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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Indalecia
#41 - 2013-06-19 13:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Indalecia
I am not overall satisfied with these changes. I know you mentioned homogeneity was a concern but it still looks like you have more or less 4 variations of the exact same ship.

Adding specialized bays to industrials would have solved the issue rather elegantly, also lowering the pressure on low slots.

And DSTs need a big buff now.

EDIT: also, not making the Mammoth the bulky industrial doesn't seem very logical. Just look at the sheer size of the model! It's gigantic!

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Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-06-19 13:08:46 UTC
Well I get the balance of the T1 haulers. The ones with more cargo have to go higher. I'm thinking around 48,000 m3 with t2 rigs (just under the 50,000 threshold). Understand that these haulers are used in more places than just highsec. And people hate taking 30 trips to haul something.

In addition, I would relook at the deep space transport with this iteration right now also. I would suggest that the deep space transport double its hold size (in respect to these new t1 ships), but it be broken into two separate holds. So it can hold double the amount of a t1, but can't hold anything else differently than a t1 can hold (so no battleship hulls on the deep space transports). This would improve the use of the deep space transport, reward those who use them by cutting their duty use times in half as they can haul that much more.

The hold divide goes like this.

If the itty 5 rigged and expanded is at 39000, then the DST would get 2 holds, both equal to 39000 each. Not one giant hold, but two separate holds (similar to how the orca works).

The Deep Space Transports need to be reviewed with these ships also

This guy suggested the same thing, but is much clearer than me.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3022374

Yaay!!!!

Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#43 - 2013-06-19 13:09:03 UTC
Slightly disappointing, seems like a patch job more than anything else. 4 ships just kind of left in the wake.

Could we have details on the capacitor for these ships please. With so many low/mid slots on the iteron, the theory crafting on fitting is going to be big and needs this extra tidbit of info.
Valtrinor
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#44 - 2013-06-19 13:11:32 UTC
I see where most of this is going, and it makes sense. That said, I feel a need to add another echo into the mix about keeping the Mammoth as the Minmatar capacity-role industrial.

Also, since it's not been asked, what's the deal with removing the utility high from all of the capacity-role ships? (I'd assume most people put a cloak and tractor, tractor and salvager, etc.)

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Cydonia Davaham
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-06-19 13:14:18 UTC
i would have preferred more specialization then an omogenization,
not "you can skill every race, they are all the same" but more "you can skill every race, they are all useful in different ways).

Now you have to chose between:
-gallente with the best t1 and meh t2 transport
-amar meh t1 but the largest t2 cargo
-minmatar medium t1 with fastest t2 and double high slot for probe
-caldari good overall

Now you basically (and i fear will be the same with t2) pick whatever you want, your choice no longer counts, it's just a flavour.

What i would have done:
-All races having 4 t1 ships with the exception of gallente that keeps the 5 ships line
-all 4 ships have different role: tanky fast transport, ore transport, ship manitence bay, and large transport
-Gallent keep the largest transport as itty m5 with a good margin
-amarr best ore ship
-minmatar best tanky fast transport ship
-caldari would have the best ship manintence ship, but here comes the problem, those thips need to be tanky enough to protect what they are carring, and their model should go along with their role and dimension.
-the fifth iteron in the line of gallent, would be a very basic hauler. really cheap with the best basic stats,for example 20k cargo, but no slots (like a mini freighter)
Mainiac IV
Against All Authorititties
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#46 - 2013-06-19 13:18:47 UTC
All hail the new bestower!! Down with the gallente! Amarr victor!
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#47 - 2013-06-19 13:20:49 UTC
+1 to the idea of specialty holds for hauling different materials

Having holds for PI goop vs. packaged ships vs. minerals vs. shrink wraps would be a fun way to have reasons to fly a variety of industrials.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#48 - 2013-06-19 13:21:56 UTC
I admit that I do not understand why specialization for races is bad.

