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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

First post
Author
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#501 - 2013-08-23 23:51:49 UTC
Lady Manus wrote:
The proposed changes for Shield boosters are overall bad imho,

While the gist boosters are already good, pith boosters are getting a major nerf, prices already dropped to almost nothing and no one will ever use those after 1.1.

Please reconsider: remove all shiedl boosters bonus or give pith boosters at least 15% or, better, 20-25% bonus to large and x-large ones.

LM


Ridiculous. Gist shield boosters are already 4x the capacitor efficiency of all other local repair modules. They are very overpowered and need to be nerfed.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#502 - 2013-08-27 16:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Here is a question I'd like to have answered by Fozzie or Rise, ect. Why do the corpum/centum armor reppers have the same cap efficiency as the corelums but rep around 12-13% more?

Corpum A-type Medium Armor rep: 538 hp for 180 cap, or 2.99 hp per cap

Corelum A-Type Medium Armor rep: 478 hp for 160 cap, or 2.99 hp per cap



I think now would be the perfect time to mix up the different types of dead space reppers to each be a bit different but not simply better.

As an example, Corpum could be higher hp/s with lower hp per cap, Centum could be a middle ground lineup, offering average cap/s as well as average hp per cap, and Corelum could be a high efficiency module similar (but not as overpowered) to Gist shield boosters.

Some more flexibility in being able to "tune" your ship in the high end of modules would be much appreciated, thanks! Big smile
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#503 - 2013-08-27 19:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Witchking Angmar
Why do you buff Minmatar type faction boosters more than you do Caldari type, in comparison to the respective meta11 and higher? That is, you lessen the gap between Minmatar type faction and meta11+ while widening the gap for Caldari. This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. To further illustrate:

Caldari faction: 600HP → 630HP
Caldari meta11: 660HP → 726HP
Difference: 10% → 15.238%

Minmatar faction: 480HP → 552HP
Minmatar meta11: 525HP → 577.5HP
Difference: 9.375% → 4.620%

In essence you make the Caldari meta11+ better in comparison to the Caldari faction while making Minmatar meta11+ worse in comparison to Minmatar faction. Now i don't mind changing the differences between Minmatar and Caldari, but why change each group internally? It feels to me like all this was previously calculated using a constant function of the meta level, whereas what you are doing here mostly seems like arbitrarily throwing multipliers on arbitrarily chosen categories.
Jade ID-900
Oromov Industries
Oromov Conglomerate
#504 - 2013-08-28 05:05:27 UTC
Wait, wouldn't that change pretty significantly shift the balance between armor rep/shield boosting ships and armor plated/ shield extended ships?

Does a plated FW Tristan have to fight Incursus'es with 350EHP active tank per sec, rather than the 300EHP from now on?

If so, that seems a pretty weird and unbalanced change to me. What am I missing? I thought the reason was to make armor and shield reps more balanced, but not affect active and passive tank by doing so.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#505 - 2013-08-28 08:26:27 UTC
As I see it, there are two underlying drivers for this change:

1. over time, ship dps output has risen whereas local tank has not
2. ASBs are highly overpowered, overshadowing all other forms lof local tank

This has left ASB as the only (except in rare cases) viable local tank solution.

There are 2 ways to resolve this:

1. scale back ship output dps to original levels, and reduce the effectiveness of ASBs, or
2. raise other forms of local tank to bring them into line

Getting local tanks right is very difficult. There is a very fine line between a tank being not enough to survive a sensible amount of time in an uneven contest, and being unbreakable in a 1v1.

Fortunately, local tanks require more cap than a pvp ship can generate, forcing the ship to burn cap boosters. Thus an upper limit on effective EHP is established through the product of the ship's resistances, the size of booster it burns and the size of the cargo hold.

If you want to reduce it's eEHP, energy neutralisers are the answer.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#506 - 2013-08-28 08:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
^This

As long there is no Kind of Ewar like Neuts to Local repairer, the Buffer Tank is always in an advantage because Most fights without Logi Support will end so quickly that the Cycle wont Run through until you pop.

Remember you can outdamage the local repairer with dps, neut their cap or simply Alpha them out their ship.
Which can a Puffer Tank nearly ignore...
Rekon X
Doomheim
#507 - 2013-08-30 22:52:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Judas II wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the rep amount for all armor repairers (including AARs) by 15%
  • Increase the shield bonus of all shield boosters (except for deadspace/officer reps and ASBs) by 15%

  • Daft question, are faction Shield boosters buffed or not? (Dread Guristas, Pith A/B/C/X-type etc etc)


    Faction boosters like Dread Guristas are buffed, Deadspace boosters like Pith are not.



