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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#81 - 2013-07-15 01:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
In EvE better skills should dictate fights, not have a scam of training all you want but some newbie can kill you the same. It makes a mockery of even having the skills in the first place.
No, they really shouldn't, because that's horrid game design. In EVE, better usage of your assets (skills, skillz, ships, modules, geography, and friends) should dictate fights. And guess what? They do.

Character skills being just one part of those assets does not make a mockery of it — quite the opposite: it means they actually have a point in being there rather than sticking with some kind of obsolete and simpleminded level system when all that matters is time. The skill system is the best feature of EVE's design since it does away with that kind of nonsense. It's what makes it an actual RPG rather than just a braindead “level top trumps” game, like so many other MMOs out there.

Velarra wrote:
500k accounts are actively subscribed to Tranquility? Or 500k accounts are actively involved with/subscribed to Tranquility, Serenity (CEVE) & Dust in total?
500k for EVE and EVE China. Guesstimates from server activity put TQ at ⅘–⅚ of that.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#82 - 2013-07-15 02:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tippia wrote:
Velarra wrote:
500k accounts are actively subscribed to Tranquility? Or 500k accounts are actively involved with/subscribed to Tranquility, Serenity (CEVE) & Dust in total?
500k for EVE and EVE China. Guesstimates from server activity put TQ at ⅘–⅚ of that.


Incidentally, that 500k subscriptions places EVE in second behind WOW for biggest western, subscription MMO now that SWOTOR's gone F2P. Aion, a korean MMO beats it, and several F2P games beat it in "subscriptions" (Runescape, Second life, and SWOTOR), but that's it.

Also, all of them except EVE and Second life are showing significant decline in subscriptions.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
(If someone has newer data, I'd love to see it)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#83 - 2013-07-15 02:11:59 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Actually, PvPers don't even know what they want.

Case in point in what happened in WoW: PvPers there can "twink" (usually lower level toons, which their owners will buy or farm for the best gear in the game to wear) and kept asking for a twink only battlegrounds (filling the forums with threads like this). Not only twink BGs, level locked at the choice levels. Claiming it was all for the challenge. Blizzard complied and made a queue only for level locked twinks.

It wasn't even 6 months before those BGs simply died a hard death.

Why?

Nobody to simply gank.

What's the most popular arena in WoW? 2v2. Why is it popular? Ease of access, just 1 other player. It got to be so trivial with OP classes burning through them as a "challenge", that Blizzard doesn't offer CP point advantage in them anymore (unlike 3v3 and 5v5)...because it wasn't challenging.

CRZ opened up in September, 2012. This allowed Level 90s an endless supply of level 58s going into TBC areas. The Black Portal entrance area was literally all skeletons. Level 90s were camping level 58s regardless if they were new players or not. PvE or PvP servers didn't matter, all it took was an AoE to get flagged. Easy pickings.

Notice the theme and with millions of PvPers? They don't want a challenge. They don't want to fight those on their own level (too much work and requires studying to be good). They don't gem/enchant/or even bother to fix their stats (but god they can buy 10 button Naga mice to fill with macros. Then call everyone else "bads").

Wash ups.

If they can't be in a blob to fight, they pick those who can't fight back.

CCP allows this as a game design (making not only mining ships totally defenseless, but also freighters). Cheap, simple, unchallenging targets for mouth breathers.

When mouth breathing PvPers ask for a "challenge" it means - more gank, less tank.


I hit the like button so hard I nearly broke my mouse button. Big smile

I hereby petition to add this to the Scriptures, for verily 'tis the Gospel Truth.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2013-07-15 02:23:36 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I hereby petition to add this to the Scriptures, for verily 'tis the Gospel Truth.

If by that you mean it was a mix of doped-up fantasy and blatant history revisionism invented by drunken goat herders to justify their subjection and oppression of anyone outside their own little clique, then yes, it's very close to Gospel “Truth”.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-07-15 03:50:36 UTC
Velarra wrote:
500k accounts are actively subscribed to Tranquility? Or 500k accounts are actively involved with/subscribed to Tranquility, Serenity (CEVE) & Dust in total?

