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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

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stagz
Perkone
Caldari State
#321 - 2013-05-19 04:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: stagz
I cant stress enough how bad an approach this is to capital launchers under performing, nerfing min and gal capital turrets is ridiculous.
Dont nerf, buff. Bring energy turrents inline and bring capital launchers inline with their counter parts that actually perform and are useful.

When something is not overpowered, balance up via buffs for under performers, dont nerf things down in an attempt to balance.
Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2013-05-19 04:21:00 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Angelhunter wrote:
I would be fine with the tracking nerf if not for the fact you are still planning on nerfing Tracking Enhancers. Was the tracking enhancer nerf taken into consideration when you nerfed our blasters?

Also, the tracking is one thing, but the Optimal Range nerf needs to be revisited. Telling us we have to use 2 Tracking computers with scripts to be able to hit a tower is just a puzzler. Basically you are already dictating how we have to fit our ships to make them able to do their job.


People like you make me mad!!! Complain about having to fit a module they don't want to fit because it compromises not having something else instead.

In EvE to get something you have to give something, Kitting Ships have to sacrifice tank and damage for speed and agility. In this case you have to sacrifice capacitor upgrades and other utilities for more range and tracking. Give and Take is what EvE is about so quit B I T C H I N G.



FYI we already all fit multiple tracking computers on a Moros. If you don't know how ships are fitted for what purposes please don't attempt to knock what someone says. What you are failing to understand is that we now have to use optimal scripts simply to be able to do what the ship is designed to do in the first place.

Also its not bitching, its constructive commentary about a ships fittings and uses.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#323 - 2013-05-19 04:27:52 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
wallenbergaren wrote:
Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO.


At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.
To get in range now will require every Moros to warp right to the shield edge, which would be OK if it wasnt for the ******** bumping mechanics that will see half of the capital fleet flying off at ridiculous speed.

What part about losing 3% of your DPS did you not understand? Is that not almost negligible to the point where you can just bite the loss and not really care?
I mean seriously.
I'm guessing you also have no idea why he chose 31km for his metric. He chose that because that's actually the area where the greatest amount of DPS is lost. Any further away and your Moros with its enhanced falloff range actually begins to close the gap. Past 45km you actually start applying more damage than you did before.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#324 - 2013-05-19 04:30:36 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:
What you are failing to understand is that we now have to use optimal scripts simply to be able to do what the ship is designed to do in the first place.

Boohoo, you have to use a script. So what? Tracking speed is irrelevant when shooting structures (literally, I tried MWDing in a blaster Naga with a 500m orbit around a TCU once to test this, and I still hit just as well as when sitting still). You can afford to focus all of your TCs on optimal+falloff only.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#325 - 2013-05-19 04:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
stagz wrote:
I cant stress enough how bad an approach this is to capital launchers under performing, nerfing min and gal capital turrets is ridiculous.
Dont nerf, buff. Bring energy turrents inline and bring capital launchers inline with their counter parts that actually perform and are useful.

When something is not overpowered, balance up via buffs for under performers, dont nerf things down in an attempt to balance.

Nerfing one thing buffs everything else

You cannot do balance work with only buffs.. Thats called powercreeping


Power creeping is bad.


EDIT: Also to those who can't see why the Moros should lose range... the Moros actually had better damage application than the Naglfar up to like 60 km or more, thats kinda ridiculous.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2013-05-19 04:45:43 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelhunter wrote:
What you are failing to understand is that we now have to use optimal scripts simply to be able to do what the ship is designed to do in the first place.

Boohoo, you have to use a script. So what? Tracking speed is irrelevant when shooting structures (literally, I tried MWDing in a blaster Naga with a 500m orbit around a TCU once to test this, and I still hit just as well as when sitting still). You can afford to focus all of your TCs on optimal+falloff only.



They are used for more than just structure shooting. The point is that a 15% tracking nerf coupled with the Optimal nerf is just ridiculous. CCP should have brought the other weapon systems UP to where Hybrids are, not nerf them further to compensate for very poor and short sighted game design.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#327 - 2013-05-19 04:52:33 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


You cannot do balance work with only buffs.. Thats called powercreeping


I thought power creeping was just making old content irrelevant with something that is just straight up better.
Not just turning up the numbers for everything leaving nothing behind.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#328 - 2013-05-19 05:27:49 UTC
The irony in these nerfs is that the phoenix still sucks badly still when being compared to the nerfed dreads.It just changed levels of suckage.

From ridiculously to miserably.
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#329 - 2013-05-19 05:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
o/ Raivi

Love the changes, you probably remember how I pushed form some dread changes a while back. I had completely overlooked the fact that titans now use capital guns too and that much of the balancing might need to be done at the weapon level and not the ship.
Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2013-05-19 05:44:49 UTC
Hagika wrote:
The irony in these nerfs is that the phoenix still sucks badly still when being compared to the nerfed dreads.It just changed levels of suckage.

From ridiculously to miserably.



the true irony is that CCP was in such a hurry to push these changes that they didn't realize they hurt Titans even more. Congrats on really making them nothing more than a bridge.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#331 - 2013-05-19 05:53:47 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:
Hagika wrote:
The irony in these nerfs is that the phoenix still sucks badly still when being compared to the nerfed dreads.It just changed levels of suckage.

From ridiculously to miserably.



the true irony is that CCP was in such a hurry to push these changes that they didn't realize they hurt Titans even more. Congrats on really making them nothing more than a bridge.


