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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#81 - 2013-06-19 14:52:46 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Please just get rid of racial haulers and give it to ORE. You didn't for mining ships, now please do it for the haulers and lets move on.

They did for the mining ships because it dust make sense to have a mining frigate and cruiser in the middle of a combat ship progression.
The industrials are in there own separate progression from the combat ships, including the fact they no longer require the racial frigate any more.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-06-19 14:54:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
For people focused on homoginization: The problem here is that we don't have a complex purpose that we are lazily fulfilling by having every ship do it the same way, what we have is a very simple purpose and far too many ships meant to fulfill it. I think the division between the 2 roles outlined here is functional, and adds a bit of depth to a relatively straight forward job, but what many of you are asking for is basically new jobs. As some have mentioned above, adding entirely new purposes to t1 industrials, or subdividing the current one adds a lot of complexity and doesn't even approach the issue of balance within the class we already have and use.

We talked about specialized bays and other unique purposes, but ultimately decided that, for now, it was important to make sure that pilots from races other than Gallente weren't compelled to cross train for an Iteron 5, and also that there was at least one reasonable alternative within your race depending on what purpose you had in mind. We want to improve on industry in general, but that is a much bigger proposition and I don't think t1 industrials is the right starting point.


As a good idea for specialization, why not:

1. A ship with max cargohold at the expense of slower speed
2. a ship with minimized align time for quickest movement through direct piloting
3. a ship with maximized velocity for quickest movement through autopilot

Having a ship that is faster than another while autopiloting but not as fast while directly piloting sounds like a pretty good deal...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-06-19 14:55:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)


Reminds me of when they thought the frills on the Vagabond looked stupid.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#84 - 2013-06-19 14:55:27 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Personaly I like idea of making superfluosu Mini and Gallente haulers specialised for specific cargo types, such as ice, minerals, gas, or allow them to provide specialised service such as fleet hangar or fitting. I would balance that by making general cargo ships for Matar and Gallente inferior to those of Caldary and Amarr. This way when one decides what industrial line to skill in to he would chose between access to specialised ships (Minmatar and Gallente line) or superior general cargo ships (Amarr and Caldari)



This seems reasonable, actually.


The skills are still useful, and reskilling to a different race is cheap and easy.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-06-19 14:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Jack Miton wrote:
tl;dr of changes:
bestower is now a giant f u to the people who spent a month training for itty 5s.

haulers only do 1 thing: have cargo capacity.
there's just no reason to have so many of them.
honestly, just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.
there should only be 3 of them, 1 holding 15k odd, decent tank, 1 holding 26k odd with ok tank, 1 holding 38k odd with bad tank.


It would be a massive refund in skillpoints... I almost want this, but that would be a total overhaul.... Which might be needed. If you like it, commit the art department to it.

Here's your skill tree.

Ore industry hauling level 1-5.
Ore hauling ship 1 (ship) 20k. Good tank. Requires hauling level 1 skill.
Ore hauling ship 2 (ship). 2 hold ship, maxed at 33k each hold, bad tank. Requires hauling level 3 skill. (Total m3 that can be hauled is 66,000m3, divided into two holds.

Once getting to level 4 in Ore industry skill, deep space transports and blockade runners open up (all races DST and blockade runners open up.

All deep space transports lose all low slots except for 1. mids and high can be balanced as needed.

Amarr DST, new ore and gas hauling. 190,000 m3 for hauling ore and gas only "note: compressed blocks included". +2 warp core stab ability (reinforced)

Gallente DST, the new Mass hauler. 110,000, m3 space (anything hauled). 0 warp core stab ability

Minmatar DST, the new Ice hauler. 210,000 m3 space for hauling ice and/or ice products (the ice blocks and the melted down ice products (isotopes, heavy water, ozone and stront). +2 warp core stab.

Caldari DST, the new Starbase Equipment Hauler and Planetary Interaction hauler, 220,000 m3 for hauling all starbase modules and planetarty interaction items only. +1 warp core stab ability.

All deep space transports skills change from repair bonuses to hit point and resist bonuses, which increase as the skill "transport" is trained up.

Blockade runners.

The blockade runners mirror the above changes of the deep space transport, but its m3 that it can haul is chopped down by 2/3 rd. they keep their cloak ability and their hold can't be scanned.

