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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#141 - 2013-07-15 17:52:04 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
And yet CCP exists. How do you explain that.


That's right.

Exists.

Meanwhile, in Blizzard land, they thrive despite the changing market.


And? What is your stake in it?


Quote:

They don't put all their eggs in one basket.

They have 3 successful game franchises, based not only on marketing, but the reputation of making good games.

They attract the best talent money can buy due to all of it.

Now whales can have their game tailored to how they like, but it takes more than whales to get that game. It takes people and many people.


Where, exactly are these EVE whales? I think the EVe gate swallowed them up.

I'm going to take a gander here. You don't like something about EVE or the EVE community. You think ccp changing the game will attract more people like you (omg just saying that made me nauseous) and less people like...the EVE community. Or you think EVE is to hard and the kind of changes you want would be more fun for you (screw the holders of 500k accounts).

The above is all speculation, because even if you were motivated by such incredible selfishness, it would not begin to explain your hatred of EVE Online and it's current status quo. If you don't enjoy what EVE is right now, why bother playing and participating in it's community that you seem to disdain?

In short, what's you Deal?
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#142 - 2013-07-15 17:55:15 UTC
Why do these people play Eve?

It's a sandbox, make some content or GB2-whatever single player game you were playing before this. CCP aren't spoon feeding content so if it is beyond your faculties to make/find some then don't bother playing.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#143 - 2013-07-15 18:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Based on your completely ridiculous rationale, Justin Bieber is the greatest performer of all time and all bands, songwriters and musicians should take note and follow in his footsteps because they have so much to learn from him, right?


They might. Because what sells Bieber is the marketing. Which is how folks got the iPod and iPad craze.Idea[
Bull. Utter poppycock. First to market with a superior product is what set Apple's fortunes. The marketting is nice, but secondary. Comparing Bieber to Apple is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in text.


Quote:
You can make the best product in the world, but if it's not marketed well, it doesn't sell. If it doesn't sell, there's no money. If there's no money, there's no company.

CCP's product sells. So they're not kings of the world - so what? Bottom line: They produce a product, have done so for over a decade, and are still in business. The point of business isn't to win - The point of business is to keep on paying the bills, and keep on paying the workers and investors. End of subject. Doesn't matter what any other business does, so long as each specific business meets that goal.

You keep popping off random numbers, but it's entirely clear you've got no idea what you're talking about.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#144 - 2013-07-15 18:05:56 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Why do these people play Eve?

It's a sandbox, make some content or GB2-whatever single player game you were playing before this. CCP aren't spoon feeding content so if it is beyond your faculties to make/find some then don't bother playing.


that's really well said. I have tried to introduce a few people to EVE. Most didn't stay. the ones who liked a challenged and could deal with the uneasiness of the unknown stayed and we play together all the time. The one's who needed scripted gameplay didn't stay at all. It's ok, that's why there are different games, I only played WoW for like 16 months because my friends did, but I hated the grind and other aspects of the game just didn't hold my attention.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#145 - 2013-07-15 18:15:20 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Why do these people play Eve?

It's a sandbox, make some content or GB2-whatever single player game you were playing before this. CCP aren't spoon feeding content so if it is beyond your faculties to make/find some then don't bother playing.


Il go ahead and say that ppl play this game because internet space ships..

and since when sandbox mean that primitive game mechanic is valid and anyone saying that it should be improved is just another wow kid?

I stop using analog tv too maybe you should try it HD/3d/motion sensors..there is whole world out there man trust me...

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Jimmy Morane
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-07-15 19:08:31 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
I wish we had negative thumbs for this forum. Self esteem issues be damned, give me the red pen CCP.

Failure of this magnitude should hurt.
A lot.


Also would like a facepalm button that puts a little Picard-like icon on the person's post.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#147 - 2013-07-15 19:10:46 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is why EVE should never EVEr be something that the Ace Uoweme's of the world would like and flock to. One of the best features of EVE is that it has no 'levels" a smart player with a lower "skilled" char can beat a dumb guy with 100 mil skill points. not like in other games where your level 70 or something night elf witchcraft chcuker is invincible to lower level characters no matter how stupid the guy at the controls is.

It's ok that people like those other MMOs, leave EVE alone.


People like you Jenn, spend more time mocking, than thinking. You're like Burger King with the negative ads, and just don't "get it" why McDonald's will always be #1 (they don't use negative ads). Idea

9 million players enjoy WoW. 500k play EvE. That's all you really need to know. Spin those ships with excuses, but it's clear what sells.


Following your amayzing logic, Justin Bieber music is better than that of Mozart's.

You can't compare kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg's with a sandbox mmo-rpg game, it's like comparing chess with sonic the hedgehog.