    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the shield bonus of Large Deadspace/Officer, X-Large Deadspace/Officer shield boosters by 10%

  • Let us know what you think!



    So I take it Pith "are" included in this now? They are listed as deadspace ingame under metagroup.




    Do we have any updates on this? Changes going into effect in 4 days and no updates since Aug 7?



    Large Shield Booster II 240hp for 160gj = 1.5 hp / gj
    Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster 312hp for 160gj = 1.95 hp / gj

    After change @ 15%

    Large Shield Booster II 276hp for 160gj = 1.725 hp / gj

    Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew

    Mournful Conciousness
    Embers Children
    TOHA Conglomerate
    #508 - 2013-08-30 22:59:32 UTC
    Rekon X wrote:

    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the shield bonus of Large Deadspace/Officer, X-Large Deadspace/Officer shield boosters by 10%

  • Let us know what you think!



    So I take it Pith "are" included in this now? They are listed as deadspace ingame under metagroup.




    Do we have any updates on this? Changes going into effect in 4 days and no updates since Aug 7?



    When he said, "let us know what you think", you will notice that he did not make a specific promise to act upon or respond to what you think.

    It's like a manager saying, "my door is always open". It is open, but waste his f*cking time by going in there and giving him your worthless opinion on anything other than the awesomeness of his five point plan will just have him reaching for the HR guide to firing troublesome little sh*ts faster than you can blink.

    Blink

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Rekon X
    Doomheim
    #509 - 2013-08-30 23:15:49 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Rekon X wrote:

    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the shield bonus of Large Deadspace/Officer, X-Large Deadspace/Officer shield boosters by 10%

  • Let us know what you think!



    So I take it Pith "are" included in this now? They are listed as deadspace ingame under metagroup.




    Do we have any updates on this? Changes going into effect in 4 days and no updates since Aug 7?



    When he said, "let us know what you think", you will notice that he did not make a specific promise to act upon or respond to what you think.

    It's like a manager saying, "my door is always open". It is open, but waste his f*cking time by going in there and giving him your worthless opinion on anything other than the awesomeness of his five point plan will just have him reaching for the HR guide to firing troublesome little sh*ts faster than you can blink.

    Blink



    But when he said Pith was not included was Aug 1, and changed the main thread Aug 7.

    By the post Deadspace Large and X-Large (which includes Pith, Gist) will be buffed 10%.

    No buff would make deadspace mods of little value.

    Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew

    Mournful Conciousness
    Embers Children
    TOHA Conglomerate
    #510 - 2013-08-30 23:24:21 UTC
    Rekon X wrote:

    But when he said Pith was not included was Aug 1, and changed the main thread Aug 7.

    By the post Deadspace Large and X-Large (which includes Pith, Gist) will be buffed 10%.

    No buff would make deadspace mods of little value.


    None of that matters. While Gist shield boosters retain their OP ability to convert cap to shields at twice the efficiency of any other type, all other shield boosters are obsolete - as is armour tanking, even with a bonused ship.

    Even that does not matter. While the ASB remains the most cap-efficient, fastest boosting module in the entire game, even after this little change, all other tanks are obsolete.


    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Jerick Ludhowe
    Internet Tuff Guys
    #511 - 2013-08-30 23:48:32 UTC
    Rekon X wrote:


    But when he said Pith was not included was Aug 1, and changed the main thread Aug 7.

    By the post Deadspace Large and X-Large (which includes Pith, Gist) will be buffed 10%.

    No buff would make deadspace mods of little value.


    Pith Yes, Gist no

    Gist are already super OP in terms of hp/cap...

    X-Large Shield Booster t2: 600/400 1.5 hp/cap 150hp/sec
    Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster: 620/196 3.06 hp/cap 155hp/sec
    Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster: 780/400 1.95 hp/cap 195hp/sec


    Omitting the Gist line of Dead Space Shield boosters from the +10% would go a long ways in bringing these modules inline with the rest.
    Little Dragon Khamez
    Guardians of the Underworld
    #512 - 2013-09-01 20:32:14 UTC
    Does this mean we get our resists pushed back up to 5% per level? The whole reason why they were nerfed was because local rep bonuses somehow performed badly in comparison. Local reps are having a massive buff and by the same circular logic identified in this thread

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224880

    If you reverse the math it can now be seen that Local Rep bonuses are more powerful than resist bonuses.

    Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

    Omnathious Deninard
    Ministry of Silly Walks.
    Parasitic Legion.
    #513 - 2013-09-01 21:39:06 UTC
    Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
    Does this mean we get our resists pushed back up to 5% per level? The whole reason why they were nerfed was because local rep bonuses somehow performed badly in comparison. Local reps are having a massive buff and by the same circular logic identified in this thread

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224880

    If you reverse the math it can now be seen that Local Rep bonuses are more powerful than resist bonuses.

    This change was in response to booster resists getting nerfed by 10% and was done to compensate local reps for the lost resist.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #514 - 2013-09-06 11:45:50 UTC
    Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
    Does this mean we get our resists pushed back up to 5% per level? The whole reason why they were nerfed was because local rep bonuses somehow performed badly in comparison. Local reps are having a massive buff and by the same circular logic identified in this thread

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224880

    If you reverse the math it can now be seen that Local Rep bonuses are more powerful than resist bonuses.



    THe ammount of bonus in the local repairer is IRRELEVANT in the dispute between Local repair bonus and resit bonus, sicen the resist bonus Also applies over the same values.

    THE fact remaisn that Local repair bonus MUST be stronger, because they are more focused and less versatile than resist ones!

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    Mournful Conciousness
    Embers Children
    TOHA Conglomerate
    #515 - 2013-09-06 12:16:13 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
    Does this mean we get our resists pushed back up to 5% per level? The whole reason why they were nerfed was because local rep bonuses somehow performed badly in comparison. Local reps are having a massive buff and by the same circular logic identified in this thread

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224880

    If you reverse the math it can now be seen that Local Rep bonuses are more powerful than resist bonuses.



    THe ammount of bonus in the local repairer is IRRELEVANT in the dispute between Local repair bonus and resit bonus, sicen the resist bonus Also applies over the same values.

    THE fact remaisn that Local repair bonus MUST be stronger, because they are more focused and less versatile than resist ones!


    ^^^ this.

    To reiterate:

    for local tank, resist bonus helps and local repair bonus helps
    for logi tank, resist bonus helps, local repair bonus does not help
    for buffer tank and alpha resistance, resist bonus helps, local repair bonus does not help.

    Local repair bonus is a niche bonus that pigeonholes the ship into the role of small gang brawler. The resist bonus is an all-round bonus to effectiveness under all circumstances - even when the ship is out of cap.

    Therefore it makes sense that local rep bonuses are more powerful - they are a specialisation.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Nocturnal Phantom
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #516 - 2013-09-23 16:00:21 UTC
    Yay... Local reps are getting a buff; and if only the T3 Legion's would get a DPS buff... I would only be on cloud-9 drinking genatonics' then... A man can dream...
    Little Dragon Khamez
    Guardians of the Underworld
    #517 - 2013-09-23 20:41:29 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
    Does this mean we get our resists pushed back up to 5% per level? The whole reason why they were nerfed was because local rep bonuses somehow performed badly in comparison. Local reps are having a massive buff and by the same circular logic identified in this thread

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224880

    If you reverse the math it can now be seen that Local Rep bonuses are more powerful than resist bonuses.



    THe ammount of bonus in the local repairer is IRRELEVANT in the dispute between Local repair bonus and resit bonus, sicen the resist bonus Also applies over the same values.

    THE fact remaisn that Local repair bonus MUST be stronger, because they are more focused and less versatile than resist ones!


    ^^^ this.

    To reiterate:

    for local tank, resist bonus helps and local repair bonus helps
    for logi tank, resist bonus helps, local repair bonus does not help
    for buffer tank and alpha resistance, resist bonus helps, local repair bonus does not help.

    Local repair bonus is a niche bonus that pigeonholes the ship into the role of small gang brawler. The resist bonus is an all-round bonus to effectiveness under all circumstances - even when the ship is out of cap.

    Therefore it makes sense that local rep bonuses are more powerful - they are a specialisation.


    I agree with all of that, but would still like my resists returned to 5% per level, even if local reps are made even stronger to compensate. Also reverse the stealth nerf to active resist modules that no longer have skill bonuses applied.

    Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

    Shade Alidiana
    PROSPERO Corporation
    #518 - 2013-09-24 10:17:45 UTC
    If someone is still reading this... What about reducing cap/s on some modules like CN/DG boosters to bring them in line with t2 (as they were used to be equal in terms of hp/gj). This looks terribly unfair to me that CN/DG boosters are the least effective boosters possible now.
    Nova Satar
    Rekall Incorporated
    #519 - 2013-09-24 12:25:49 UTC
    cannot commend these changes enough! much needed and much loved