Freighters, skill change from racial specific industrial to the new ore skill. Also requires a racial ship skill to a certain level can be required.

Yaay!!!!

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#86 - 2013-06-19 15:01:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
honestly, just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.


Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.


Here is your lore:

In the year YC115, the war that raged between the empires continued to escalate both on the ground and amongst the stars. To focus resources on winning the war, Gallente discontinued all manufacturing of its industrials and hired ORE to commission new ones. The other empires quickly followed suit.

Lore problem solved. Next excuse?
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#87 - 2013-06-19 15:01:50 UTC
Two things about this proposal strike me as pointlessly irritating:

- The Itty5 losing its cargo crown to the Bestower is a slap in the face for everyone who trained Gal Indy 5 specifically to maximize their sub-capital hauling capacity (and for the record, that does not include me). That wold be fine if there was a solid reason for the change -- then you could give the customary "your 30 days' training granted you a benefit for a long time, but it has to change now and that's that" -- but in this case, there is no solid reason. The Bestower doesn't have to be bigger than the Itty5; they're so close that you might as well swap their numbers so that the Itty5 remains on top. The only reason to make the Itty5 worse than the new Bestower at exactly what the Itty5 was previously best at is if you're intentionally trying to be a jerk to current Itty5 pilots.

- The Mammoth<->Hoarder role swap. Does the art department's subjective visual preference really warrant forcing everyone in the game who currently owns a Mammoth to go buy a Hoarder to replace it? This is another pointless slap in the face for those folks, and it would be fine if there was a good solid justification, but since there isn't it just comes off as "f--- you guys".
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-06-19 15:03:25 UTC
How about t1s with dedicated ore compression holds? Basically you get some oversized ore holds that are like 20x to 30x the regular cargo capacity. They would be comparable to some of the t1 compression blueprints.

But they must be in 'compression mode' if there is any ore in them for the ship to undock. They couldn't compress in space. If ganked they wouldn't drop any more volume than what would fit in their normal size hull's hold. Otherwise, they have a frigate sized hold.
GRIEV3R
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#89 - 2013-06-19 15:09:38 UTC
- I for one support the new Bestower, but then again, I already have Amarr Industrial 5 trained up. I think the Bestower model is one of the best looking industrials.

- I love the way the Mammoth looks. Please let it remain the premier Minmatar industrial ship.

- I think the idea of removing all industrials and replacing them with 3 different ORE ships is promising.


MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#90 - 2013-06-19 15:10:50 UTC
re: Roles for the "extra" industrials like the Iteron II

Contraband hauler? Make the cargo hold immune or highly resistant to cargo scanning.

MDD
Aimee Maken
Atasaki Holdings
#91 - 2013-06-19 15:11:04 UTC
Why does the new wreath aligns slower than the sigil or the ittty?

the matar should have the fastest align, smallest sig, with weakest tank and smallest cargo space...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#92 - 2013-06-19 15:11:34 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Two things about this proposal strike me as pointlessly irritating:

- The Itty5 losing its cargo crown to the Bestower is a slap in the face for everyone who trained Gal Indy 5 specifically to maximize their sub-capital hauling capacity (and for the record, that does not include me). That wold be fine if there was a solid reason for the change -- then you could give the customary "your 30 days' training granted you a benefit for a long time, but it has to change now and that's that" -- but in this case, there is no solid reason. The Bestower doesn't have to be bigger than the Itty5; they're so close that you might as well swap their numbers so that the Itty5 remains on top. The only reason to make the Itty5 worse than the new Bestower at exactly what the Itty5 was previously best at is if you're intentionally trying to be a jerk to current Itty5 pilots.


So far as I can see, the Iteron V hasn't lost a single cubic metre of cargo space.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#93 - 2013-06-19 15:12:05 UTC
Seems CCP Rise wants to gloss over the T1 hauler changes to move on to more exciting HAC changes.

Maybe sideline the hauler changes until you or someone else wants to do them correctly.

_ _

JD No7
V I R I I
Dead Terrorists
#94 - 2013-06-19 15:12:13 UTC
Guys just stop posting and agree. Once this is done he's doing HACs :-)
Grunnax Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-06-19 15:12:33 UTC
CCP Rise: This has got nothing to do with the Industrials but this link to a thread should be looked at and heavily considered for an upcoming expansion as it would make insanely awesome content https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=248240&p=3

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Vhaine Vhindiscar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-06-19 15:18:24 UTC
Mammoth>Hoarder

Ignore your misguided sense of art direction....we've all seen the burst and moa.