And btw, if 9 million players played EvE Online, i would most likely not play it, since the game i love wouldn't exist anymore.

The Tears Must Flow
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2013-07-15 19:14:44 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Following your amayzing logic, Justin Bieber music is better than that of Mozart's.


Following your "amayzing logic", you'll connect Bieber with Mozart and not marketing. Shocked

/facepalm

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#149 - 2013-07-15 19:18:12 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Following your amayzing logic, Justin Bieber music is better than that of Mozart's.


Following your "amayzing logic", you'll connect Bieber with Mozart and not marketing. Shocked

/facepalm


You either dumb or a massive troll. At least you didn't write the word "WoW" on a post.

The Tears Must Flow
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-07-15 19:24:45 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Quote from http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/

>The Sandbox is the game world of EVE combined with the persistent actions of thousands upon thousands of players who interact with one another in a single-server environment.

Your actions in the Sandbox can lead to the destruction of starships, the creation of a thriving corporation or the doom of an empire. Every action taken by every player affects the state of the Sandbox, and through it those actions affect every other player.

The web of action and reaction in EVE leads to emergent gameplay where a single shot, business deal or even just a word can determine the destiny of thousands.<

This is Eve's beginning description of the sandbox. Please point out to me where it says "This game is about PVP and all the mechanics of the game will lead you to PVP.

Follow the links that help you select your career. Show me where all the career paths end in "This game is about PVP and sooner or later you will figure that out."



There's one mission in military career tutorials that teaches you about loss and you have to sacrifice a ship in order to complete the tutorial.

There is also a tutorial about how to update your clone.

These are both accessed very early on after logging in the game. Before anything you will ever learn about "margin trading" or "plexing".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#151 - 2013-07-15 19:25:00 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Il go ahead and say that ppl play this game because internet space ships..


You don't want internet spaceships though, you want PVE spaceships, there are many alternatives - find them.

Mina Sebiestar wrote:

and since when sandbox mean that primitive game mechanic is valid and anyone saying that it should be improved is just another wow kid?


You've lost me, what is primitive? Clearly you are just another kid (or an adult with very poor language skills) and as you want to be spoon fed PVE probably not far from WoW. Why should we adapt to your needs when most of the games in this genre are filled with that PVE grinding crap and you could swap to any one of them? Why can't Eve be an interesting game that actually requires the player to engage their brain occasionally?

Mina Sebiestar wrote:
I stop using analog tv too maybe you should try it HD/3d/motion sensors..there is whole world out there man trust me...


There are too many things wrong with this analogy to waste my time with but out of curiosity what do you mean by motion sensor, more specifically how do they present an alternative to analog TV?
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2013-07-15 19:25:07 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Bull. Utter poppycock. First to market with a superior product is what set Apple's fortunes.


Going nowhere with that argument.

Wouldn't matter, Apple wouldn't exist today if Microsoft didn't see an opportunity.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-07-15 19:26:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Short Stack122 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
The problem with Eve PvE being terrible is that it is also the basis for the economy. You can't say that everyone should move to PvP because if that happened we'd all be quickly battling in our noob ships because PvP doesn't create wealth. Its the mission runners, miners, explorers, etc that create value. The industrialists add value to those products in the form of ships, modules, etc. The fighters then blow it all up. Fighting can protect or acquire the means, but it doesn't itself generate.
PvP creates plenty wealth; it just takes a back bench of creating ISK (but creates some of that too). That particular faucet could certainly be turned up to compensate if the ISK-generating PvE was… ehrm… altered.

I'm assuming that rather than wealth, resources was meant. Though even then, outside of insurance or salvage (both of which seem to generally be balanced as an overall loss of wealth from the game) I don't see much wealth "created" by PvP rather than relocated. How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?

a simple way would be a highsec merc corp.

That's relocation of wealth from a client to you, additionally potential relocation of wealth though intended targets. Neither brings things into the game on the save value as what was lost assuming the mercenary actions end in combat. Also neither generates much new wealth as insurance is designed to make up for a portion of loss, not the entirety.



Supply and demand?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2013-07-15 19:27:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
And yet CCP exists. How do you explain that.


That's right.

Exists.

Meanwhile, in Blizzard land, they thrive despite the changing market.


And? What is your stake in it?


I'm not a Goon, I have no stake in it.

Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2013-07-15 19:34:55 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).


I've literally never played a game I didn't think was good, let alone hung out on their forums for 5+ hours a day spouting countless piles of steaming verbal horseshit.

You're a weird one.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2013-07-15 19:37:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?
Insurance, industry and salvage, most notably. The vast majority of items and materials come from PvP activities, but only about 6-7% of the ISK.


