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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Space Wanderer
#901 - 2013-05-14 07:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Jack Ogeko wrote:

scan time;
astro 5 [25%] + astro acquisition 3 [15%] + implant [10%] + first module [20%] + secend module [20 x 0,87 = 17,4%] + 3rd mod
[ 20 x 0.57 = 11,4]
= 98,8% x 10 sec = ? check results at sisi with timer, or i make someting wrong here?


You are doing it very wrong, I am afraid, sorry. Big smile

First of all, in EVE almost every bonus is multiplicative so you don't calculate it like base*(bonus+bonus+bonus) but like base*bonus*bonus*bonus.
The second problemis that in this case the bonus is decrementative in nature, so you do not calculate it like base*bonus but like base*(1-bonus).
Finally, you are factoring in the stacking penalty which in the current version of SISI is not working for acqusition modules.

So the correct formula for the current sisi build is: 10 sec * 0.75 (astro) * 0.85 (astro acq) * 0.9 (implant) * 0.6 (module. the T2 is 40%) * 0.6 * 0.6 (second and third module with bugged stacking penalty). You do the math. Big smile
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#902 - 2013-05-14 07:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Ogeko
hihi
kk
thnx, but this not chage much
at module is adnotation it take penalty from stacking penalty so i taking this for calculating
so it is below 1 sec or 3 sec, but thats way or another scan take much more at sisi now then should

btw, what is better? virtue omega or 10%scan deviation implant [with full set of lg virtue implants + 10% probe strenght]
Space Wanderer
#903 - 2013-05-14 09:19:26 UTC
Jack Ogeko wrote:
hihi
kk
thnx, but this not chage much
at module is adnotation it take penalty from stacking penalty so i taking this for calculating
so it is below 1 sec or 3 sec, but thats way or another scan take much more at sisi now then should


I am not sure I understand what you mean exactly. I just went on SISI, fitted a helios with enough modules to get a 2.3 seconds scan time, tried to scan (with core probes) and the scan took very little time. Then I put offline all the modules and ran another scan, which took MUCH longer. So, the reduction in scan time seems to be working for me. PErhaps I should use a timer to be sure that the first scan took less than 3 seconds, but I haven't one with me.
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#904 - 2013-05-14 09:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterAl tt1
Ali Aras wrote:

The thing is, most players who do not already scan aren't going to see the options to scan differently. Previous to this update, many people who tried scanning but did not invest themselves in exploration / ask a friend were not aware of the hotkeys to move probes together and resize them together. In the current state, they won't be aware of the hotkeys to move probes separately or resize them individually-- and they won't have to, because there's the workable diamond shape already provided.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing! New players will have an easier time getting into scanning as-is, especially with the sensor overlay.

I always used to think EVE is a game for those having brains to find out details about what they do, such as shortcuts. And I liked it for that. Now you are telling us "let it be for dummies". Maybe we are playing the wrong game?

And yeah, like it was said, you force us to use YOUR formations, if probes are moved to them by default.
Mhax Arthie
Doomheim
#905 - 2013-05-14 09:55:01 UTC
Scanning tutorial was (and still is) a nightmare for any newbie. I loved the exploration part of EVE but playing around with those probes was always a pita. The new changes are a blast, I absolutely love how the scanning works and more than everything the new scaning UI that finally give a modern touch to the oldish UI we have now. Big thanks to every single one involved into this upcoming expansion, awesome job.

One small request that I would have is to change a bit the colors on the scan results.. white bold font on light green background is not really reading friendly, maybe a darker green or blue would be more appropriate. Thanks!
Qual
Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
#906 - 2013-05-14 10:00:15 UTC
Funny story.

When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.

I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.

As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.

Is this new system perfect?

No.

Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?

No.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#907 - 2013-05-14 10:21:45 UTC
Qual wrote:
Funny story.

When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.

I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.

As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.

Is this new system perfect?

No.

Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?

No.


1. nobody 'loves' the current system. it's like the last US election: bad vs. unacceptable.
2. i know at least one person who would still prefer the 'old old' over the 'new old' system if the UI were tweaked a bit.
3. nobody said anything about the end of the world. we're eve players; we'll adapt. but the way it is now, it is still mostly garbage and the parts that are 'salvageable' are mostly NYI.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Qual
Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
#908 - 2013-05-14 11:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Qual
Daniel Plain wrote:


1. nobody 'loves' the current system. it's like the last US election: bad vs. unacceptable.
2. i know at least one person who would still prefer the 'old old' over the 'new old' system if the UI were tweaked a bit.
3. nobody said anything about the end of the world. we're eve players; we'll adapt. but the way it is now, it is still mostly garbage and the parts that are 'salvageable' are mostly NYI.


1. That very much an oppinion. Oppinion =/= fact. Personally i happen to like it, and few other I know do as well.
2. Old old had no real UI besides a result list. While I can remeber having fun with it, waiting 5-10 minutes pr. scan depending on skills got a bit old. Using half an hour to an hour to get one result was not uncommon. If he seriously liked that, well, I am glad he did not get to keep it.
3. Ok, I over did it. But people are in serious whine mode. Again.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#909 - 2013-05-14 12:12:31 UTC
since it is starting to look like we will have excess bonuses to our scan strength, how about lettings us scan down those wrecks ??
Space Wanderer
#910 - 2013-05-14 12:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Qual wrote:
Funny story.