With the entry requirements dropped as they have been, anyone can turn around and step into any of these ships. When the only way to access the Iteron Mark V was to train Gallente Industry to V I understood why you wanted to make sure that there was a viable, somewhat closely resembled choice for players. People tended not to learn about the different options until they were somewhat vested in what they were flying.

However, the different races being good at particular things even to the point of a highly specialized Gallente industrial ship is a good thing. It adds an interesting aspect and facet to the races. The "we don't care you can fly this and make it work" from the Caldari state makes sense. Their focuses are elsewhere and their ship yards reflect their focuses. That gives uniqueness and appeal to the various classes to people that care about that. And that, in my opinion, is what is missing in the reflections of 'some racial flavor'.

Be bold and say, "This is what they do and they are cool with it."

The player base is going to go for the best (biggest option) for the most part. Look at the flood of Iteron V's. If people are going to care about numbers they are going to care about numbers. One singular ship will rise to the top time and time again. It seems like this fight for flavor should be more focused in the lore and aspects of the classes instead of trying to fight against players who are going to min/max the moment they run the numbers and present you with the best option. That best option will then be splashed across the internet and it will become the staple for people who are only flying this for the best option. Creating four clones of each other with differences of a few hundred k m3 isn't going to make anything more interesting.

I don't really understand this homogenization where every race can pretty much do what the others do maybe a bit better on this side. It seemed interesting when particular races were announced as being good at X and other races were their hard counter of Y but enough flexibility in the middle to give birth to creativity instead of squabbling over choices based off of which hull is the most attractive. With the low cost of entry for industrial ships making them unique and interesting against their fellows could be a lot of fun without harming people through training.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#49 - 2013-06-19 13:22:07 UTC
I'm guessing that a quick rollout of an additional Caldari/Amarr hull so that each race can have at least a third role would be out of the question?


Also as an idea for bonuses - how about a ship in each race getting a specialsed bay that will just take the relevant racial isotopes?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#50 - 2013-06-19 13:22:34 UTC
About extra roles: Just give them to the Gallente. This concern " giving them a job that was interesting and valuable but only available for Gallente and Minmatar felt unfair" is completely without merit. There is nothing unfair about recognizing that the best race in eve is the best. It sort of like saying its unfair to give the fastest driver in a race a trophy.

But if you must be equal: If you want to add extra roles like "fitting service", "fleet hangar" and "specialized cargo" to use up all the extra interons: Add 2 or 3 new ships to the other races just by adding a II or a III to the names of existing ships and use the same models. That would get five roles and five industrials for each race with not too much work.

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Sasha Angelis
Tax Evasion Corp 5347
#51 - 2013-06-19 13:23:42 UTC
Dunk Dinkle wrote:
+1 to the idea of specialty holds for hauling different materials

Having holds for PI goop vs. packaged ships vs. minerals vs. shrink wraps would be a fun way to have reasons to fly a variety of industrials.


Imo that's just adding unneccessary compexity to the game.

Also: Mammoth instead of Hoarder please! The Mammoth looks like an actuall transport ship.
Circumstantial Evidence
#52 - 2013-06-19 13:24:15 UTC
Can we get a statement from Art about why they picked Hoarder over Mammoth?

Another vote for "save the (soon to be extinct) Mammoth"
-The word "mammoth" sounds more capacious than "hoarder"
-The ship model is bigger. Nice symmetry to it.

Decision makes no sense without more information.
*Sadface*
Serith Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-06-19 13:26:26 UTC
I fail to see why using one of the Gallente Iteron hulls for something special would be game breaking. After all, a certain other race already has a non-game-breaking E-war battleship that no other race has an equivalent of.
I also want to see a hauler with a ship hauling bonus, and possibly a baby orca type ship that could hold a mining booster and a big ore bay for lower skill pilots as the step towards orca/rorq.

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Rengerel en Distel
#54 - 2013-06-19 13:26:34 UTC
Pretty disappointing. Seems like a 5 minute meeting was had in between talks about the AT.

