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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Author
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#821 - 2013-07-30 20:03:09 UTC
And to the people crying about the new changes did you even tried already the new changes in EFT ? The Munin, Ishtar, Deimos, Cerberus and Sacrilege are damn good. Still didn't have the time to check them all but from what I've seen they are now very (well) balanced.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#822 - 2013-07-30 20:05:32 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
HAC special bonus.

Ability to fit Micro Jump Drives and fitting requirement decreases.

Imagine that..
Honestly, this is the best idea. It gives advantages to both sniping and brawling gameplay, sets HACs apart from all the other similarly-performing ships (T1 ACs, ABCs, BCs, T3s, Pirate ships, CSs, etc.). *Only* a HAC could MJD from that list. That in and of itself would be reason to spend the ~100m more over a similarly-situated Navy Cruiser.

Plus, it'd allow new metas to develop and be tested. Dual prop fits on HACs would have an entirely new meaning.

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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#823 - 2013-07-30 20:05:36 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
HAC special bonus.

Ability to fit Micro Jump Drives and fitting requirement decreases.

Imagine that..

I would prefer something like reducing the range of warp disruptors used against HACs by 50%. It's a buff to the preferred engagement envelope without breaking the ship. I just want to know if such a bonus is technically viable, because if they can't viably code it for relase then there is no point asking for it.

It hasn't been made clear why no move has been made towards giving HACs a real specialisation. I'm assuming that rather than lack of imagination it's lack of resources that has lead us here, because I'm sure that those involved could easily manage something better than "let's make them more resiliant".
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#824 - 2013-07-30 20:09:04 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
And to the people crying about the new changes did you even tried already the new changes in EFT ? The Munin, Ishtar, Deimos, Cerberus and Sacrilege are damn good. Still didn't have the time to check them all but from what I've seen they are now very (well) balanced.


Muninn is still utter crap next to a Tornado, so I don't think its well balanced.
It would be well balanced if CCP had the balls to say "Oops, we're removing the Tornado and Talos" takes the rage, and comes out with a better, more balanced EVE.

Vaga is still meh, Diemost still is meh, and the Eagle is still outclassed by the Naga.

Disappointing changes to say the least.
They did get some things right. (That Ishtar will be SO OP after this...)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#825 - 2013-07-30 20:11:22 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


An XL takes too much compromise to fit, and a Large is too terrible to fit.

TLDR ASB Vaga? No way, buffer ftw.


Large asb's are too bad? What? An unloaded LASB gives you twice the raw shield HP as a LSE with that bonus.....

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#826 - 2013-07-30 20:12:26 UTC
I actually like changes. I've never tried deimos tho so i cant comment on him but every other ship received a buff and will only be better. I see a lot of people complaining about deimos hp but i was never able to win 1 on 1 versus him in another hac (sac most of the times) so i don't really understand why people call him diemost (well maybe after patch he'll be diemost but untill now i wouldn't call him that) Anyway i'd like to see some marauders changes now altho T3 and pirate ships are probably next, great job balancing them Rise but please take a look here and there for stats some of them might be op now
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#827 - 2013-07-30 20:12:42 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
HAC special bonus.

Ability to fit Micro Jump Drives and fitting requirement decreases.

Imagine that..
Honestly, this is the best idea. It gives advantages to both sniping and brawling gameplay, sets HACs apart from all the other similarly-performing ships (T1 ACs, ABCs, BCs, T3s, Pirate ships, CSs, etc.). *Only* a HAC could MJD from that list. That in and of itself would be reason to spend the ~100m more over a similarly-situated Navy Cruiser.

Plus, it'd allow new metas to develop and be tested. Dual prop fits on HACs would have an entirely new meaning.

This. I've been a fan of this idea since it was first raised in the last thread. Resilient damage dealers with exceptional strike capability.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#828 - 2013-07-30 20:12:49 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


An XL takes too much compromise to fit, and a Large is too terrible to fit.

TLDR ASB Vaga? No way, buffer ftw.


Large asb's are too bad? What? An unloaded LASB gives you twice the raw shield HP as a LSE with that bonus.....


Better home you don't get alpha'd through its reps. The key is to not DIE because of the comparatively anemic repping power of the LASB when instead you could fit an XLASB and tank the world for 45 seconds.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Blade dance
Care-Bear Central
Care-Free Coalition
#829 - 2013-07-30 20:13:27 UTC
This will be only my second post on a forum concerning EVE online in my 5 consecutive, and faithful years of playing. With that said please allow this post to be interpreted in two ways.

