These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

First post First post
Author
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#161 - 2013-06-19 17:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
CCP Rise wrote:

Will keep listening about the Mammoth. There isn't an enormous amount of them being used so it felt like it wouldn't be too painful of a transition if it was better for visual direction. I'm less concerned about the continuity with the T2 model, but the differences in cost, and the forced transition for people who were using the Mammoth are real issues. Keep feedback coming and I'll poke around on my side some more.


Art told you to use the Hoarder? It isnt even a T2 model for that ship, so in order to conserve art resources for more pressing tasks (POS hint hint) why not go with the ships that have a T2 model?

Also, the Mammoth actually looks like a hauler, while the Hoarder looks like....well, lets just say it needs help okay?

TDLR: Use the Mammoth Luke!
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#162 - 2013-06-19 17:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Taleden
CCP Rise wrote:
I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.


Aw, chin up -- we're only bashing the parts of this plan we don't like because you got the basics right so you don't need our feedback there. Yes, each race should have a viable option to fill each primary role, and yes, selecting any given primary role should require some compromise in other attributes. You've gotten those basics right, and even a lot of your implementation of them is fine, it's just a few particulars we're all harping on and those are easy to fix.

But I still think you're limiting your balance options too much by trying to have only two primary roles in play. Cargo capacity and agility are obvious things that people might want to optimize in various circumstances, but your options widen exponentially with every variable you can add.

A lot of folks here have been going to tankiness as that third variable, but I think there's a valid argument that T1 industrials just can't ever be tanky enough for that to really matter much. Someone else suggested differentiating between agility (which makes active piloting faster) and speed (which makes autopiloting faster), but I'm not sure that's a big enough difference for many folks to care about either. Other folks have suggested specialized bays, so there'd be a fast ship, a big general-purpose ship (~40k like now), and an even bigger special-purpose ship (maybe ~100k ore or PI only).

(Edit: Another option, as also mentioned earlier in this thread, is to forbid cargo expanders on industrials and increase base cargo to compensate. That in turn frees you up to make mid/low slot count and armor HP a meaningful differentiator without screwing the cargo capacity balance.)

All of those options have some downsides but I think you've got to pick something. Two variables is just not enough to differentiate 8-12 ships.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#163 - 2013-06-19 17:49:03 UTC
In for "save the Mammoth!" I already have two rigged Mammoths that I'd hate to have to swap out.

Nerfing the HP on the large haulers is a bad idea. They can already be taken out by a single ganker even if you have a moderate tank, but if you properly tank them you can be "safer." Dropping the HP as much as you have is just going to make tanking them a waste of time since you'll die anyway.

Why is Caldari getting screwed on the Badger II? Second slowest align time, lowest cargo hold, still has a paper tank.

Agree about the Itty 5 needing to remain the "top dog" for cargo. It's only 2%? Well, sure...except that extra 800 space pushes the Bestower over the edge to use another Giant Secure Container, adding another 900m3 advantage if you're using GSCs.

Really, I think there's too many ships for two few roles. Drop the racial industrials for ORE industrials. Maybe the T2 industrials as well, since there also aren't many roles there.

Freighters can stay the same, since they have reasonable tradeoffs between them.
Ellariona
B52 Bombers
#164 - 2013-06-19 17:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellariona
My two cents,

------------------------|-----Amarr----------------Caldari------------Gallente------------Minmatar
Base Hauler.........|......Sigil....................Badger Mark I.......Iteron Mark I...........Wreathe.
Capacity Hauler..|..................................Badger Mark II......Iteron Mark V...........................
Speed Hauler......|................................................................Iteron Mark III............Hoarder.
Tank Hauler........|.....Bestower................New skin...............Iteron Mark IV.........Mammoth.
Fleet Hauler........|.....New skin..............................................Iteron Mark V............................


