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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

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Author
Yur Ko
The Sith Syndicate
REFORD
#561 - 2013-06-06 10:29:49 UTC
Achaiah7 wrote:
Sorry if it's already been posted elsewhere but what about the electronics rigs that used to make hacking faster? Do they add any bonuses to the game or have they just been overlooked for now?

Thanks.


They do add Virus Coherence Bonus and also have a Access Difficulty Bonus Modifier (which probably should make those minigames easier)
Tyco Iinuit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#562 - 2013-06-06 11:31:04 UTC
Ok. some post behind this one I said that I didn´t like the mechanics of the scattering and some of the changes. Well, to be honest, after running 12 or so sites and traveling trough EVE I can only say that I changed my mind. I really started to enjoy the new minigame and even the loot scattering. Maybe it was only time and adaptation what I needed and feel nostalgic for the old system.


On a foot note I think cargo scanning should be eliminated from exploration relic and data sites cause it negates the scattering making you able to gather only what you want.
Yur Ko
The Sith Syndicate
REFORD
#563 - 2013-06-06 11:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Yur Ko
After 3 day of doing mainly exploration the feelings about this new system are mixed at best.

The best thing of the changes is obviously the new scanning overlay which makes it so much faster. Thanks for that. Yet it's not without a minor drawback -- most people would be just happy to disable it while they fly in fleet.

The hacking mini-game was interesting only during the first few sites. But as soon as you learn all the possibilities - which is soon - it definitely becomes boring. And the worst thing for me that it feels like playing poker - that is you very much dependent on luck - like in this attempt: http://imgur.com/J2vt0n9 No matter what are your skills you won't pass 4 virus suppressors + at least one restoration node (bye-bye 12 Intact Armor Plates Cry).
Yet I feel that there is a room for improvement. If we could make an informed decisions where to move (more like in chess) it would feel much much better. And when it becomes less luck dependent you can make fewer cans to crack but with more complicated game to hack and more rewarding loot.

And here it comes to "lootsplosion"... Evil As it is it's absolutely crappy click-fest. Of course you can bring an alt (or a friend) and catch almost all that matters but it feels so alien to Eve - even in combat you don't have to be champion of clicking to be successful. While here all you need is being able to hit minuscule rapid crap and do it fast...
For now I solved this problem by bringing an alt along but IMHO it would be better to scrap it altogether, or (if you feel like keeping it) make the time before containers disappear reasonably long - like 1min - so that you can gather all you want, yet it'll leave a window for all those ninja-looters Pirate
Yur Ko
The Sith Syndicate
REFORD
#564 - 2013-06-06 12:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Yur Ko
Idea And a new idea just hit my mind - you can keep lootsplosion (probably with even faster speed or shorter duration) for the occasion when you loose the mini-game. But if you win - you get it all conveniently laying on its place.

or

(personally I don't _really_ like it but it sounds fun) you can allow shooting at the containers to blow 'em up for those who feel like running after debris is ok, or if they're low on hacking skills or just don't feel like playing stupid games Blink

or both for the win Cool

(you'll probably have to remove the ability to scan contents of containers to make explosion a less viable route)
Mipe Kamach
Doomheim
#565 - 2013-06-06 12:39:40 UTC
Scanning I can deal with. It's a matter of patience with potential for great rewards.

Hacking I can deal with. It is the process of acquiring the reward.

Loot spewing? Now that I cannot deal with. It is like being taken away the lollipop you worked so hard for. It is a psychological thing - very undesirable one a that. You have to invest so much time, patience and effort to get to the reward only for it to slip between fingers.

TL;DR: Loot spewing is fail. You can blow frigates up with cruise missiles and even torpedoes, but the entire loot remains intact. You hack into those data/relic containers (SUCCESSFULLY, may I add) an the thing spews the hard-earned reward all over the space?

The time limit on these can is an added insult to the injury.

Take this however you will.
Kalithia11
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2013-06-06 19:05:04 UTC
Loot spewing is my only "problem" with the entire game at this point.

I actually really enjoy the probe and hacking changes since I sank significant skills into exploration and gear. The mini-game is fun and adds an element of fear/danger having to watch your own back more than you already do.

BUT. to have your hard earned loot just vanish before your eyes is incredibly tough and brutal. I even had a friend graciously help me out and we still were hard pressed to clean up all container contents. We tried several methods, all with low speeds set and "sides" picked out so we don't try to gather the same thing. When this doesn't work, there is a major problem.

I believe CCP officially stated isk per hour would remain unchanged vs. the old system. I have hacked the same few systems for years and based on the last 2 days I'm making significantly less and working a lot harder for it.

Please listen to the community.

Suggestions:

-Failed or partial successful hacks should result in a low quality loot spew or none at all, with the current timer enabled on the items.

