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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#121 - 2013-06-19 15:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.

Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3
Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3

There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:

Gallente: 38433m3
Minmatar: 28259m3

In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.

I prefer the new version

@ccp_rise

Joseph Adamamada
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-06-19 15:51:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, after far too much time, I think we're as close as we're going to get to finished with these.
MAMMOTH

Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity

Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 140 PWG, 775 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4400 / 22105m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 690 / 1050 / 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .91 / 11375000 / 14.3
Signature radius: 190


Base cargo seems to be wrong. Shouldn't it be 5625m3?
(My PI Mammoth is T1 rigged/T2 exp and hauls 27129m3)

IB4 CCP secretly nerfs the Mammoth
Pirokobo
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-06-19 15:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pirokobo
Add new specialized sub categories of industrial ships each offering only one option from the list below:


  • corporate hangar
  • ship hold
  • clone vats
  • ship maintenance array
  • only loads in stations (baby freighter)


This, combined with the other two roles, gives justification for many different types of industrials. It also gives low cost specialized alternatives to the Orca and Rorqual. All that's needed is for Art to come up with a few more hulls or staple bling on to the ones they already have.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#124 - 2013-06-19 15:56:11 UTC
I want to add my voice to the "Save the Mammoths" crowd. The ship is beautiful, so far as the T1 industrials go, and it fits quite nicely with the Minmatar DST being based on its hull. The Wreath is ugly enough, but the Hoarder... please, no.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Raziphan Rebular
Path of Dooppa
#125 - 2013-06-19 16:02:17 UTC
Aurora RedNova wrote:
I really hope you grab the Tech2 haulers as next after you are already deep in the matter with tech1.
Tech2 haulers need a really big rebalance (deep space transports are not for deep space actually and move like a whale on valium).

Btw. vulnerability of transporters like charon etc for ganks is a REALLY big issue too^^



I like the deep space transports for moving my Pi in lowsec, the tank is nice just in case i get caught at a poco, where as t1 hauler or the cov ops hauler wouldn't be nearly so good.. Plus I can fit a butt load of stabs onto of my tank. It's good all around. But ya the name is kinda misleading.
Abla Tive
#126 - 2013-06-19 16:02:38 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
switch the mammoth with the hoarder please. No one wants to fly that ugly monstrosity called the hoarder and it wouldn't make sense that the mastodon has a mammoth hull otherwise.


I agree.

Plus I use Mammoths for my heavy hauling right now (i.e. they are the ones who are already rigged).
The new numbers mean that my existing ships are less useful than they are today (smaller hold capacity)

You should leave the big haulers as the big haulers for all the races.

Dave Stark
#127 - 2013-06-19 16:03:34 UTC
considering the mammoth doesn't seem to have any indicated stat changes, why is it losing like 4k cargo capacity?

actually, i'm not even sure i care, i own an orca which is still better than every single t1 industrial in every single way that matters.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#128 - 2013-06-19 16:03:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
(even at the cost of 'homoginizing')
I think you've missed the point that there doesn't need to be homogenization. We don't need one sausage different lengths. Racial diversity in what can be carried/how fast would have gone a long way to making these ships truly unique. Aside from that, there really should be three variants of them if you are stuck on homogenization.

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Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-06-19 16:04:17 UTC
So everyone who rigged his Mammoth with cargohold expanders is now screwed ?

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Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#130 - 2013-06-19 16:05:35 UTC
What about the CPU Rise?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#131 - 2013-06-19 16:06:26 UTC
Joseph Adamamada wrote:
Base cargo seems to be wrong. Shouldn't it be 5625m3?
(My PI Mammoth is T1 rigged/T2 exp and hauls 27129m3)

IB4 CCP secretly nerfs the Mammoth
This is intentional. Rise stated that the "other" hulls would fall in the middle of the intended haulers with the proposed changes. The Hoarder is the big boy for Minmatar after these changes, as much as that idea sucks.

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#132 - 2013-06-19 16:11:30 UTC
I'll try to get a meeting tomorrow with Art and see if we can reach an agreement about the Mammoth. I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.

Look for a post with final word sometime tomorrow.

@ccp_rise

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-06-19 16:12:01 UTC
thats just meh-ish

cant you use the current models as placeholders for the new roles until new hulls are designed ?
Pirokobo
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-06-19 16:16:25 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.


The Gila may have guristas digital camo, and be the dual wielding pve god of drones and missiles, but it still looks like a shop class welding accident.
blazegryph
Corpy Hooves
#135 - 2013-06-19 16:20:43 UTC
Save the Mammoth!!

Ok, now being more serious.. the Hoarder us ugly and bloatsome while the mammoth is longer and bulkier, as an huge cargo hauler should be, taking in cosideration the cargohgold.
Even as if you CCP decide to give roles to al the minmatar t1 indusrials hulls, but keep the mammoth as the biggest cargohauler, i dont care if it is slow, untanked or takes ages to allign, but dont lower it's cargo capacity, is the King of the Rust!
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#136 - 2013-06-19 16:22:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.

Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3
Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3

There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:

Gallente: 38433m3
Minmatar: 28259m3

In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.

I prefer the new version


Actually, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that each race was previously "best" in one capacity, and it seemed pretty balanced to me. You want biggest t1 hauler cargo space? Go Gallente. You want biggest t2 hauler cargo space, for nullsec/whatever? Go Amarr. You want best wormhole-centric capabilities on a T2 covops transport? (i.e. probes AND warping cloaked and fast align) Go Minmatar. You want the biggest freighter cargo space? Go Caldari.

Now, Gallente have no "best in class" for anything useful. The extra midslot for more tank is, quite frankly, a joke.

If you're so happy to let us crosstrain now, why weren't you happy letting people crosstrain BEFORE if they wanted the best in class ship at the time?

There are good rebalances, and there are pointless ones. This is the latter.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#137 - 2013-06-19 16:25:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.

Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3
Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3

There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:

Gallente: 38433m3
Minmatar: 28259m3

In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.

I prefer the new version


I have no idea what game you play, but this is a game played by min/maxers. It could be a difference of 1m3 and people will just train the one with the larger cargo capacity.

Another thing you are not considering is new players coming in the game. All the older ones now will just coach them on training the one with the largest hold. Racial flavor and the subtle balances between these ships means nothing to new players. Cargo capacity is king.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#138 - 2013-06-19 16:28:28 UTC
Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II?

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Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Adunh Slavy
#139 - 2013-06-19 16:28:55 UTC
Any word on build costs? Assume that will follow past tericide patterns?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Abla Tive
#140 - 2013-06-19 16:29:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
honestly, just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.


Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.


You are looking at this wrong, think of it as an opportunity.
Everyone can already fly all the industrial ships (with only a few minutes of training).

So, choose one race to have the biggest industrial capacity and another to have the fastest.

Then take *all* the other ships and specialize them in some way (type of cargo being the obvious approach, maybe have one being a 'jeep' carrier or something.