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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#1981 - 2013-09-04 16:19:24 UTC
So the only real thing which made them useful (the rep amount bonuses) is being replaced with something which only works if you're sat 10km away from the target in the first place (and by extension, scrammed).

Sorry but that's just dumb. These are not mobile ships. Jumping 100km away using MJD does nothing to close 40km on another ship, be it PVE or PVP.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1982 - 2013-09-04 16:20:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
So they can be bumped now like a regular battleship even when in Bastion? I thought the mass increase was to stop bumping, which has a hugely negative effect on tracking.

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1983 - 2013-09-04 16:20:24 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me


TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.

In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.

I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...


cool thing about the interdiction feild is that the mjd will still work.

so yes i will be using these quite often in stain doing lev iv missions. also for pve i more then likely will not have a tsb on but for pvp i will.

if you think you can find me by all means.

and honestly i dont mind loosing a mid slot. if it means i will survive.

i would envision PL taking advantage of these ships...

Titan Brige them in... go into siege and proceed to kill everything.

how much can a kronos tank anyways with a LAAR and faction tank? i would bet a bunch.



heh, I can see that it'll be a bit of fun and games. I have never flown with a hictor that didn't also carry a scrambler but ok. I can see that we'll have a bit of a game of "watch the bastion mode" in the same way POS gunners do with dreads. You'll still die.

But ok, It'll be a bit of fun. Big smile

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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1984 - 2013-09-04 16:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

Woah.

Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus... that's weaker than the current web bonus.

This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.

My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1985 - 2013-09-04 16:25:25 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

Woah.

Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus...

This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.

My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.


this, a thousand times this.

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luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1986 - 2013-09-04 16:26:50 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink




The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1987 - 2013-09-04 16:27:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS.

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1988 - 2013-09-04 16:28:49 UTC
Tech 2 resists are actually overall stronger than the proposed bastion module resists were. T2 resists give a 75% bonus to one resist and a 50% bonus to a second, for a total of 125%, while the module was only 120% total.

Vargurs just get more and more ridiculous for incursions. This is a threefold EHP and tanking increase for Vargurs against EM/Therm damage. You don't even need to bother with spider-tanking or ASBs anymore, you can just face tank it solo with a max gank setup.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1989 - 2013-09-04 16:29:08 UTC
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(

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Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1990 - 2013-09-04 16:30:18 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

Woah.

Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus...

This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.

My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.


this, a thousand times this.


Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1991 - 2013-09-04 16:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
luredivino wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink




The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair.

Yeah. Fine.

Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon.

There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. Instead of defined roles, we just went right back into "Pirate Battleships are better in every way, cheaper and need fewer skills because lol."

For the love of Gob, please bring back the first iteration.
Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
#1992 - 2013-09-04 16:31:09 UTC
could i suggest that like the command ships damnation and absolution

you make a second marauder based on your changes and leave my first gen paladin as it is.

copy and repeat for all the other races

Stick it on SISI and let the unwashed masses try it out. 1st gen against 2nd gen. cant be that hard to strap another hamster to the wheel.

stop re balancing and start evolving, let the races make improvements they would naturally make in ten years of research during times of war.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1993 - 2013-09-04 16:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP

For PVE:
Your rep power in Bastion mode is still greater than what they are now
Your resists will be higher than what they are now
All turrets and missiles will be able to hit small npcs due to web bonus(this solves smaller drone bay)

For PVP:
You can now properly buffer tank these ships without the Bastion module
You can have an ultra tank with the Bastion module on
You can lock down targets when Bastion mode is on/off
You can be bumped off the station/gate when in Bastion mode

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Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#1994 - 2013-09-04 16:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
Ravasta Helugo wrote:


Yeah. Fine.

Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon.

There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. Instead of defined roles, we just went right back into "Pirate Battleships are better in every way, cheaper and need fewer skills because lol."

For the love of Gob, please bring back the first iteration.



What nerF!? the paladin tank just went up a notch you got the 30% more overall resistances without fitting a single module now! which will stack with the bastion rep bonus when in bastion!

I think people are not reading the T2 resistances part O,o

or else some people fail at math, basically their tank just got buffed a lot! the Web will make ships like the golem, absolute kings of PVP! just imagine it, trap your enemy, web him, scram him, and then TORPEDO OBLITERAPE!

AND PVE wise means now you wont instant die once the bastion turns off because your passive tank is not dependand!

Also this change means they got a fixed EHP buff! which before they didn't have, thus making them paper thin tanks when travelling perfect for getting kamikaze killed.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1995 - 2013-09-04 16:34:47 UTC
and Again minmatar have 225% resists whilst the rest get much less why?????????????????????????????????

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1996 - 2013-09-04 16:38:34 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Tech 2 resists are actually overall stronger than the proposed bastion module resists were. T2 resists give a 75% bonus to one resist and a 50% bonus to a second, for a total of 125%, while the module was only 120% total.

Vargurs just get more and more ridiculous for incursions. This is a threefold EHP and tanking increase for Vargurs against EM/Therm damage. You don't even need to bother with spider-tanking or ASBs anymore, you can just face tank it solo with a max gank setup.

You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.

Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1997 - 2013-09-04 16:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Ager Agemo wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
luredivino wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink




The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair.

Yeah. Fine.

Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon.

There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. Instead of defined roles, we just went right back into "Pirate Battleships are better in every way, cheaper and need fewer skills because lol."

For the love of Gob, please bring back the first iteration.



What nerF!? the paladin tank just went up a notch you got the 30% more overall resistances without fitting a single module now! which will stack with the bastion rep bonus when in bastion!

2 Pages. Go back. Read.

The 30% non-stacking resist is GONE. So is the Paladin's current 7.5% per level rep bonus.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1998 - 2013-09-04 16:40:52 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.
Actually, not liking the change to add web bonuses, especially given your comments the other day that web bonuses weren't needed/had drones to kill frigs/blap them at range, etc.

Further, the removal of the non-stacking 30% bonus to tank is unfortunate. Unless you're going to radically rethink Pirate BSs (hint: DON'T!), there's little reason to use one over a Marauder. The two ship lines were unique, with Marauders having tank/projection going for them, while Pirate BSs had damage/application going for them. See? Two distinct uses for the ships. You've effectively made Maurauders on-par with Pirate BSs for the metrics that gave them an advantage over Marauders.

This is a step backward, and an unfortunate one at that.

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Zolian
Murderous Impulse
#1999 - 2013-09-04 16:42:16 UTC
The main issue I had with the previously proposed changes was the destruction of current functionality with the removal of the web bonuses.

This new proposal is both sensible and well thought out, I approve wholeheartedly.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2000 - 2013-09-04 16:42:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.

-1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.

The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.

The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.