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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

First post
Author
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#161 - 2013-08-02 00:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

I'm not saying they are well balanced and we live in a perfect world but that when you compare a complete fit with 2*LAR2 + rigs vs XLSB2+SBA2+rig then the differences decrease a lot. Just try it. And the CPU cost of XLSB+SBA is not to forget.

But then I actually don't have a clue about faction/officer/deadspace modules and I'm only talking about T2 balance.

I did ETF those configurations and the resulting was shield boosting was more cap efficient but both were the same HP/sec.
Which brings me back to the point of reduce the cap needs of armor repairers.
Edit:I used the same ship so the capacitor numbers would not be off, the difference was 7gj/s with shield boosting at about 56 and armor at 63gj/s.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Oberus MacKenzie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-08-02 00:56:31 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

I'm not saying they are well balanced and we live in a perfect world but that when you compare a complete fit with 2*LAR2 + rigs vs XLSB2+SBA2+rig then the differences decrease a lot. Just try it. And the CPU cost of XLSB+SBA is not to forget.

But then I actually don't have a clue about faction/officer/deadspace modules and I'm only talking about T2 balance.

I did ETF those configurations and the resulting was shield boosting was more cap efficient but both were the same HP/sec.
Which brings me back to the point of reduce the cap needs of armor repairers.


If you look at capital mods and remote repair, armor is a lot more cap efficient than shield. Also something to consider is that armor can still pack a much better buffer tank than shields, have higher native resists, get a greater benefit from damage controls and have EANM's which use no capacitor, whereas the Invuln uses quite a bit.
I think in the grand scheme of things it evens out. I mean come on, shield has to have an advantage over armor in something, right?
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-08-02 01:16:45 UTC
Oberus MacKenzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

I'm not saying they are well balanced and we live in a perfect world but that when you compare a complete fit with 2*LAR2 + rigs vs XLSB2+SBA2+rig then the differences decrease a lot. Just try it. And the CPU cost of XLSB+SBA is not to forget.

But then I actually don't have a clue about faction/officer/deadspace modules and I'm only talking about T2 balance.

I did ETF those configurations and the resulting was shield boosting was more cap efficient but both were the same HP/sec.
Which brings me back to the point of reduce the cap needs of armor repairers.


If you look at capital mods and remote repair, armor is a lot more cap efficient than shield. Also something to consider is that armor can still pack a much better buffer tank than shields, have higher native resists, get a greater benefit from damage controls and have EANM's which use no capacitor, whereas the Invuln uses quite a bit.
I think in the grand scheme of things it evens out. I mean come on, shield has to have an advantage over armor in something, right?



DPS and speed usually.

That said, I like the balance between armor and shield at the moment tbh
NaK'Lin
x13
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2013-08-02 01:19:25 UTC
I see were Armor and shield tanks are different. Also, I fly both of them. I like both of them, and I like their differences.
EvE was a sandbox once upon a time, and we are getting to a place where everything is becoming vanilla and balanced out to be equal; in the end, we'll fly the ships we like by their looks because it won't matter, it'll be no different than any other ship. I've seen this in other games; which is why I don't play them anymore.

Active shield tanks are in no way inferior to armor tanks. I can get my maelstrom to tank insane amounts with a deadspace booster. Amounts that any of my armor tanked ships dreams about. It is more than just the module. So when CCP will boost Shield tanks to the point that they think its "balanced", will they then wake up and realize that shield tanking has an implant set for it and armor doesn't? Oups.

Plug your crystals, gents, and you won't regret doing it.
Hell, with boosts and bluepill a tengu can tank roughly 8k DPS omni in a very ******** way while boasting 530dps and fitting a point and a prop and be fully pvp-viable. I can't get tank on armor ships, not even with boost and pills.
So where is the problem?
The Hyperion is an armor tanker.. it can now tank "like a beast". Great. also needs to pack 3 reppers to do that and will only do 500-700ish dps.
Currently I tank better in a maelstrom with crystals. plus, i get the same or more DPS because my lows are free.
Armor tankers have to trade dps and range. Not enough they are slow as derp.