    (ccp forum people, please insert BBcode tables)

  • Base hauler: A very cheap solution to base hauling needs for many pilots. Low stats.
  • Capacity hauler: Focused on optimized cargoholds, agility is average, all other stats below par or equal to base hauler.
  • Speed hauler: Focused on optimized agility and (warp)speed, cargohold is average, all other stats below par or equal to base hauler.
  • Tank hauler: Average cargohold (in between base hauler and capacity/speed haulers), good tank though (approx. 25k-30k ehp?), all other stats below par or equal to base hauler.
  • Fleet hauler: Less than average cargohold, perhaps even specialized bays only (charges, fuel, stront, scripts, paste, drones?), but perfect for speedtanking (low sig radius, both viable in armor and shield fleets with decent tank slots) with above average ehp if active s/a hardener mods are running. Not viable as top of the notch (either one) capacity/speed/tank hauler. Only base stats that are buffed are: less mass (better able to speedtank, agile, also nice for wh-people), more pg/cpu, less sig radius (bonus/level?). +1/2 lowslots for the amarr version (with nerfed cargo to compensate or special bays) and +1/2 mids for the gallente version (focused on shield fleets, since some gallente boats are great hybrids anyway, and to keep the fifth iteron in use). If tackled, they are easily killed (but viable for armor/shield logi to rep them also and can serve as baitship).


What do you think?

Oh here's some more cents,

On top of the existing classes you could then also introduce pirate faction industrials (smuggling ships).
Unforgiven Storm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#165 - 2013-06-19 17:56:11 UTC
DONT TOUCH THE F*CKING Mammoth!

That is best looking industrial of them all.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Joe Buzzard
Buzzard Bait and Salvage VLLC
#166 - 2013-06-19 18:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Buzzard
Are you actually telling me that by having trained Amarr Industrial V I have already trained the right thing?!? This is a tiericide first for me and I am uncertain as to how to react except to assume you will probably change it before going live.

As for the Hoarder - it is hideous - use the Mammoth. I can't think of an uglier vessel in Eve (even edges out the Imicus). You should make it the BR model so it spends most of its time cloaked. The art dept is trolling you. Or on crack. Or both.
marVLs
#167 - 2013-06-19 18:03:16 UTC
Save the MammothAttention

And for rest industrials i really hope You have some cool plans for new classes etc like:

- ore indy (ore hold like 150k)
- ships hauling
- PI hauler
etc
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#168 - 2013-06-19 18:03:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah.


I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.


I love ganking. Thank you for making my job easier, and increasing my tear reservoirs.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!

Dave stark
#169 - 2013-06-19 18:04:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah.


I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.

But yes, lowering the base hp on the Iteron V is obviously intentional. Now you actually have to make a decision between more safety versus the old version via the Iteron, or more cargo with increased vulnerability on the Iteron V (or somewhere inbetween using one of the otherss).


no you don't, you just jump in an orca with a MWD and have more ehp, cargo space, and lower align time.

would it be possible to make the t1 industrials useful for something without being laughed at by the orca in every respect?
Unforgiven Storm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-06-19 18:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
First correct the obvious epic mistake and put the Mammoth back has the cargo specialized ship and put the Hoarder in the reserve team.

Then transform the ITERON MARK II, ITERON MARK III, ITERON MARK IV and the Hoarder in specialized cargo ships.


Pick up the ITERON MARK II, ITERON MARK III, ITERON MARK IV, change their names, paint some different colors on them and give them specialized cargo holds, give one 50 m3 to transport ore related products, give the other 50 m3 to transport ice related products and give another 50m3 for PI related products.

Third pick up on the Hoarder and give it a specialized cargo hold for gas.

Then go to the BPO of the iteron mark III and transfer the invention part for the BPO of the iteron mark V BPO.


edit: I meant Hoarder not Wreathe, sorry

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Jattila Vrek
Green Visstick High
#171 - 2013-06-19 18:15:14 UTC
5 lowslots should give the Badger 23700 m3 cargo space, while your list gives it 18588 as if it has 4 lowslots. I think you gave it a lowslot too much.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-06-19 18:17:27 UTC
When might we see these on Sisi? I"m curious about the smuggling potential.
Kastar Alland
Dustdogs
#173 - 2013-06-19 18:21:25 UTC
Don't do this to me Rise. That Mammoth is a sight to behold, no matter what the art team says (this same art team that has redesigned the Apoc over, say, the Moa hull) I'm not sure I can put too much confidence in anyone who says the Hoarder is better looking.

Don't get me wrong, the new Apoc is lovely, as are all of the other redone ships - but come on guys!

I support the Return Of The Mammoth!
Rengerel en Distel
#174 - 2013-06-19 18:28:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah.


I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.

But yes, lowering the base hp on the Iteron V is obviously intentional. Now you actually have to make a decision between more safety versus the old version via the Iteron, or more cargo with increased vulnerability on the Iteron V (or somewhere inbetween using one of the otherss).


no you don't, you just jump in an orca with a MWD and have more ehp, cargo space, and lower align time.

would it be possible to make the t1 industrials useful for something without being laughed at by the orca in every respect?