If the latter, how many are only subscribed to Tranquility?


EvE total (DUST release came after the 500k report, and it's a separate game).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#86 - 2013-07-15 03:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Tippia wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I hereby petition to add this to the Scriptures, for verily 'tis the Gospel Truth.

If by that you mean it was a mix of doped-up fantasy and blatant history revisionism invented by drunken goat herders to justify their subjection and oppression of anyone outside their own little clique, then yes, it's very close to Gospel “Truth”.

Sigma squad?

4-EP12 VIII - 4-E Blawrf is a furry (sadly renamed again by now).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-07-15 04:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Verunae Caseti
Gogela wrote:
You're an apologist. I'm saying they haven't drawn their sword across the line in years on a major feature update or expansion, and you're essentially saying "awww just give them time"? That sounds delusional to me. The CCP business model is predicated on the "promise" of the future of EvE... not in the actually delivery of said future. That's all I'm saying.


The future of EVE is in the past. EVE is ten years old. Do you understand that in the world of software, especially games, that is ancient history? The fact that EVE even still exists let alone maintains a playerbase, let alone half a million subscriptions and a core of dedicated, committed fans is absolutely incredible.

But if you're waiting for the next great leap forward, then I suggest you look elsewhere. The future of EVE was 5 years ago. Tomorrow was yesterday.You missed it. It came and went, and it was glorious; and, now the fact that it's still playable is simply a credit to the knowledge, experience and expertise that CCP has crafted, honed and embraced over the past decade.

"Apologist?" CCP needs apologists? They have provided one of the longest-running, most in-depth, balanced, robust and incredibly diverse gaming experience the industry has known, and they have done so since dial-up internet was still a pervasive technology. Why would they want to apologize for that? And to whom do they owe this apology?

If you don't like EVE today, you're not going to like EVE next year, or the year after. They're not going to fundamentally alter what has worked for 3723 days and counting. Why would they? For you?

Please, don't hold your breath. EVE is what it is and this is probably all its ever going to be. If you don't love it now, don't hang out on the forums and ***** about it and expect it to change. Just go pick up some cheap games on Steam during the Summer Sale and pass the time until a new MMO comes out.

EVE is your grandfather. He's not going to pick a new favorite food now because you're like "Jeez, Grandpa, that's gross." and he's not going to stop watching Wheel of Fortune just because you don't like it and think Jeopardy is cooler. He's going to sit on his recliner, kick back, and drink his Miller Genuine Draft and maybe watch a baseball game or two and then he's going to die of old age and a lot of people are going to go to his funeral beacuse, you know what, he's been the best damn grandpa ever to a lot of us.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-07-15 05:25:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I hereby petition to add this to the Scriptures, for verily 'tis the Gospel Truth.

If by that you mean it was a mix of doped-up fantasy and blatant history revisionism invented by drunken goat herders to justify their subjection and oppression of anyone outside their own little clique, then yes, it's very close to Gospel “Truth”.


Where you playing WoW then, Tippia? Were you on the WoW GD forum? If not, you don't know jack what you're talking about...again.

I'll give you another fact about PvP this time from BF3. I play primarily Support there. Been playing that role for years. Would lay down the ammo boxes at choice locations, lay down a wall of suppressive fire. No one would be without bullets or explosives, BLOW IT ALL UP. I have tens of thousands of teampoints. One day it came that I wanted to get the Recon stats up. So unlocked the MAV and went out painting targets. In one week I got as many teampoints spotting targets than months of dispensing ammo. Do you know why? Mouth breathers love their Milkbones. Point and god they'll eat up the enemy. I was getting 50 ribbon medals at a rate faster than even laying ammo boxes on a meatgrinder map for months. In about 2 weeks, from 0 ribbons to over 900. Solely on spotting for mouth breathers.