-Successful hacks should have no timer or a much longer timer so solo players can grab all of their hard earned contents. Abolishing loot spew for successful hacks would be a dream come true.



Please reconsider what you've done, you took something that needed a low amount of effort and doubled its difficulty while adding risk of reward loss, its completely awful.
Rhubarb Kishunuba
Perkone
Caldari State
#567 - 2013-06-06 20:21:16 UTC
This has been the most enjoyable expansion for me so far. When I first heard about it I felt like it was made just for me. Exploration has been my favorite part of the game, but it always felt limited and incomplete. Odyssy actually realizes much of the potential of exploration.
The hacking minigame makes breaking into containers actually fun and interesting. Removing the monsters from sites allows me to actually explore in low sec and wormholes by myself without removing the sense of danger because I still have to hide from potential gankers(it's good that one can scan while cloaked now). The new ui for probe scanning is much better looking and intuitive to use. I love 99 percent of what you did with Odyssy. Great work.

However, I agree with many other people that the whole "pinata" mechanic just does not feel right. locating sites and unlocking their containers is slow,methodical work that I find enjoyable. Having to frantically fight with the camera while trying to pick up tiny icons with my mouse pointer while watching my hard earned loot vanish is frustrating and kills the whole experience.
Imagine working overtime to complete a project at your job and having your boss say, "OK, I have your weeks worth of pay here in a stack of dollar bills and I'm going to throw them into the wind. Good luck." I think exploration should be more like mining, in that a player locates a desired object(asteroid/ice/whatever), takes his/her ship over to it,collects the desired item from it,then moves on.

My suggestion for this would be to change it so that the containers work in a way similar to how they did before. Previously, containers would be in a "locked" state by default. Using a codebreaker or analyzer would "unlock" them so they could be opened by anyone. You could make it so that once someone successfully completed the hacking minigame the container would "unlock". The containers locked/unlocked status could be conveyed to everybody nearby by having a status light change from red to green in the overview or even on the object itself. That way, the player(s) who unlocked the container would be able to take all that they earned. This solution would also be conductive to pvp. Players looking to gank and steal could stalk explorers and pounce on them when the containers they were working on went green.

On another note, I do like the idea of cooperative exploration. Maybe some containers could be labeled something like "super secure data bank" and have in their description "this device has such a secure data network that it can only be defeated by x hackers working together". To get the container opened more than one player would have to use a data/relic analyzer on it at once. Then each player would have to conquer their own portion of the game board.

Another possibility for the future might be to give hacking some kind of role outside of just exploration. PVP ewar might be one possibility. Imagine if a skilled hacker in a fleet could hack an opposing ship to disable its engines, temporarily take control of it, or produce some other negative effect.

One final thought on exploration sites: Why not sometimes have the large structures found in sites be the actual objects to be hacked instead of only used as decorations? I have always wanted to have meaningful interaction with the the big rocks, destroyed ships, abandoned stations,etc I found in sites. It would be way cooler than always working on the same things. Maybe some day in the future the large objects could even be involved with simple puzzles presented in their description
Tabane Shinonono
Perkone
Caldari State
#568 - 2013-06-07 09:09:52 UTC
After getting a cargo scanner and knowing what kind of spew container to go for, I realised that a solo player can grab almost everything s/he is aiming for (ie, BPC/Decryptors/not so sure about t2 salvage though) without much effort.

TBH my loot that I want per container has doubled/tripled and I have not missed out on a single piece of Decryptor/BPC/Skillbook that could be dropped. Perhaps CCP could randomize or obfuscate what each spew container contains instead of like making it so easy with its parts/equipment/data/scrap containers.

Else , Decryptors might be going for 1m per pc soon at the rate we are picking them up like pebbles on the beach.

Hacking Minigame Loot Distribution : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243898&find=unread
Galatea Galilei
Summa Universalia
#569 - 2013-06-07 09:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Galatea Galilei
Tabane Shinonono wrote:
After getting a cargo scanner and knowing what kind of spew container to go for, I realised that a solo player can grab almost everything s/he is aiming for (ie, BPC/Decryptors/not so sure about t2 salvage though) without much effort.

A solo player with good dexterity, yes. Alas, for someone like me, who has great difficulty using the tiny icons in space even for stationary targets, exploration has simply become impossible, at least until the little containers show up on the overview, or we get some system like the tab-targeting in other games where you can cycle through and interact with objects in the scene using the keyboard.