Yep very true.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#332 - 2013-05-19 06:51:33 UTC
Antoine Jordan wrote:
damn dude i literally just ordered 2 moros last week, RIP me

give the moros back its drone bay imo


Still has the most dps, and practical dps application, by far. Moros with the guns now has more dps than it did with drone bay, so no, please dont nerf it back to drone bay status.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#333 - 2013-05-19 07:05:16 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:
Hagika wrote:
The irony in these nerfs is that the phoenix still sucks badly still when being compared to the nerfed dreads.It just changed levels of suckage.

From ridiculously to miserably.



the true irony is that CCP was in such a hurry to push these changes that they didn't realize they hurt Titans even more. Congrats on really making them nothing more than a bridge.

Yeah, this too.

CCP, you really need to think this one through. Owners of capitals and supers are the guys with multiple accounts, they're the ones who create content for the masses.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#334 - 2013-05-19 07:15:35 UTC
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:
Angelhunter wrote:
Hagika wrote:
The irony in these nerfs is that the phoenix still sucks badly still when being compared to the nerfed dreads.It just changed levels of suckage.

From ridiculously to miserably.



the true irony is that CCP was in such a hurry to push these changes that they didn't realize they hurt Titans even more. Congrats on really making them nothing more than a bridge.

Yeah, this too.

CCP, you really need to think this one through. Owners of capitals and supers are the guys with multiple accounts, they're the ones who create content for the masses.

So who was the last guy that said in a serious null alliance 'Hey, lets drop Titans on them fitted with XL guns because they are best in that role'
I ask this seriously, because everything I get told, shown and see says that Titans aren't used for their XL gun firepower already, it's just a bit of an after thought beyond the jump bridges & the Doomsdays.
stagz
Perkone
Caldari State
#335 - 2013-05-19 07:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: stagz
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
stagz wrote:
I cant stress enough how bad an approach this is to capital launchers under performing, nerfing min and gal capital turrets is ridiculous.
Dont nerf, buff. Bring energy turrents inline and bring capital launchers inline with their counter parts that actually perform and are useful.

When something is not overpowered, balance up via buffs for under performers, dont nerf things down in an attempt to balance.

Nerfing one thing buffs everything else

You cannot do balance work with only buffs.. Thats called powercreeping


Power creeping is bad.


EDIT: Also to those who can't see why the Moros should lose range... the Moros actually had better damage application than the Naglfar up to like 60 km or more, thats kinda ridiculous.


Capital tracking has been nerfed enough, nerfing it more doesnt fix the rational for the balance, which is to bring the pheonix back in line with other dreads.

Funny you mention power creep, as this is that very principal in reverse, every time ccp have touched capital turrets its been a creep downward eg Nerfed.
And now they are creeping downward again to bring pheonixs closer to Par, that makes sense?
How does nerfing Min and Gal turrets help pheonixs hit anything, it doesn't.
It just draggs two useful dreads down, neither Hybrid or Projectile cap turrets are OP they do not need nerfing.

If "power creep" is so horrendous surely reverse or negative creep should equally be avoided, its clear which direction capital turrets have been creeping in, and its not up.

Not to mention the flow on effect that Titans are going to cop, their Hull has already had tracking nerfed into oblivion, so much so that they are now only glorified stargates, now their turrent nerf is culminating for a double dip.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2013-05-19 07:22:55 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:

They are used for more than just structure shooting. The point is that a 15% tracking nerf coupled with the Optimal nerf is just ridiculous. CCP should have brought the other weapon systems UP to where Hybrids are, not nerf them further to compensate for very poor and short sighted game design.

So, your position is that the Moros' power level is 'just right' for a dreadnaught? Interesting, because just about everyone previous to this nerf seemed to be of the opinion that it was too good.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2013-05-19 07:26:52 UTC
Angelhunter wrote:

the true irony is that CCP was in such a hurry to push these changes that they didn't realize they hurt Titans even more. Congrats on really making them nothing more than a bridge.

Not so. They hurt two titans, and buffed two others. Besides, titans can be counter-buffed fairly easily by reducing the reduction in their damage to sub-caps or simply increasing their bonus to capital weapon systems' damage.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#338 - 2013-05-19 07:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Officer Nyota Uhura
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Besides, titans can be counter-buffed fairly easily by reducing the reduction in their damage to sub-caps or simply increasing their bonus to capital weapon systems' damage.

More spaghetti and chewing gum to hold the thing together...

I'm telling you: Using races as different roles for dreads would give more variety and uses for each dread. Trying to make them all fill exactly the same role always leads to one of them being better than the others and only few being used.
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#339 - 2013-05-19 07:37:44 UTC
I think the XL hybrids should be -5 +5 so they can hit pos properly with short range ammo but thats just me.

Are you ever going to fix citadel torps so they do full damage against all pos mods and not just the tower itself.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#340 - 2013-05-19 08:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Angelhunter wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelhunter wrote:
What you are failing to understand is that we now have to use optimal scripts simply to be able to do what the ship is designed to do in the first place.

Boohoo, you have to use a script. So what? Tracking speed is irrelevant when shooting structures (literally, I tried MWDing in a blaster Naga with a 500m orbit around a TCU once to test this, and I still hit just as well as when sitting still). You can afford to focus all of your TCs on optimal+falloff only.



They are used for more than just structure shooting. The point is that a 15% tracking nerf coupled with the Optimal nerf is just ridiculous. CCP should have brought the other weapon systems UP to where Hybrids are, not nerf them further to compensate for very poor and short sighted game design.

Yes, XL pulse does need to be buffed. But the Moros was overpowered, you can't really deny that. The Naglfar is pretty borderline OP at the moment as well, and it probably will continue to be after these changes.

The Moros is still going to be a good ship, you know.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)