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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2681 - 2013-09-05 20:23:10 UTC
The bastion Mod needs scripts.

This IMO will give us the ability to choose how we want to use the ships

.

I would first remove the web bonus from the hull.


Then i would have one script that increases the effectiveness of webbs and increases tracking/ explosion velocity for missiles


then have a script that increases the range of webs and velocity of missiles and optimal/falloff.

as for what to do with the remaining 4th bonus on the hulls?

i would look at each ship as see what thier niche is and give them a bonus in that direction.

if the kronos is dps then give it a rate of fire bonus

if the pal is lazors give it a tracking bonus

if the vargur is tanking then give it back its tanking bonus

if the golum is missiles then give it a missile velocity bonus (would make torps sick in bastion mode)

so now if you want to use range you can put in the range script and use long range webs and blasters

or if you are going close range you can swap for better close range web and tracking.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2682 - 2013-09-05 20:24:03 UTC
Ewersmen wrote:
Maaloc wrote:
And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game!


I like what this guy said .....^^^^

Wtf do I need webbers on my golem are you ******** .....F*u*c*K ccp just make another bs for you ******** bastion mode .

Gonna sell mine before there stuffed'

To many figjams on this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mzqk0BiP0C4
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#2683 - 2013-09-05 20:25:47 UTC
Velocity bonus to webs... on ships with long range as the primary focus... This makes no sense. T2 webs are only 9km range.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2684 - 2013-09-05 20:27:01 UTC
Ok, forget the web bonus for a moment. Given the proposal of leveraging the MJD+bastion combination in a sniping role, what exactly do you fit into the utility high slots? If you jump 100K away from the NPCs every 54 seconds, what can you fit into these slots that will have any effect besides tractors/salvagers with those only working out to 50% of the distance?


  • Auto Targeting
  • Drone Link Augmentor (for you single flight of lights)
  • Cloak
  • Nuet/NOS (25.5k range)
  • RR (9k range)
  • Energy Transfer (9k range)
  • Probe Launcher
  • Smart Bombs (6k range)


The cloak+probes could be useful leaving 1 slot open for tractor (tractor + salvager if not fitting bastion). The remaining items are so short ranged that if you are using the MJD to jump out and blap over and over they just don't make sense.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2685 - 2013-09-05 20:27:36 UTC
Trendafil wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
To quote this other post.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.


And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.



Role bonus: 100% Damage / T2 Resists

Battleship Bonus: 5% Damage and 10% Range (optimal / falloff / missile speed) per level
Marauder Bonus: 5% Rate of fire and 7.5% Tracking / Exp velocity

Bastion Module:
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% (as originaly posted with all the cooldowns and restrictions)

+50% Reduction in local rep cap consumption

PvE Out of Bastion:
High resists with high dmg projection will be the ship of choice for group content like incursions, WHs and so on.
PvP Out of Bastion:
High resists and high dmg projection, utility high slots to spare. Will give the other faction battleships good competition for a spot in the fleet.

PvE using Bastion:
Suited for solo or smaller groups. The improved resist profile and the repair boost will compensate for the lack or remote reps and make it a viable choice
PvP using Bastion:
Small gang and solo pvp


This way the ship will be viable choice for both PvP and PvE with or w/o the Bastion. If you want you have fun with friends grab a marauder w/o a Bastion module and have a logi with you. If you are alone, put a bastion and have all the tank you need to overcome the nasty NPCs.




wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#2686 - 2013-09-05 20:31:11 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
perhaps instead of the T2 resist , why not replace it with a flat 20% resist to all like a rattlesnake. ? this way everyone would be happier


I am happy with the tech II resist and it was about time that it happened. Tech II ships without tech II resist make little sense as that's half the point of the ship. That and some extra "specialization". They had to take a hit elsewhere to do it but such is life.

What we didn't ask for was a web bonus on the Golem...

It has a drone bay to deal with frigates (although another 25m3 would be welcomed) and it also has a TP bonus so if you're using the "correct" missiles it won't need (or at least has greatly reduced need for) the webs anyway.

On top of that 7 mids isn't enough for all of that anyway. Unless they bring back a high slot TP...then the user can choose to go that route or go for some tractor beams.
(\o/ for real utility highs!)

7 slots, ok...

So I assume at least 1 web, 1 TP, dual prop...there's 4...a shield booster, and boost amp now (so you can tank while out of bastion as well...), now only one mid left...

This is not good. What's going to happen is nobody will fit a web to a Golem anyway so they can use their mids for something a little more useful. Maybe an extra hardener or cap booster or even another TP. So now the ship has a "wasted" bonus that nobody cares about, isn't this one of the reasons for all this work in the first place?


xTru
Gladius Veritatis
Goonswarm Federation
#2687 - 2013-09-05 20:31:26 UTC
I want my marauder skill points back .
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2688 - 2013-09-05 20:33:43 UTC
xTru wrote:
I want my marauder skill points back .

lol
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2689 - 2013-09-05 20:36:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.

Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.

If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss.

If the entire design principle was based around MJD+Bastion then the ships are still flawed. No web range bonus means in "proper use" the webs go unused since you should be blapping anything before it gets in range. Yet we get this in place of the native tank bonus which complemented the bastion. The resists help with RR, but again, that isn't proper use since it negates the possibility of using the bastion. So by your logic incursions and RR strategies in high end DED's/WH's wasn't intended. You say I want an OP ship, yet the only place this will perform as intended is in solo, unkillable mission brick mode with a single configuration.

Edit: To clarify, an unkillable brick at ranges where an unkillable brick tank isn't needed. Though you can drop the MJD, and thus get your web usage back, but now you are either completely immobile or slow enough to still feel immobile.