Clicking on things on the overview is okay, the lines are wide enough that you only have to worry about one axis of movement (you need to get up/down right, how sideways the mouse moves while you're doing it doesn't matter), and you don't have to move very far to go from item to item, so I can do that accurately. But those tiny, tiny hitboxes for objects in space are very difficult to use on even stationary objects, and it takes me several seconds get the mouse properly over one so that I can click on it. That makes it flat-out impossible for moving objects. The only way I can get any loot at all is to just click rapidly in the general area and hope I hit something. Selecting what kind of container to grab is simply not an option. In the end, I get three or four random cans. Everything else goes up in smoke...

I guess if the intent was to turn EVE into an arcade game where the point is to reward players for being better at tasks of physical dexterity, I guess this change makes sense. This used to be more of a thinking-persons strategy game than a twitch-skill game, though, and it's really disappointing to have wasted all this time building up characters in a game that I thought I was going to be able to play, only to have the game changed into the kind of game that's all about dexterity instead of intelligence. That's a game I cannot play. Suddenly the game has moved into an entire different gaming genre, and it's one I cannot play in... I like games that are mentally challenging. I cannot play games that are physically challenging. Why did you need to remake EVE into the latter?
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#570 - 2013-06-07 09:53:35 UTC
Quick update on my personal experience with the new mini-profession sites since the release.

Full Disclosure:
I am one of the older EVE players, my reactions are no longer the best as I am developing arthritis and tendonitis.
I travel a lot for work so am usually playing on an 11" HiRes laptop screen (this is the largest size laptop that you can guarantee to be allowed to keep in the cabin of a plane as it fits under a seat).
I am usually playing using random hotel internet access. In the past month my access has varied from under 1Mb/s to over 50 Mb/s.

What I'm finding:
Scanning simply feels too easy now, it used to feel like you were working to get those hits but now it seems impossible to not get them in a couple of scan cycles. The sense of accomplishment has gone (yes, I know it wasn't overly hard before but now it really is press-button-get-bacon mode).

The hacking game is still fun but that's wearing thin already, it won't be long before it gets to the 'oh, that again, I can't be bothered' stage.

The pinata is currently worse on TQ than it was in any of the versions I tried on SiSi (other than the very first there). On average I collect 3 random cans. Yes, I cargo scan in advance but I might as well not bother - in fact I probably shouldn't as I then wouldn't know what I've missed (like the L ASB BPCs last night Sad).

The loot containers are far too small for the speed they are moving at on my screen. It's hard enough to get a click on a container, never mind to get the mouse-over to work to decide which one to click on. The mouse-over display tends to pop up after the mouse has moved on to something else.

In hisec I'm averaging roughly 1m ISK per data can, 100 ISK per relic can (I'm only doing them in hisec now as my Ishtar isn't optimised for the mini-profession sites). My overall income from these sites is down by around 80% although the time taken is up by a significant amount. Part of this is due to the sheer number of frisbees now flooding the market.

Given the reduction in income from these sites the only reason to do them has to be for the fun of it and they're really more frustrating than fun now.

Little things:
Had a DC while hacking a can (DCs are not unusual when using hotel internet). When I signed back in I warped back to the site. The can I had been hacking was gone but the rest were still there.

Although I'm still confused that Grav sites are now public they are quite funny in hisec. Previously they were almost like an exclusive social gathering where the chosen few would meet up and mine together peacefully for a while, usually fleeting up and chatting till the site was cleared. I've seen more than one exploration based corporation formed from those meetings. Now they're more like a feeding frenzy for the few minutes they exist as every miner in the system warps over to grab their little bit.


TL:DR - I don't think I'll bother with the mini-profession sites unless I'm bored. The explorers social club has been closed.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#571 - 2013-06-07 10:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruskarn Andedare
Galatea Galilei wrote:
Tabane Shinonono wrote:
After getting a cargo scanner and knowing what kind of spew container to go for, I realised that a solo player can grab almost everything s/he is aiming for (ie, BPC/Decryptors/not so sure about t2 salvage though) without much effort.

A solo player with good dexterity, yes. Alas, for someone like me, who has great difficulty using the tiny icons in space even for stationary targets, exploration has simply become impossible, at least until the little containers show up on the overview, or we get some system like the tab-targeting in other games where you can cycle through and interact with objects in the scene using the keyboard.

Clicking on things on the overview is okay, the lines are wide enough that you only have to worry about one axis of movement (you need to get up/down right, how sideways the mouse moves while you're doing it doesn't matter), and you don't have to move very far to go from item to item, so I can do that accurately. But those tiny, tiny hitboxes for objects in space are very difficult to use on even stationary objects, and it takes me several seconds get the mouse properly over one so that I can click on it. That makes it flat-out impossible for moving objects. The only way I can get any loot at all is to just click rapidly in the general area and hope I hit something. Selecting what kind of container to grab is simply not an option. In the end, I get three or four random cans. Everything else goes up in smoke...