Ships, ammo and modules are not amde out of raw isks. Unless you don't count mining as PvE, your view of EVE PVP generating anything is flawed.



I think the point is, that people with isk do not need to make our own ships. We simply buy them. Someone else makes the ship. Someone else buys it, flies it, dies in it, and it gets salvaged by someone else. Then can be sold as the salvaged product or broken down to minerals.

And sold.

PVP is not about creating anything other than content, but it can lead to others' wealth, because without it there is no need or demand therefore people wouldn't spend as much money as they do on ships and ammo and modules and implants.

Not to mention when you PVP in FW.... you create wealth for yourself (or rather, an alternate method of payment [LP]) by discounting items from the LP store. And different areas/corps have different LP markets specifically because the vendors/stations do not all sell the same things.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2013-07-15 19:40:15 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Player interaction is not the same as Player versus Player. Eve is designed for constant player interaction. That's a much more accurate statement than saying that all of the game is about PvP. For one thing, a lot of the game involves Player With Player group activities. And even then, people can avoid the interactions by ignoring them, not caring about them, and pursuing an essentially solo route. I know players who play exactly this way. They love the game, they even join a corp, but they play on their own. They've learned how to avoid interaction that they don't want. I don't have any idea why they want to play this game the way they do, but that's what they do.

Defining PvP so broadly that everything in the game fits into that paradigm is essentially a political activity that some of you guys undertake on the forums.

The fact that most aspects of the game can take on a PVP aspect does not mean they are essentially and wholly PVP.



On the same coin "pvp" also does not necessarily only mean "combat", but competition.

So scams and margin trading and .01 isk wars are indeed considered PVP.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2013-07-15 19:41:56 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Short Stack122 wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and that's the reason why EVE is still growing


500k players isn't growing, Tippia, that's surviving. Especially when at least 1/3 are but alt accounts.

I would like for EvE to really grow, with millions of humans playing. Not a game with AFK IsBox gatecampers, and just the same in those blob fleets.

A MMO isn't fun when it's not full of people having fun. What that fun is, is what a sandbox game was meant for -- the individual defining his own destiny among the millions...not thousands and they're IsBoxers.

For that, I'll just fire up Deus Ex/Commandos/Morrowind/Oblivion/Silent Hunter/AoE...and for a replacement of EvE...Homeworld II and not bother with the internet at all as I'm playing with but NPCs anyway.Ugh

you sure post A LOT and i mean A LOT for someone who doesnt enjoy the game o.O



He'd be in the right place if he went to forums for the games he mentioned and begged there for mutiplayer versions and lobbyies that looked like cities in WoW in space maybe or Global Agenda space . He'd be able to create little "corps" or "guilds" or whatever they call them in console games.

They could hang out in the Station/lobby/City and show off their loot to each other.

Items really aren't real other than a few token ones.. if 90% of them can't be bought and sold or stolen they're just "unlocks" not virtual items.

He could think he was playing an virtual world and pat himself on the back for that or whatever he's after .

This game isn't like those games but with more people. I hope it doesn't go that way.



Surviving is fine... Dentists thrive and make a good living for 30 years with the same sized practice?

Would you call a Dentist unsuccessful if he made $200 k a year that grew with inflation over the life of his practice?

No.. thats sucess. Growth is gravy. Of course then need to reach for more people and not rest on their laurels or risk not replacing those that naturally drift away. And it's always good to reach for the brass ring.

But a good dentist shouldn't go try to be a podiatrist in his off hours to increase his income.


What Dentist does not try to increase their patient base by allowing a varied list of insurance, and other government assistance for certain families?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#159 - 2013-07-15 19:42:56 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
I'm not a Goon, I have no stake in it.

Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).



Name one western subscription MMO besides WOW that has better subscription numbers than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO anywhere that has shown year on year subscription growth for a decade other than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO that tried to compete with WOW by copying WOW that's still significant (and source your data).

Show your data* indicating that the average number of accounts per player is growing in EVE. I mean, surely to back all your claims that EVE's only attracting more alts rather than new players you have some evidence, right? Right?


*Please remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#160 - 2013-07-15 19:50:49 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).


I've literally never played a game I didn't think was good, let alone hung out on their forums for 5+ hours a day spouting countless piles of steaming verbal horseshit.

You're a weird one.


Life is chocked full of people like that. I think of it as a weird masochistic tendency.

Whereas normal people play a game, discover they don't like it and leave, some keep play and lobby hard for changes to the game to fit them, without a single thought of the people who already play and like it (and those who haven't discovered it yet but who would like it).

I'm like you, if I don't like a game I find another, I don't spend hour upon hour playing the game I don't like while telling people on it's forums that they shouldn't like the game they like lol. But those people always think everyone else is the problem.