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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

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Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#141 - 2013-08-01 22:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Witchking Angmar
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#142 - 2013-08-01 22:45:48 UTC
Please stop buffing active tanks until ogbs are removed. Any buff to active tanks just dramatically increases the benefits from ogbs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#143 - 2013-08-01 22:47:56 UTC
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Boosters (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Repairers (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)


nice, one thing though, the links are backwards, boosters takes you to reppers and vice versa

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#144 - 2013-08-01 22:49:56 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)


nice, one thing though, the links are backwards, boosters takes you to reppers and vice versa


Fixed.
Arkanon Nerevar
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2013-08-01 22:51:07 UTC
interesting changes, should add new elements in selecting ships for even small gangs, i think its biggest impact will be on armor rep bonus ships, even with these changes i see active shield tankers sticking with ASBs, but with armor.., new hyperion could now be very interesting gang warfare wise

considering the vast price differences i do agree with other comments that deadspace/officer boosters also need a smaller (7.5%) buff

Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-08-01 22:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)


Thank you for the work.

Huge difference indeed.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2013-08-01 23:19:33 UTC
i did not understand one crap..
so which one is better, armor reps or shield reps.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-08-01 23:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)

Under these numbers one point stands out above the rest and that is the HP/Cap/s
A T2 X-Large Shield Booster II has an meta-efficiency of .34. With skills at level 5 it is .38
A Large Armor Repairer II has a meta-efficiency of .15. With skills at level 5 it is .20
Less than half as efficient as a shield booster and this is the big problem between the two.
To make armor have a meta-efficiency of .34 without becoming OP the cap needs need to be reduced.

New HP 920 Cycle 15 Target Efficiency .38
920/15/.38 = 215 cap / cycle

Edit: Reworked efficiency with skills at level 5.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#149 - 2013-08-01 23:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Sweet, my archon can now tank 10 supers with links, drugs, rep rigs and implants. (We already have 2 pimp fit archons that can tank 3 nyxes for ~10 minutes).

Perhaps you should stop overlooking the carriers when you buff the reps because all the changes are overdoing it just a little.
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#150 - 2013-08-01 23:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Travasty Space
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)

Under these numbers one point stands out above the rest and that is the HP/Cap/s
A T2 X-Large Shield Booster II has an meta-efficiency of .34. With skills at level 5 it is .38
A Large Armor Repairer II has a meta-efficiency of .15. With skills at level 5 it is .20
Less than half as efficient as a shield booster and this is the big problem between the two.
To make armor have a meta-efficiency of .34 without becoming OP the cap needs need to be reduced.

New HP 920 Cycle 15 Target Efficiency .38
920/15/.38 = 215 cap / cycle

Edit: Reworked efficiency with skills at level 5.


Your missing the point of armor vs shield on local tanks. Shield gets the stronger Burst tank but harder to keep running(400 cap every 5 seconds on T2 X-large) vs stronger sustained tank for Armor(400 cap every 15 secondsfor T2 large). Now obv people having been working on ways around this(medium boosters) but that is the two themes of tank. It is why you see more videos of Armor tanking kronos' etc. then of shield boosting ships.

Edit: the ASB vs AAR gives more to that point. You have really strong burst with the ASB but then nothing. Whereas the AAR gives a strong tank and either a weaker continued tank or reload.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-08-01 23:49:54 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:
i did not understand one crap..
so which one is better, armor reps or shield reps.


Shields all day, at least for now and while the silliness of dead space shield boosters exist.

The best HP/cap/s for shield boosters is 0.84, the best number for armor reps is not even at half of 0.84

If you factor a T2 shield boost amplifier then the HP/cap/sec becomes beyond silly.

If you factor DS SBA it's even worst

If you pick a ship with enough mid slots, rep bonus, implants, combat boosters, OGB and dead space SBA+SB you see the picture.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-08-01 23:53:24 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)

Under these numbers one point stands out above the rest and that is the HP/Cap/s
A T2 X-Large Shield Booster II has an meta-efficiency of .34. With skills at level 5 it is .38
A Large Armor Repairer II has a meta-efficiency of .15. With skills at level 5 it is .20
Less than half as efficient as a shield booster and this is the big problem between the two.
To make armor have a meta-efficiency of .34 without becoming OP the cap needs need to be reduced.

New HP 920 Cycle 15 Target Efficiency .38
920/15/.38 = 215 cap / cycle

Edit: Reworked efficiency with skills at level 5.