And now saying T2 industrials are going to be last as well. You guys don't seem to have any idea how much of the daily life of EVE is based around people moving stuff around the universe.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#55 - 2013-06-19 13:27:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
.....
As you say, its resist vs repair. In the case of Indies, it would have had to be: resist vs nothing because Caldari/Amarr have no ship. This would have been the only case in the whole game of one race having access to a role that wasn't balanced in some way for the other races with another ship.

.....


What about EW battleships? One one race has one.

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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#56 - 2013-06-19 13:28:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I don't know exactly which numbers you are focusing on, but there should be no increase in t1 indie cargo capability as a class.

The old (current) Iteron 5 had 6000m3 base cargo, which translated to about 38500m3 cargo with expanders, level 5 indie skill, and expander rigs. The only new industrial to exceed that is the Bestower, which only does so by about 700m3 with the fully expanded version.

It may feel like a lot of increase capacity since before it was only available to Iteron 5 (which was over 10k expanded hold ahead of all the rest), and now its available to 4 ships. Or it may be that you're reading the numbers wrong =p


For example current Badger I max skills cargo rigs, T2 expanders 12,748 m3, your figure for new Badger I 18,588 m3.

I was going to say it takes some training to get into an Itty 5 but of course its doesn't any more which reinforces my feeling that it will soon be a little too easy and cheap to haul a lot of stuff .

Fear God and Thread Nought

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-06-19 13:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Sugar Kyle wrote:
I admit that I do not understand why specialization for races is bad.

With the entry requirements dropped as they have been, anyone can turn around and step into any of these ships. When the only way to access the Iteron Mark V was to train Gallente Industry to V I understood why you wanted to make sure that there was a viable, somewhat closely resembled choice for players. People tended not to learn about the different options until they were somewhat vested in what they were flying.

However, the different races being good at particular things even to the point of a highly specialized Gallente industrial ship is a good thing. It adds an interesting aspect and facet to the races. The "we don't care you can fly this and make it work" from the Caldari state makes sense. Their focuses are elsewhere and their ship yards reflect their focuses. That gives uniqueness and appeal to the various classes to people that care about that. And that, in my opinion, is what is missing in the reflections of 'some racial flavor'.

Be bold and say, "This is what they do and they are cool with it."

The player base is going to go for the best (biggest option) for the most part. Look at the flood of Iteron V's. If people are going to care about numbers they are going to care about numbers. One singular ship will rise to the top time and time again. It seems like this fight for flavor should be more focused in the lore and aspects of the classes instead of trying to fight against players who are going to min/max the moment they run the numbers and present you with the best option. That best option will then be splashed across the internet and it will become the staple for people who are only flying this for the best option. Creating four clones of each other with differences of a few hundred k m3 isn't going to make anything more interesting.

I don't really understand this homogenization where every race can pretty much do what the others do maybe a bit better on this side. It seemed interesting when particular races were announced as being good at X and other races were their hard counter of Y but enough flexibility in the middle to give birth to creativity instead of squabbling over choices based off of which hull is the most attractive. With the low cost of entry for industrial ships making them unique and interesting against their fellows could be a lot of fun without harming people through training.


It's training time and use. People want to move as much as possible, as fast as possible. Give us the ability to move more. The DST needs a massive cargo capacity increase. If the DST is fixed along with these ships, it would be a more acceptable change.

If I can haul 40000 in a t1, I should be able to haul 100,000 in a DST.

Yaay!!!!

Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries
Ocularis Inferno
#58 - 2013-06-19 13:40:20 UTC
I would love a t1 hauler with a specialized PI hold (maybe around 50k or so) along with a normal 20-30k hold for anything else.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#59 - 2013-06-19 13:41:20 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:

If I can haul 40000 in a t1, I should be able to haul 100,000 in a DST.


And how often have they told us about training time and higher leveled skills or specialization ships being a huge amount of investment for a rather small increase?

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Sedal Inkura
Reclusive Industries
#60 - 2013-06-19 13:46:41 UTC
Just another voice for the Mammoth being the Minmatar cargo-capacity T1 over the Hoarder. The Hoarder is quite hideous and should be decommissioned.