Maybe people should stop whining so much and maybe then a game that was awesome because of many strange mechanics made it such a sweet place where players had to be a little ingenuous to come up with ways to utilize things, instead of being catered crap.

One last note: Boosting shield reps and NOT boosting deadspace mods is plain intellectually challenged. Might as well remove them from the game then. The difference between the T2 x-large and a gist x-x large has been cut so much it isn't funny anymore. It'll only be viable now due to fitting reqs and cap usage. but surely not for its reps over T2.
Stop tinkering with values in a database and give us a real expansion.
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2013-08-02 01:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: maCH'EttE
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
That would be true if SB+SBA were the equivalent of double armor reps but in fact this is very easy to verify it's impossible to compare or, how can you compare twice drawbacks (and not little ones) twice huge amounts of PG/CAP to 1 module using 1/3rd if not 1/4 the cap 4x faster cycling and a module using no cap ridiculous CPU/PG and ridiculous drawbacks?

There's no comparison possible, even if you pick a T2 rig + AR vs SB+SBA we're far away from anything comparable, shield modules are way out of whack for ages, numerous threads about this for ages and there's a verifiable reason for this: once you can fly all sub cap ships and fit them you understand quickly what are the "I win buttons"

It's really not for fun or because armor is so awesome armor ships often fit shieldmods except for large fleets, well except Baltec Lol
Even with mediocre number of mid slots you can push stronger ships than armor fitted, if you don't see an issue here but creativity I have to disagree with you. I'd see some creativity if the difference was made by player skill and not completely OP modules.

I'm not saying they are well balanced and we live in a perfect world but that when you compare a complete fit with 2*LAR2 + rigs vs XLSB2+SBA2+rig then the differences decrease a lot. Just try it. And the CPU cost of XLSB+SBA is not to forget.

But then I actually don't have a clue about faction/officer/deadspace modules and I'm only talking about T2 balance.

I did ETF those configurations and the resulting was shield boosting was more cap efficient but both were the same HP/sec.
Which brings me back to the point of reduce the cap needs of armor repairers.
Edit:I used the same ship so the capacitor numbers would not be off, the difference was 7gj/s with shield boosting at about 56 and armor at 63gj/s.

adding more cap will not work.
usually people fly either ammar or gal ships for armor tanks, do you know why it wont help that much if more cap is given.
Nuets.
shield boosters have that advantage, try taking cap from a sliep, he gonna look at you and think your stupid, cuz you really are not doing anything efficent except burning your own pg. Whats the point of nueting sliep if he does not need cap at all for guns or for the shield boosts.
And lets not forget the implants that are available for shield boosters..Crystals baby.
Ohh wait, there are none for armor rep ships.
Kai Pirinha
#166 - 2013-08-02 01:47:49 UTC
I'm not quite sure if it has been mentioned yet, but what about Hull Repairers?
Are they going to be buffed as well and can we get links for them too? LolLolLolLol

Hello World

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#167 - 2013-08-02 01:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Incursus will be OP. Consider turning down the frigate skill bonus down slightly.

Edit: but then again so will the Breacher. Let's see.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#168 - 2013-08-02 02:02:42 UTC
I am 50/50 on this.

On one hand, T2 small shield boosters and T2 large shield boosters are so worthless for anything at the moment it is hilarious. Who ever fits them to anything? You may as well go an ASB, refit for medium or XL, or go pimp. So this is good.

XL boosters seem fine at the moment, given they fit on everything from cruisers (Moa) to BC's (Cyclone/Sleip) to BS's (Mael). The former would go an XL-ASB, the latter can do XL vanilla and still get a reasonable tan. Is 15% more going to matter? For the Moa, yes. Cyclone/Sleip with vanilla XL booster...definitely. The Maelstrom...not so much.

Faction boosters are also OK. There's a variety, and uses for most (but not all) flavours of boosters on various fits. Narrowing the gaps with deadspace will see faction booster prices increase in some cases (DG LSB) and stay the same for others (CN smalls, eg, due to Pith A smalls being cap misers on the 2 Small Pith-A SB Tengu). This is in effect a buff to LP and low/null mission income and some missioner income, which is fine; people will cash LPs differently and choose different agents and corporations, which is a Good Thing.