I guess if the intent was to turn EVE into an arcade game where the point is to reward players for being better at tasks of physical dexterity, I guess this change makes sense. This used to be more of a thinking-persons strategy game than a twitch-skill game, though, and it's really disappointing to have wasted all this time building up characters in a game that I thought I was going to be able to play, only to have the game changed into the kind of game that's all about dexterity instead of intelligence. That's a game I cannot play. Suddenly the game has moved into an entire different gaming genre, and it's one I cannot play in... I like games that are mentally challenging. I cannot play games that are physically challenging. Why did you need to remake EVE into the latter?


You're not alone, unfortunately many of us that took up exploring previously are in the same boat as we all did it for similar reasons.

Exploration used to be the place for the thinking, patient types who didn't care if it took a while to get things done.

Time to try find a new niche in the game for the old / infirm / disabled as it would appear CCP doesn't want us playing exploration for now.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#572 - 2013-06-07 10:24:08 UTC
Exploration is no longer a profession but just another activity.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#573 - 2013-06-07 10:42:31 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Exploration is no longer a profession but just another activity.


and one that anyone can do without specialist skills as long as they have good reflexes and hand-eye co-ordination
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#574 - 2013-06-07 12:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
In regard to cargo scanner. It's the one thing that redeems the spew and makes it bearable for solo player. Without it you would never get a decent bpc because the goodies are in parts containers for vast majority of the data sites. The income also wouldn't roughly match pre Odyssey levels. Before the can names actualy had an influence on Sisi my average was pathetic.

I know it somewhat negates the original intent of the spew but at this point it's a necessity and the thing that makes the sites work despite all the negativity that was expressed in early Sisi testing. If CCP wants to buff group exploration to its original intend they need to find a solution to scale the loot and number of cans to the number of players on grid. Perhaps if the container registers fleet members of the hacker within 10km radius.

Tabane Shinonono wrote:
After getting a cargo scanner and knowing what kind of spew container to go for, I realised that a solo player can grab almost everything s/he is aiming for (ie, BPC/Decryptors/not so sure about t2 salvage though) without much effort.

TBH my loot that I want per container has doubled/tripled and I have not missed out on a single piece of Decryptor/BPC/Skillbook that could be dropped. Perhaps CCP could randomize or obfuscate what each spew container contains instead of like making it so easy with its parts/equipment/data/scrap containers.

Else , Decryptors might be going for 1m per pc soon at the rate we are picking them up like pebbles on the beach.

Hacking Minigame Loot Distribution : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243898&find=unread


Not feeling it. Average pre Odyssey was roughly 20m per low sec site, 100m per nullsec site (if i can believe those who did it before). That's roughly at the same levels where it is now.

CCP can always tweak loot tables if some items become too common and their price deteriorating.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#575 - 2013-06-07 12:21:42 UTC
I don't expect the cargo scanner method to stay. Mainly since it negates the main reason they added in the horrible mechanic, which is making it a group activity.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#576 - 2013-06-07 12:38:38 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
I don't expect the cargo scanner method to stay. Mainly since it negates the main reason they added in the horrible mechanic, which is making it a group activity.


It's a pretty crappy situation. On the hand i can see how it doesn't work as intended on the other hand i don't want the spew going back to how god awful it was in the early Sisi testing. I can't wrap my head around how this can be balanced in a way that makes it work for a group but doesn't ruin it for solo explorers.

Some sort of scaling mechanism is the best idea that i can come up with.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#577 - 2013-06-07 12:48:58 UTC
I have to say, I a few months the cargo scanning thing will negate all reason for the can spew to occur. I can get most of the loot that appears on the cargo scan solo.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#578 - 2013-06-07 13:02:23 UTC
I wonder how many people actualy tried group exploration in these last few days? Perhaps if numbers show that there really isn't much interest in group exploration (which i reckon) CCP can do away with this whole idea and spare us the pain.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#579 - 2013-06-07 13:06:52 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
I wonder how many people actualy tried group exploration in these last few days? Perhaps if numbers show that there really isn't much interest in group exploration (which i reckon) CCP can do away with this whole idea and spare us the pain.


And for some of us it is exactly that - real, physical pain
Sorcha Lothain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2013-06-08 04:41:33 UTC
There seems to be a pretty big difference between what I tried on the test server and what went live as far as the loot barf thing. All in all, it's really disappointing it was retained as a "successful" game mechanic.. The cargo scanner trick is equally disappointing. I'm sure it's still an excellent way to make some isk, but it's just not for me. I think for the time being I'm done with hacking and archaeology. I've only been playing this game a couple months now and I had focused most of my skills on exploration as my profession. Ded sites seem to be a pretty good way to make isk (and more fun too!).