1. I Generally enjoy playing your game an I am happy to continue to pay to do so.

2. The importance of making yet another voice heard to the upcoming T2 changes has driven me to add my voice to the masses

I have to say that over all I am happy with and even look forward to the new and upcoming changes. Although, I wasnt happy to see the vagabond change, i do understand the changes and as long as the cap recharge is sufficient I'm sure with a little micro management I can see myself flying one with a shield booster equiped. It is one of my favorite ships second only to the Talos as I am partial to speed tanked ships.

The biggest bone I have to pick is with the Deimos.....

I'd have to agree with other previous posts the signature radius my be perhaps too large and not in line with other galente ships.

The removal of the utility slot to be placed in a mid slot leaves much to be desired. It does open up the possibility to shield tank or speed tank the ship but I think both those options arent viable as other T2 HACs do the job better with more EHP. I wouldnt suggest giving it a low slot as it could give an ungair advantage in most cases. But leaving the high slot but allowing an extra gun placement coupled with the lowering of dmg bonuses might fix the issue. I say this because although this ship has no issue with damage projection; it does do some of the most easily defended damage in the game (kenetic/thermal)

Why nerf the armor and hull hp only to add a paltry 139 shield hp to a ship that most would agree is going to be normally armor fit?

Lastly, I really would like to reiterate that I like most the upcoming changes to the HACs. However, I do think the Deimos needs to be looked at again or if you could be so kind as to explain why these changes took place that would better help to understand them also.

M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#830 - 2013-07-30 20:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
nikar galvren wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
HAC special bonus.

Ability to fit Micro Jump Drives and fitting requirement decreases.

Imagine that..
Honestly, this is the best idea. It gives advantages to both sniping and brawling gameplay, sets HACs apart from all the other similarly-performing ships (T1 ACs, ABCs, BCs, T3s, Pirate ships, CSs, etc.). *Only* a HAC could MJD from that list. That in and of itself would be reason to spend the ~100m more over a similarly-situated Navy Cruiser.

Plus, it'd allow new metas to develop and be tested. Dual prop fits on HACs would have an entirely new meaning.

This. I've been a fan of this idea since it was first raised in the last thread. Resilient damage dealers with exceptional strike capability.


It would give HACs an actual role, which would be a nice improvement, highly mobile DPS ships.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#831 - 2013-07-30 20:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Am I going to pay 200 milion for a cruiser sized ship with 70- 90k ehp

OR

Am I going to pay 500 million for a cruiser sized ship with at least double the tank, more damage, more Ewar resistance, more options, more slots, more speed, more capacitor, lower sig, and a much higher likelyhood to survive and/or kill targets faster.

Investment always pays off in the end. Every competent pvp'er knows' this is true.

So given two stupidly overlapping roles, why are people going to choose HACS? What role or benefit do they offer?

How are they not just cheaper, weaker, duller, less adaptable versions of Tech 3 that nobody will fly other than space poor people?

Let me let you in secret that helps when planning:

RICE

Relevant
Challenging
Innovative
Exploratory

It's what teachers are supposed to do to make content interesting and useful to kids.... maybe you guys should try it at CCP.

How are these HACs any of those?

Almost 0 flexibility on most of their gear builds. Almost 0 utility that doesn't get outclassed by at least 5-6 other ship class options. Not new, not thought provoking at all. Not challenging, just the same bonuses on another set of ships.... not like we don't already have 5 sentry drone platforms in game. Not exploratory at all... no new ideas allowing players to explore new content or philosophies.
Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#832 - 2013-07-30 20:15:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Quote:
Alright so for HACs (Heavy Assault Cruisers) we had a few goals:

• Increase viability for the worst ships (Eagle, Cerberus, Sacrilege especially)


Quote:
EAGLE - The Eagle will be a lot better because of the rail change alone, but we've also increased its power grid and replaced the utility high with an extra mid slot.


Quote:
EAGLE

For the Eagle there aren't huge changes. Along with the electronics and cap changes we are going to speed it up slightly, lower the signature radius by 10 and make some small adjustments to the fitting so that fitting rails is a little easier.




The above is everything CCP Rise has said about the Eagle. CCP Rise is lost for words when it comes to the Eagle - it is apparently is the worst ship but does not need any major overhaul. Apparently rails are going to save it...

The Eagle has been trading in Jita below its build cost since the EHP increase back in the last decade. I'm not surprised there is less debate about it - few people have bothered to fly it.

As a game designer you appear to be unable to express why the game needs the Eagle. To paraphrase someone else in this thread who I'd like to quote but cannot find again:

If you removed the Eagle from the game nobody would notice.


Here is a recommendation - delete the Eagle - I really think the old bird is cooked.
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#833 - 2013-07-30 20:17:01 UTC
Blade dance wrote:
This will be only my second post on a forum concerning EVE online in my 5 consecutive, and faithful years of playing. With that said please allow this post to be interpreted in two ways.