Armour-wise...active armour tanks on frigates are already pretty damn good. However, we really, really need to take this in the context of the Command Ship changes. Active armour is more often the tanking method advantaged by OGB's in frig and cruiser combat. Very little is done to run Tengu links for active shield or buffer shield fleets - it is better to run skirmish for shield fleets as the sig benefit and mobility benefits for shield nano fleets are additive but buffing tank alone just defeats the purpose. ie; better to have 32km point 43% extra speed and 37% less sig than...bugger all more resists and slightly better Scythe or osprey reps.

This is not true for Armour frigs/cruisers where you already have a lower sig, and just need the rep and resist and buffer bonuses of a Legion/Damnation link. You can, in fact, make semi-active armour cruisers and frigs work. 1600 plate + MAAR AHAC is a thing and it works damn fine....does it need a 15% boost? To my mind, maybe not.

This doesn't hold true for BS's, where active BS tanks are as a rule, horrible for PVP. Even 15% is barely addressing the issue, even if you add gang links. You will still have to take drugs, and it's more effective to bring logi. Active armour tanks come nowhere near matching the DPS of one opponent of equal size, whereas in shield you can do Maelstroms which can tank one opponent easily.

So, not a panacea, but in some areas definitely a step in the right direction. But that's obvious; blanket changes don't address the red-headed step children.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#169 - 2013-08-02 02:05:47 UTC
Kai Pirinha wrote:
I'm not quite sure if it has been mentioned yet, but what about Hull Repairers?
Are they going to be buffed as well and can we get links for them too? LolLolLolLol


How about halving the cycle time, CPU cost and activation cost? Do you know how long it takes to rep the hull on a carrier after you've survived a super hotdrop? Clue: 3.5 hours.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-08-02 02:21:09 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Incursus will be OP. Consider turning down the frigate skill bonus down slightly.


With AB and SAAR running the incursus gets about 50 seconds of cap life before capping right out. It's pretty strong in the opening of an engagement but it's still not going to be OP.
Zappity
Kurved Trading
#171 - 2013-08-02 02:32:05 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Incursus will be OP. Consider turning down the frigate skill bonus down slightly.


With AB and SAAR running the incursus gets about 50 seconds of cap life before capping right out. It's pretty strong in the opening of an engagement but it's still not going to be OP.


That's a reasonable point. Just over a minute. My initial response is that if a frigate fight with the Incursus goes for longer than 30 seconds you have failed anyway. If you dictate range you will win by gank.

But yeah, cap is a pretty big balancing limitation which is already firmly in place.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Moksa Elodie
Hijo de la Luna
#172 - 2013-08-02 02:41:43 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:


One last note: Boosting shield reps and NOT boosting deadspace mods is plain intellectually challenged. Might as well remove them from the game then. The difference between the T2 x-large and a gist x-x large has been cut so much it isn't funny anymore. It'll only be viable now due to fitting reqs and cap usage. but surely not for its reps over T2.
Stop tinkering with values in a database and give us a real expansion.


I agree with you on this, certain deadspace shield boosters do need looking at in regards to this change.

Possibly a small increase in cap usage alongside a shield boost amount?

Also a few charts would be nice Blink
Endeavour Starfleet
#173 - 2013-08-02 04:05:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
blarggg wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Will this apply to repair drones also? (Would be nice with maybe a bit more than 15% on drones imho)

Is it going to be on all meta levels, and could some minor gradient balance be considered?




I didn't see any responses to this guys drone question so i figured i quote to make it get noticed.

Will drones get +15% repair amount? (or +22.137% based on arbitrary math)


Not as part of this change no.


Would you please consider making it part of this change then? These drones are underpowered in my opinion.
Naomi Anthar
#174 - 2013-08-02 04:21:49 UTC
You have no idea how happy i'm about this change. Glad they decided to skip pith/gist boosters. They are op as hell. Now that i have more than 40 deadspace local reps :PP. Will put them to good use or sell for reasonable price (hopefully it will increase).