I used to lead some Rated battlegrounds in Cata. The players had to have instructions so literally, I doubt there were 2 brain cells in their heads (no different in BF3, and certainly no different in EvE). I'm a healer and I have to protect the FC, but they're demanding instructions in how to fight the EFC, a guy I can't see from the other side of the BG...and relying on the intel from those very guys who's not giving it Like in BF3, they keep running back to die, over and over and over, not willing to THINK to stop dying (notice a theme there????? Just hop into a ship and not be afraid of dying????). So what do I have to do? Run down there to hand hold them, literally through it.

It's called brain dead gaming.

After awhile you'll get tired of that junk and move on to more fun activities, like crafting. Why? Because I'm tired of doing all the work, so some drunk or high as a kite kid can gloat that he's successful at failing.And don't for a minute think that only happens in WoW. TS coms in EvE isn't much better than that.

My dime, my time.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2013-07-15 05:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Where you playing WoW then, Tippia? Were you on the WoW GD forum? If not, you don't know jack what you're talking about...again.
The thing is, I'm talking about EVE, not WoW. If you're going to make sweeping statements about how people play EVE, cite EVE examples, not examples from some unrelated and irrelevant game. I know entirely what I'm talking about, and you have shown at every turn that you do not.

If you want to talk about EVE, talk about EVE, or what you say is about as relevant to the here and now as what some illiterate goat herders who lived thousands of years ago thought about how life works…

Quote:
I'll give you another fact about PvP this time from BF3.
How about one from EVE?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-07-15 05:51:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velarra wrote:
500k accounts are actively subscribed to Tranquility? Or 500k accounts are actively involved with/subscribed to Tranquility, Serenity (CEVE) & Dust in total?
500k for EVE and EVE China. Guesstimates from server activity put TQ at ⅘–⅚ of that.


Incidentally, that 500k subscriptions places EVE in second behind WOW for biggest western, subscription MMO now that SWOTOR's gone F2P. Aion, a korean MMO beats it, and several F2P games beat it in "subscriptions" (Runescape, Second life, and SWOTOR), but that's it.

Also, all of them except EVE and Second life are showing significant decline in subscriptions.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
(If someone has newer data, I'd love to see it)

According to EA stats SWTOR has less subs then EVE, but natually more players and revenue, since it's F2P. EVE crossed the 500k line early in the year and Odyssey seems to have been a success, while in SWTOR "the number of subscriptions has stabilized at just under half a million.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-07-15 06:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
Tippia wrote:
The thing is, I'm talking about EVE, not WoW. If you're going to make sweeping statements about how people play EVE, cite EVE examples, not examples from some unrelated and irrelevant game. I know entirely what I'm talking about, and you have shown at every turn that you do not.


EvE players are no different from any other game nor how they think or act. Do you know why? Because those same players play OTHER games.

What goes around, comes around.

If you chose to live in an oyster, Tippia, don't complain about not seeing reality.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#92 - 2013-07-15 07:23:44 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The thing is, I'm talking about EVE, not WoW. If you're going to make sweeping statements about how people play EVE, cite EVE examples, not examples from some unrelated and irrelevant game. I know entirely what I'm talking about, and you have shown at every turn that you do not.


EvE players are no different from any other game nor how they think or act. Do you know why? Because those same players play OTHER games.


[Citation Needed]

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#93 - 2013-07-15 07:29:36 UTC
Nothing wrong with missions or PVE content. Or mining if you want to go that far. Ever had a hangover? Lol It's something you can still go back to on those days you don't feel like risky exploration and space adventures, or all out war. Low / 0.0 / WH offer missions and PVE content under player threat, and I've always found piracy and small gang pvp one of the draws of the game. I never felt switched after the bait, really.
Multor Kaston
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-07-15 07:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Multor Kaston
You guys wanna know why you hate PvE in EVE so much? Because you've been playing the game for God knows how long. For instance I did "The Blockade" for the 3rd time ever a few days ago. Ended up getting jammed and lost a damn ship! Annoying yes, but it was quite exhilarating trying to fight it off.