1. I Generally enjoy playing your game an I am happy to continue to pay to do so.

2. The importance of making yet another voice heard to the upcoming T2 changes has driven me to add my voice to the masses

[Excellent observations and suggestions]



Welcome to the forums!Big smile
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#834 - 2013-07-30 20:18:12 UTC
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Quote:
Alright so for HACs (Heavy Assault Cruisers) we had a few goals:

• Increase viability for the worst ships (Eagle, Cerberus, Sacrilege especially)


Quote:
EAGLE - The Eagle will be a lot better because of the rail change alone, but we've also increased its power grid and replaced the utility high with an extra mid slot.


Quote:
EAGLE

For the Eagle there aren't huge changes. Along with the electronics and cap changes we are going to speed it up slightly, lower the signature radius by 10 and make some small adjustments to the fitting so that fitting rails is a little easier.




The above is everything CCP Rise has said about the Eagle. CCP Rise is lost for words when it comes to the Eagle - it is apparently is the worst ship but does not need any major overhaul. Apparently rails are going to save it...

The Eagle has been trading in Jita below its build cost since the EHP increase back in the last decade. I'm not surprised there is less debate about it - few people have bothered to fly it.

As a game designer you appear to be unable to express why the game needs the Eagle. To paraphrase someone else in this thread who I'd like to quote but cannot find again:

If you removed the Eagle from the game nobody would notice.


Here is a recommendation - delete the Eagle - I really think the old bird is cooked.



Funny how fixing the tracking fomula and making rails relevant could make the eagle really interesting... but nope, lets ignore that issue too.
Deathwing Reborn
#835 - 2013-07-30 20:30:04 UTC
I havnt read though the entire thread. But the Ishtar split drone bonus sucks IMO. I would suggest something along the lines of combining the bonuses into Drone Optimal, tracking, and speed all in one and adding mabe something like increased drone control range for the 4th bonus.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#836 - 2013-07-30 20:33:58 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
I havnt read though the entire thread. But the Ishtar split drone bonus sucks IMO. I would suggest something along the lines of combining the bonuses into Drone Optimal, tracking, and speed all in one and adding mabe something like increased drone control range for the 4th bonus.


Ishtar is by far the best HAC in the lineup, proven by the fact that it is selling for 225m in Jita right now, 50m more than any other HAC.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#837 - 2013-07-30 20:37:37 UTC
I'm Down wrote:

Funny how fixing the tracking fomula and making rails relevant could make the eagle really interesting... but nope, lets ignore that issue too.


That's more information than CCP Rise has seen fit to disseminate - I did say I was quoting everything that CCP Rise has had to say about the Eagle.

So we are left with "because of the rails" that, unless you've got access to their internal test servers you've not seen yet.

So I still think you'd not notice is they forgot to put them into the game with the 1.1 patch.
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#838 - 2013-07-30 20:37:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

ISHTAR

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)


Ishtar already gets a drone range bonus, and Rise already correctly pointed out that the apparent 3 bonuses for a given type of drones are actually 5:
drone hit points
drone damage
heavy drone speed
heavy drone tracking
drone operation range
sentry optimal
sentry tracking

IMO, it's pretty good now... could just use some armor HP
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#839 - 2013-07-30 20:38:52 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Am I going to pay 200 milion for a cruiser sized ship with 70- 90k ehp

OR

Am I going to pay 500 million for a cruiser sized ship with at least double the tank, more damage, more Ewar resistance, more options, more slots, more speed, more capacitor, lower sig, and a much higher likelyhood to survive and/or kill targets faster.

Investment always pays off in the end. Every competent pvp'er knows' this is true.

So given two stupidly overlapping roles, why are people going to choose HACS? What role or benefit do they offer?

How are they not just cheaper, weaker, duller, less adaptable versions of Tech 3 that nobody will fly other than space poor people?

Let me let you in secret that helps when planning:

RICE

Relevant
Challenging
Innovative
Exploratory

It's what teachers are supposed to do to make content interesting and useful to kids.... maybe you guys should try it at CCP.

How are these HACs any of those?

Almost 0 flexibility on most of their gear builds. Almost 0 utility that doesn't get outclassed by at least 5-6 other ship class options. Not new, not thought provoking at all. Not challenging, just the same bonuses on another set of ships.... not like we don't already have 5 sentry drone platforms in game. Not exploratory at all... no new ideas allowing players to explore new content or philosophies.

You do realize that those same T3's are in CCP's sights for the nerf bat right?
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#840 - 2013-07-30 20:42:48 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

You do realize that those same T3's are in CCP's sights for the nerf bat right?


Yea they better tread carefully or else they'll have the Wormhole community up in arms. (If they rolled back Incursion nerfs because Incursionbears bitched and moaned they better not overnerf T3s or else they'll have an even larger WH community to deal with)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.