Well, that's one reason why I don't feel the web bonus is wise.

Basically you can MJD away and snipe from range, moving on when anything gets near...
or MJD to range, kill all the tacklers on the way in, and then just stand your ground vs the larger stuff with your tanking bonuses.

Either way, the majority of your slots would not need to be devoted to tank. Instead they could be devoted to damage/damage application modules (I realize this is a bit counter intuitive to many mission runners, ratters, etc, but often more than a minimal tank would be sufficient). Even if you don't get all the tacklers, or if you start to get overwhelmed in damage (because you went a bit too lean on your tank) you just MJD away because NPC"s don't scram.

Fitting in this fashion should yield some pretty nice numbers in the gank dept.

Don't take my points personally, I'm not trying to be snarky at all. Your thoughts are well reasoned. In fact, also agree that this concept needs work to give it a cohesive focus. But either proposal could be used effectively vs. NPC's in most situations (except possibly Incursions) as is if needs be, and have a few PVP applications as well. But I'm with you, I think they could do better to make a sensible package out of it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2690 - 2013-09-05 20:36:43 UTC
xTru wrote:
I want my marauder skill points back .


^ This.

They were cool changed until the update Sad

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2691 - 2013-09-05 20:36:50 UTC
Mer88 wrote:


wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.


better at killing what?

does it do more potential dps? how does that dps apply?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2692 - 2013-09-05 20:43:41 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Mer88 wrote:


wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.


better at killing what?

does it do more potential dps? how does that dps apply?

Don't the both do the same damage with 8 effective launchers? Also the native bonus to explosion radius of the CNR is quite nice as either an alternative of or in addition to TP juggling.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2693 - 2013-09-05 20:45:44 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
xTru wrote:
I want my marauder skill points back .


^ This.

They were cool changed until the update Sad



Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2694 - 2013-09-05 20:46:30 UTC
instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode.
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2695 - 2013-09-05 20:50:11 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
xTru wrote:
I want my marauder skill points back .


^ This.

They were cool changed until the update Sad



Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it.


Damage bonus would fit in better with the range aspect that I think(?) CCP was going for with the original changes.

However, a tracking bonus would be useful too (for ships that don't already have one) in place of the web since they serve a similar purpose.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Luc Chastot
#2696 - 2013-09-05 20:53:45 UTC
I seriously feel confused. The proposed changes are a mix of long range and short range bonuses, in some case leaning towards short range, but then comes the MJD bonus. What's the concept behind this?

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
#2697 - 2013-09-05 20:56:06 UTC
Quote:
GOLEM

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.

Most PvEer's comments I've seen is "MJD out there and snipe those frigs"
Most Incursioners comments I've seen is "Get in there and web those frigs"

The Golem can do neither. Even with Cruise Missiles, the above bonuses, 2x Rigor IIs, 3x RBTPainters and 2x Domination Webs,.. and frigs heading straight towards me, I'm gettin' 423 DPS to 14km and 139 DBS to 45,.. from theoretically 8 Cruise Launchers.

With Torps as we all know,.. it'd be even worse!

Sure Gunnery Marauders can 1-Blap Frigs as they're barreling straight at you, a Vargur has little change in DPS between Frigs, Cruisers and BCs given the "straight at you" situation,.. which can be controlled and reset every 54-57 seconds. The Golem (in my experience) requires Light Drones to deal with frigates. Elite Frigates get pounded as EWAR happens,.. the rest are ignored until I vacuum up a mission site.

Please remove this Web Bonus on the Golem's Hull. While the Target Painting Bonus is useful against Cruisers+,.. the Web Bonus has no use on a ship that can't apply damage to frigates in the first place. A bonus to TORPEDO Velocity would be appreciated,.. because sure, applying Cruise Missile DPS ASAP is great,.. when your targetting range is only 250km,.. and your midslots are tied up with TPs and a new MJD, who has the room for a Sensor Booster.

Do as others have stated and put the web bonus in a script for the Bastion module, I really can't see how webbing frigates will benefit Large Missiles at all,..

Though if someone could point out how I COULD use Webs on frigates with Large Missiles,.. I'm all ears,..
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2698 - 2013-09-05 20:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grombutz
Luc Chastot wrote:
I seriously feel confused. The proposed changes are a mix of long range and short range bonuses, in some case leaning towards short range, but then comes the MJD bonus. What's the concept behind this?


MJD + falloff/optimal = longe range engagements.

IF things come close --> Serious tank + the ability to kill orbiting stuff with webs.

Clear?

At this point, I still think the golem should get web-range instead of the velocity modifier. Also - change the resist profiles on the Paladin for it's region-specific rats --> perfectly viable ships IMHO.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2699 - 2013-09-05 20:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Ranger 1 wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers.

Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE.
Or simply they don't have any clue.

Smile Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that.

Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for).

Always a silver lining. Smile


Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage.

Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that it's weaponry is good against.

Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.
blarggg
MuffinMen
#2700 - 2013-09-05 21:01:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
xTru wrote:
I want my marauder skill points back .


^ This.

They were cool changed until the update Sad



Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it.



agreed!

also i think i've seen over 100 post that ask for scripts on the module and i just skimmed so you can always give the web bonus on one of those? and one that allows movement or the ability to remote repair. just think of marauders with scrips as balanced versions of T3 ships, you can make 4 or 5 scripts with complimentary bonuses and everyone can have what they want.

1:Solo PVP
2: Fleet PVP
3: PVE +salvage
4: PVE blitz
5: Incursion(if fleet pvp doesn't work for it)