You can't take an orca into a C1.
I still want a mini-freighter that can fit.

Level I : iteron I
Level II: iteron V
Level III: 40-50k ore hold
Level IV: 100-150k ship hold
Level V: 80-100k cargo hold

Make the new ships, leave the odd ships out as legacy, but remove the BPs from the npc stations. Make it an actual iteration on the ships, and not this "well, we need to do something, so ..." patch we're getting.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
#175 - 2013-06-19 18:30:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah.


I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.

But yes, lowering the base hp on the Iteron V is obviously intentional. Now you actually have to make a decision between more safety versus the old version via the Iteron, or more cargo with increased vulnerability on the Iteron V (or somewhere inbetween using one of the otherss).


Ok, heres some feedback from someone who kills t1 haulers that carry silly amounts of isk. First off, currently in TQ the iteron 5 can be tanked to completely ignore a tornado. 4 t2 Medium Shield Extenders and a t2 active EM Hardner. The MSEs give you a total of 4200additional shields. The hardner turns that into 8400ehp vs emp. This, combined with the iterons base shields and armor, allow you to survive a single nado shot just dipping into armor.

The proposed changes do not prevent the hauler from surviving. You will still be able to eat a t2 1400mm shot and live. Furthermore, you have given this ability to all of the 'not tanky' industrials with the exception of the bestower, which will die to the tornado.

Are you trying to allow t1 industrials that you claim are built to be not tanky still tank a single nado volley? If this is true then the Bestower needs 5 mids. If this is true then the main reason to get and use a DST (ability to tank a nado volley and still carry a large volume) has been completely removed. There is no reason to use a 100m+ DST over a cheap t1 hauler in hisec at all if this is true.

If this is not true, then I would seriously reccommend limiting the number of midslots on t1 haulers to 4 max. This way they must make sacrifices to their cargo capacity in the form of tanking rigs or a damage control unit in order to survive a tornado volley. But it still gives people a reason to buy and use DSTs.

TLDR; You are not 'more vulnerable' (or really vulnerable at all) on the cargo focused industrials. T1 haulers being able to tank a single nado removes the value of using a DST and unless you limit the number of midslots you have effectively removed the main reason for getting and using a DST in hisec.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#176 - 2013-06-19 18:31:23 UTC
Mammoth > Hoarder all day and every day, not to mention that there's no good reason to swap roles on the two ships and ruin a lot of people's riggings.

Otherwise, I think this is a decent start. My favorite change by far is the extra PWG for the smaller indys: finally, you can make more than one or two fitting choices.

I'm less enthusiastic about the big haulers losing slots--two highs are highly desirable for WH space--but at least I can understand the logic.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Theng Hofses
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#177 - 2013-06-19 18:38:49 UTC
The fixes are fine, but what remains is the huge gap between industrials and freighters. 40k m3 versus 300k m3/ 750k m3. What the game needs is a hauler that is larger than the industrial, but faster, smaller and cheaper than the freighters and not as expensive as a jump freighter. Ideally a class in the 100k m3 to 300k m3 range with a faster align time than freighters. I hope the rebalanced T2 industrials will fill that huge gap.
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2013-06-19 18:39:50 UTC
You could get rid of cargo expanders in general now that black ops don't really need them. Use that as a variable along with speed/tank.

You could also do things like warp strength and warp speed...there are a lot of things you could do with them if you, y'no, got a little innovative with them. Granted industrials are kinda boring but still. Why not go all hyperion on them?
Mattk50
Whale Girth
#179 - 2013-06-19 18:40:52 UTC
heh, the two high bit means gallente is still the king of capacity, as the itty IV has the most cargo while still maintaining two highslots
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#180 - 2013-06-19 18:46:39 UTC
Theng Hofses wrote:
The fixes are fine, but what remains is the huge gap between industrials and freighters. 40k m3 versus 300k m3/ 750k m3. What the game needs is a hauler that is larger than the industrial, but faster, smaller and cheaper than the freighters and not as expensive as a jump freighter. Ideally a class in the 100k m3 to 300k m3 range with a faster align time than freighters. I hope the rebalanced T2 industrials will fill that huge gap.
I suspect DSTs will go the ~100k m3 route when they get a proper rebalance. It's ridiculous that a mining support ship does the job better than one that takes a pilot with specialized skills in hauling. If CCP is serious about "specialization," and it seems like all the rage now, then all haulers in the line need to perform best at hauling.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<