Also, why are we 'fixing' this? Are you guys running out of important things to work on or are you just bored? Industrials are fine. They certainly don't need what basically amounts to a pointless stat redistribution. Now if you wanted to special holds for certain roles we could talk, but this just seems like change for chances sake.

Leave it alone.
Kari Juptris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-06-19 15:18:53 UTC
Dear CCP Art Team,

The Mammoth is an iconic Minmatar vessel. It should not be replaced by the Hoarder.

Thanks,
A Happy Customer Cool
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#98 - 2013-06-19 15:18:54 UTC
A problem I like to adress: Shield Tanking is still mandatory for all industrials as lows will be stuffed with Expanders. How about disallow cargo expander use for Industrials and giving them a higher base cargo (Like they had 4 expanders fitted for example.) and removing some low slots from all industrials. This way an Industrial could be fitted shield or armor.

The next problem is the rig disadvantage of the cargo rig. Maybe change that to an agility penalty?
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-06-19 15:19:23 UTC
I want to know why industrial ships have such outrageous CPU? I think the lowest base CPU is 750, and that's a pretty outrageous number considering they're not stacking highs with racks of weapons.

I mean the extra fitting is nice and all, but there comes a point where excess is just excess. I'm not even sure it's possible to use all that CPU in a fit even if you only have electronics 1. You even added CPU to ships when CPU has never been a limiting factor to any industrial fit.

Any reason for that?
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#100 - 2013-06-19 15:19:34 UTC
As much as I was looking forward to this, and as much as it pains me to say this, I'm simply not happy with the announced changes. You simultaneously marginalized already-existing ships and homogenized them WAY too much.

Firstly, there should have been three (3) categories for Industrials: the Tanky one, the Fast one, and the Large Cargo one.

The tanky ones would have been: Sigil Mark II, Badger Mark II, Hoarder and Iteron Mark III.
You could have accomplished the "tanky" role by having one of the ship bonuses be:

  • +4%/level resist bonuses (with increased structure hp and slot layout) for Caldari and Amarr

  • +hp to armor for Gallente

  • -sig radius (or increased shield HP) for Minmatar.

Each of these bonuses feel racial and fit the class well. The Sigil Mark II could have just been a Sigil with a slightly different color scheme, since that's not terribly difficult to implement and it's been done before.

The fast ones should have taken the role of the old blockade runners, in that they are extremely fast to align and warp, but the T1s would not get the BR warp bonus and certainly cannot warp while cloaked. However, they could be scanned, so low value cargo for AFK fast travel could be possible again (now that this role has been destroyed since BRs are unscannable loot pinatas). These ships would have been Sigil Mark I, Badger Mark I, Wreathe, Iteron Mark I.

Lastly, the large cargo ones would have been Bestower, Badger Mark III, Mammoth, and Iteron Mark V. The Badger Mark III would have been a reskin of the Bustard hull (since it has another cargo box) in T1 skins. Not time consuming to implement. Obviously, the bonuses would be like the proposed large-cargo ones.

The other ships, Iteron II and IV would simply be discontinued, as their hulls live on in the Viator and Occator.

* * *

For a slightly different take: that would have been a 'homogenized" version of the industrial redesign. However, CCP should consider that racial variants, especially the Industrials, don't ALWAYS have to have the same role, especially considering that it only takes Spaceship Command III now to train these hulls.

Why not have racially diverse specialization?? Why not make the Bestower the most tanky hauler, or the Iteron V able to carry the most PI goods? Why not diversify? If I want to haul lots of ore, I can train into the Minmatar Industrial line, where the Mammoth has a bonus ore hold. Or the Itty V has a bonus PI hold. Or hell, a ship can have a bonus Salvage, Ammo, etc. holds. This would add flavor and not additional training time, since I don't have to train into the racial frigate now. It makes sense that each race would offer something unique--a competitive advantage--that the other race's wouldn't.

It'd add variety to ships that we'd fly on a regular basis--instead of always seeing the Iteron V as it was before. Personally, I get that you want each race to be able to haul goods, but that doesn't mean that each must do it the same.

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