Your missing the point of armor vs shield on local tanks.

I didn't miss the point at all, hence the reason I am suggesting a cap reduction for armor repairers rather than a HP boost or a cycle time reduction .
Quote:

Edit: the ASB vs AAR gives more to that point. You have really strong burst with the ASB but then nothing. Whereas the AAR gives a strong tank and either a weaker continued tank or reload.

The AAR was designed as a burst tanking module for armor tanking.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#153 - 2013-08-01 23:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Witchking Angmar wrote:
Numbers for armor repairers as requested by Sergeant Acht Scultz.


Repairers (http://tny.cz/ab131103)

Boosters (http://tny.cz/c1fe6783)

Under these numbers one point stands out above the rest and that is the HP/Cap/s
A T2 X-Large Shield Booster II has an meta-efficiency of .34. With skills at level 5 it is .38
A Large Armor Repairer II has a meta-efficiency of .15. With skills at level 5 it is .20
Less than half as efficient as a shield booster and this is the big problem between the two.
To make armor have a meta-efficiency of .34 without becoming OP the cap needs need to be reduced.

New HP 920 Cycle 15 Target Efficiency .38
920/15/.38 = 215 cap / cycle

Edit: Reworked efficiency with skills at level 5.

I was afraid of this kind of reaction in front of these numbers ; but active shield and armor don't relate axactly the same in ship fitting, and this stat (hp/GJ/s) mean nothing real and is only an indicator.

Main differences between shield and armor is that shield have more ways to improve cap efficiency but less ways to improve the already good burst efficiency whereas armor is the reverse. The second thing is that the best way to compare both tank is more dual rep vs SB+SBA than rep vs SB. But then, the comparison rapidly become really difficult because of combination number.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-08-01 23:57:08 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Edit: the ASB vs AAR gives more to that point. You have really strong burst with the ASB but then nothing. Whereas the AAR gives a strong tank and either a weaker continued tank or reload.



Well AAR is nothing too because once you used all your charges you have no cap left anyway and AAR doesn't rep while reloading like ASB.

Now if you fit a 3mids armor ship with a cap booster instead of web yep you're going to rep a little bit (ridiculous amount) but also remember your AAR is only interesting over a regular rep when you overload it.
If you don't overload then you're using cap+nanites for a ridiculous amount or reps and still using cap booster charges, to add insult to injury you can't overload for all fight without loosing your rep which means again, you're using cap for a ridiculous amount of reps.

AAR is cool for sneaky prots/legions/armor lokis , hit&run, cool in frigates unless you're fighting hawks and blarpies with medium ASB's, cool when you are double rep fit or triple to provide a small boost when OH but it's way too much hassle compared with ASB.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-08-02 00:11:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The second thing is that the best way to compare both tank is more dual rep vs SB+SBA than rep vs SB. But then, the comparison rapidly become really difficult because of combination number.


That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#156 - 2013-08-02 00:19:21 UTC
CHRISTMAS CAME EARLY THIS YEAR

**** YEAH

And Sergeant, shield scrubs don't have RAH

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#157 - 2013-08-02 00:31:58 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

I'm not saying they are well balanced and we live in a perfect world but that when you compare a complete fit with 2*LAR2 + rigs vs XLSB2+SBA2+rig then the differences decrease a lot. Just try it. And the CPU cost of XLSB+SBA is not to forget.

But then I actually don't have a clue about faction/officer/deadspace modules and I'm only talking about T2 balance.
Serenity Zipher
#158 - 2013-08-02 00:38:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie, please!!! reduce the cap usage of medium and large Armour reps, they are unsustainable, especially after training the repair systems skill to 5.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#159 - 2013-08-02 00:41:28 UTC
I heartily applaud the improvement to armor, especially the AAR, it needed the love. Good change overall.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Oberus MacKenzie
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#160 - 2013-08-02 00:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberus MacKenzie
Serenity Zipher wrote:
CCP Fozzie, please!!! reduce the cap usage of medium and large Armour reps, they are unsustainable, especially after training the repair systems skill to 5.


They're not supposed to be sustainable.

Good changes, except for the sly little shield nerf in there. Minmatar at least have their speed to help them tank damage, so it's not so bad for them, but the Caldari just get more and more useless by the day...
Seriously, are you guys gonna give SP refunds for our Caldari ship skills?