in which case meh, irrelevant)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

GreenSeed
#2715 - 2013-09-05 22:27:16 UTC
web bonuses on a static/slow ship?

no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.

web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.

as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2716 - 2013-09-05 22:32:25 UTC
Put the F*ing Rep bonus back... a web bonus with a stationary ship is a stupid idea
Count Chamberlain
Doomheim
#2717 - 2013-09-05 22:34:56 UTC
in light of the recent proposed changes (removal of tanking bonus, adding of Useless Web bonus to a med to long range ship(s))

I would like a skill point re-fund.


This is not a re-balance, this is a Fluff up.
Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2718 - 2013-09-05 22:43:15 UTC
I was pretty optimistic when I read the first iteration of the proposed Marauder changes. It wasn't perfect, but it was interesting and innovative, and I could see all sorts of possibilities for creative use in solo and small gang PVP and high end PVE.

But the second iteration is just terrible. The T2 resists are nice, but not worth the cost. Bastion mode is now so gimped that it has no use other than providing ewar immunity in L4s, and all the L33T PVPers who are so enamored of the pointless web bonus and magical T2 resists on these painfully slow lumbering ships are forgetting that these ships STILL have frigate level sensor strength outside of the now even more suicidal Bastion mode. They will be permajammed by almost anything.



Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2719 - 2013-09-05 22:54:28 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
web bonuses on a static/slow ship?

no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.

web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.

as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.


lol you don't know what you are talking about. Web bonuses are great, especially on less mobile ships... But a range bonus would be better than the current proposal.

Also, I'm pretty sure a local rep will still be good enough due to the introduction of T2 resists.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2720 - 2013-09-05 22:57:14 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
web bonuses on a static/slow ship?

no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.

web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.

as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.


Web bonuses are jsut about the most OP bonus in the game

imho

BYDI recruitment closed-ish