I'll give y'all an example of how playing something too long can make it seem like a grind. I used to be big on GTA IV for PC. I was part of a clan that used to make their own custom missions. Wanna know why we made our own custom missions? Because we got BORED of doing the standard ones. Does that mean Grand Theft Auto has terrible missions? Because we eventually got bored after doing the same missions so many times? Of course it doesn't. It means we got freakin' bored, lol.

While I do agree they could add some more missions to increase variety, what is being asked here is too extreme. If you're doing the same activities for years on end, eventually it will become a grind, it will become routine. I've had to stop watching certain TV shows for this very reason in fact.

There's a lot of different things to do in EvE and if you focus on just 1 or 2 things it will undoubtedly get boring eventually. Personally though I don't understand how someone - who hasn't done PvE for a week let's say - wouldn't enjoy teaming up with a fleet of a dozen mates and trying an incursion challenge. Some are meant for 20+ member fleets. If PvE is suuuuuuch a boring grind, grab less then 20, and give yourself a challenge!

With all that said... I do think/realize the AI could use some work. As right now if you aren't VERY outnumbered or being warp disrupted, you pretty much can always avoid death. That does kill the fun a bit, knowing the risk before-hand like that.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#95 - 2013-07-15 09:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Gogela wrote:
You're an apologist. I'm saying they haven't drawn their sword across the line in years on a major feature update or expansion, and you're essentially saying "awww just give them time"? That sounds delusional to me. The CCP business model is predicated on the "promise" of the future of EvE... not in the actually delivery of said future. That's all I'm saying.


The future of EVE is in the past. EVE is ten years old. Do you understand that in the world of software, especially games, that is ancient history? The fact that EVE even still exists let alone maintains a playerbase, let alone half a million subscriptions and a core of dedicated, committed fans is absolutely incredible.

But if you're waiting for the next great leap forward, then I suggest you look elsewhere. The future of EVE was 5 years ago. Tomorrow was yesterday.You missed it. It came and went, and it was glorious; and, now the fact that it's still playable is simply a credit to the knowledge, experience and expertise that CCP has crafted, honed and embraced over the past decade.

"Apologist?" CCP needs apologists? They have provided one of the longest-running, most in-depth, balanced, robust and incredibly diverse gaming experience the industry has known, and they have done so since dial-up internet was still a pervasive technology. Why would they want to apologize for that? And to whom do they owe this apology?

If you don't like EVE today, you're not going to like EVE next year, or the year after. They're not going to fundamentally alter what has worked for 3723 days and counting. Why would they? For you?

Please, don't hold your breath. EVE is what it is and this is probably all its ever going to be. If you don't love it now, don't hang out on the forums and ***** about it and expect it to change. Just go pick up some cheap games on Steam during the Summer Sale and pass the time until a new MMO comes out.

EVE is your grandfather. He's not going to pick a new favorite food now because you're like "Jeez, Grandpa, that's gross." and he's not going to stop watching Wheel of Fortune just because you don't like it and think Jeopardy is cooler. He's going to sit on his recliner, kick back, and drink his Miller Genuine Draft and maybe watch a baseball game or two and then he's going to die of old age and a lot of people are going to go to his funeral beacuse, you know what, he's been the best damn grandpa ever to a lot of us.


1) Look up "apologist" in a dictionary.

2) EvE sucked when it came out. It was barely playable at all. I didn't miss a damn thing. Please let's not look backward. The game has come a long way and I don't think GTG bookmark collections or getting stuck in gates was very cool at all.

3) That's an ad hominem attack + red herring modifier. I never said I don't like the game. Why would I be here otherwise? I just want more... I want it to be a BETTER game.