Anyway change is good . Especially that SAAR was already somehow good. Now for once i won't complain at all. Armor local reps are now giving enough hp tanked per second - and that was major drawback vs shield boosters.

Not sure if that is enough or still needs tweaking. Need to test this stuff out , before i set my mind .


But absolutely big +1. Keep good work CCP.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-08-02 04:22:24 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
I see were Armor and shield tanks are different. Also, I fly both of them. I like both of them, and I like their differences.
EvE was a sandbox once upon a time, and we are getting to a place where everything is becoming vanilla and balanced out to be equal; in the end, we'll fly the ships we like by their looks because it won't matter, it'll be no different than any other ship. I've seen this in other games; which is why I don't play them anymore.

Active shield tanks are in no way inferior to armor tanks. I can get my maelstrom to tank insane amounts with a deadspace booster. Amounts that any of my armor tanked ships dreams about. It is more than just the module. So when CCP will boost Shield tanks to the point that they think its "balanced", will they then wake up and realize that shield tanking has an implant set for it and armor doesn't? Oups.

Plug your crystals, gents, and you won't regret doing it.
Hell, with boosts and bluepill a tengu can tank roughly 8k DPS omni in a very ******** way while boasting 530dps and fitting a point and a prop and be fully pvp-viable. I can't get tank on armor ships, not even with boost and pills.
So where is the problem?
The Hyperion is an armor tanker.. it can now tank "like a beast". Great. also needs to pack 3 reppers to do that and will only do 500-700ish dps.
Currently I tank better in a maelstrom with crystals. plus, i get the same or more DPS because my lows are free.
Armor tankers have to trade dps and range. Not enough they are slow as derp.

Maybe people should stop whining so much and maybe then a game that was awesome because of many strange mechanics made it such a sweet place where players had to be a little ingenuous to come up with ways to utilize things, instead of being catered crap.

One last note: Boosting shield reps and NOT boosting deadspace mods is plain intellectually challenged. Might as well remove them from the game then. The difference between the T2 x-large and a gist x-x large has been cut so much it isn't funny anymore. It'll only be viable now due to fitting reqs and cap usage. but surely not for its reps over T2.
Stop tinkering with values in a database and give us a real expansion.

Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2013-08-02 04:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvanium Orlenard
Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.

Armor Reppers are CAP intensive

MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.

Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)


Am I the only one that sees the problem?
Naomi Anthar
#177 - 2013-08-02 04:44:49 UTC
Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:
Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.

Armor Reppers are CAP intensive

MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.

Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)


Am I the only one that sees the problem?


Yes the only one ... keep in mind that reps doesnt slow or increase signature of ship as buffer. Also they consume less pwg than plate for example. That's right there are advantages too going for local reps vs buffer. Not only that but also they provide more ehp - should you live long enough to benefit from it (fair trade i guess).

If all i think gallente ships are too strong now, not too weak as you try to say. They are very strong on battleship level ... if not strongest atm. They are powerhouse among capitals aswell. Damn they are strong everywhere - including small gang pvp where they are strong as always.

I'm actually thinking that it's time to reduce rep bonus (it wasn't op but now is) to 5-6% per level. Ships like incursus are already almost immortal as long as they have cap (with cap booster its VERY long)
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#178 - 2013-08-02 05:01:31 UTC
Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:
Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.

Armor Reppers are CAP intensive

MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.

Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)


Am I the only one that sees the problem?



Yes, you are. Rest of us fit cap boosters.

.

Pseudo Ucksth
Camellia Void Cartographics
#179 - 2013-08-02 05:11:34 UTC
I only saw one person bring it up but it seems like a pretty important question:

Are reps firing at the beginning/end of a cycle getting looked at? A change to this could greatly change the armor meta, especially RR and fleet doctrines that rely on armor logi
Cristy Hashur
Animal Control Department
LEM Alliance
#180 - 2013-08-02 05:26:05 UTC
nice CCP
really nice!

overboost cap reps its really what we need

such as shield-tanked moros or vertical naglfar with 70-90k dps tankin'!

its cool

MORE!
MORE!

haha