4) Yah I do know something about software, and 10 years is great, but what have you done for me lately, CCP? The game hasn't been around for 10 years because it's been around for 10 years. Your implication is faulty in logic and support. It's been around for 10 years because just when people were about to quit, Trinity came around and kick everyone in their complacent sack. Then again, when Apocrypha came out. That was a phenomenal and substantive release, and it kept people playing. EvE has existed for this long because it has been on the cutting edge for all that time, constantly reviving itself with great expansions. Then after Apocrypha it feels like the devs just lost their passion.

5) EvE is not all it's going to ever be, because CCP is a business. They will have 2 choices as subs lapse and alts are forgotten: innovate on the game, or innovate how they generate revenue. We'll see. I promise you, everything in EvE will be available for cash as the ship sinks. It's not about principals; it's about business and draining every last drop of revenue from the IP before it's dead. They have shareholders to think about. If they weren't making money there would be no EvE. That seems pretty straight forward to me... but here's something fun to think about: put yourself in the CEO's shoes. You have successfully built a huge and brilliant MMO. It is your company's first, though. If you had it to do again, think you'd do anything differently? Having poured all your blood sweat and tears into the IP for a decade, you're proud of your accomplishment and have earned a great deal of respect in the game dev and commercial circles. ...but the IP is getting a little stale... legacy technology problems plague your game and the development costs just keep mounting. Coaxing in new subscribers is getting more and more challenging. The other developers are excited on the surface... but secretly 10 years is a long time to work on one game. Side projects (ex. EvE-VR) are brilliant and innovative, and the contrast between your employees efforts in their side projects vs their regular development is stark. ...but what's this? You have ANOTHER IP that's hot, more broadly popular as a genera, and generating a little buzz. So here's the question that wall of text was prepping you for: Do you double down on the old game, or siphon off development funds for the new IP on the DL while placating the existing playerbase so they can keep your company on life support while you ready your NEW moneymaker for the market? Honestly.... make a business decision. People whom you care about deeply and owe your success to are counting on your for their livelihoods. What would you do?

Finally - EvE is a really cool game, but so was Freelancer. So was Mario Brothers. If the game get's "old" I'm going to play something cool instead. Like any other game, I'll remember it warmly, but hell if I'm going to look back.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#96 - 2013-07-15 10:09:48 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Coaxing in new subscribers is getting more and more challenging...


What are your data on this? Because CCP stated that Retribution was the most successful expansion (in terms of subscription increase) in EVE's history.

Will CCP milk EVE with the F2P/cash shop combo? Well "never" is a long time, so I won't say the word, but it's difficult to understand why CCP would want to go that route while EVE is growing at historically high speed.

10 years down the line, if they have several other successful products providing them with sustained reliable income and EVE's sub rates are stagnant or declining, CCP may perhaps feel inclined to gamble with EVE's revenue model. It's difficult to see a valid reason for them to do so now or in the immediate future, though, especially as doing so would in itself require a major development project.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#97 - 2013-07-15 10:16:00 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
If you chose to live in an oyster, Tippia, don't complain about not seeing reality.

So you have no EVE examples, then?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#98 - 2013-07-15 10:19:26 UTC
Oh and Ace's bizzarro-land burbling about the iniquities of a skill-based character progression and rock-paper-scissors balancing is particularly hilarious. A bloo bloo hoo my battleship isn't a pwnmobile that lets me slaughter endless waves of low level players CCP should immediately change EVE to have WoW style progression so that EVE can have WoW style 20% year-on-year subscription declines. Truly a model to emulate!


It's amazing how she manages to be so consistently wrong and yet so very certain in her odd little impervious reality bubble.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#99 - 2013-07-15 11:33:16 UTC
Themepark mindset players don't understand the nature of sandbox mmo-rpg games.

They just can't deal with it.

The Tears Must Flow

Norm Tempesta
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-07-15 11:43:58 UTC
Anything gets boring when you repeat it enough. I suggest a bit of recreation away from the screen.