When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing...


Nice story. Now try to tell a true one. Big smile

I spent all my time during apochrypha beta helping debugging the system. Before that I have been using the old probing system since revelations, and while the new system had (and still have) some issues, I had no doubt from the start that the new system was better. The same could be said for other people in the forum, and most importantly, they were seasoned explorers, with a deep understanding of the old system, who spent lot of time testing and understanding the new system. Most of them expressed reservations (I did myself) but I don't remember any of them stating that the new system was a failure. I certainly didn't.

Qual wrote:
And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.


This I remember. Lots of people were shouting left and right that the new scanning system was too difficult, even BEFORE deviation was inserted into the system, and part of them were "explorers". In the meanwhile however those who actually spent time not simply fiddling with the system, but trying to understand it were saying the opposite.

Qual wrote:
I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either.


Ah, now I see. You weren't happy, so every explorer wasn't, right? Big smile Well, I was reasonably happy with the new system, although I had as a reservation that it was too easy (and of course I still have them). And so many other explorers. As soon as I have some time I'll find a link to the old apochrypha thread and post it here, so we can check things without relying on memory.

Qual wrote:
Where CCP right though?


Indeed they were. On the other hand the scanning thread about apochrypha test center has nothing to do with this one. Most of it was spent on analyzing the new system. Do we have a "new system" here? Basically we don't. They have removed some functionalities, reimplemented a little part of them as an eyecandy interface which is not even integrated properly with the rest scanning interface, and added half of some long-asked-for interface feature in the most themeparkish possible way.

The underlying scanning system hasn't changed a single iota. I tested the scan strength formula and it's always the same. The unprobability cap is also the same. They just changed some limit conditions (interface and removed one type of probe) but the system stays the same.

The simple fact that you call it a "new system" is undermining most of your argument.

Qual wrote:
Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?

No.


Same could be said for Incarna... Now mind you, I agree that some of the things that they are putting inside are good. The discovery scanner, with proper work and balance has the potential to become the new intel tool that should allow to remove local. The biased formations could become a great feature if some customizable formations were allowed. The problem is, we have been sold this as an "exploration themed" expansion. How long will be before CCP actually works on those features before they become an asset to the scanning system? I don't see a commitment on exploration beyond the range of this expansion, and that worries me so much.

There is too much half-assed product in this game already.
Porucznik Borewicz
GreenSwarm
#911 - 2013-05-14 12:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Porucznik Borewicz
Space Wanderer wrote:
... The discovery scanner, with proper work and balance has the potential to become the new intel tool that should allow to remove local. ...

Ohhhhh the travel times when this "feature" actually comes around. Just... can't... wait...
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#912 - 2013-05-14 12:47:30 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.

As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the same...you still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point.


but you still cant move 7 pawns at the same time can you?

CCP like any company makes mistakes, look at Incarna, they got their balls kicked, Ody looks at this time capable of delivering the same again unless they listen, throw out their preconceptions and develop the game instead of change it to reflect what they see other companies doing as they all rush for short term cash. If you care about CCP, you personally would want to keep its unique selling points and remember that the game has kudos for its steep learning curve, harshness of consequences, the meta game environment, the inventiveness of the players (which exposes the limitations of a small design team that always wants shiny) and most importantly the SANDBOX that is only limited by the players intellect, thats what keeps people subscribing and draws long term players in (better have 1 man for 5 years than 5 for 1, for long term CCP survival.


Your 7 pawn analgoy is not valid. In chess 500 years ago you can only move one pawn at a time, even today it is one pawn at a time. You CAN move 7 probes at a time in either Retribution or Odyssey...this hasnt changed, thus your analogy is invalid.

If a company had to consult each of its subscribers before developing began...NOTHING would be done. It is great that EVE has awesome sandbox qualities and uniqueness; however, when you have such a huge ass steep cliff of learning curve...what do you off subscribers to WANT them to learn?

What I am hearing is, "I had to learn a long time and invest lots of skill time and real time to devlop my skills and now new players can do that from day one, so im pissed." Not every player in every game has the same learning experience, I suppose you would also like to have the return of learning skills too?? After all THAT is a steep learning curve having to train a whole month before even advancing in the game. This is not appealing to new players, and with new players we get new things to shoot at.


Ok i know you can, BUT it is undocumented, nowhere in the interface or Esc menu does it tell you about it, so how do rookies find the option, they research and if they research they would understand all the nice things you can already do and will soon lose to some extent.

Did i say they should consult the player base, NO I DID NOT, i´m saying they (aka CCP) should understand what makes EvE unique, what keeps people paying every month for years, you are being deliberately obtuse and misunderstanding what i´m saying as you don´t want to accept the essential value of it, people come to eve not because its follow this path, do this and that follow the yellow brick road to success and riches but because it is an open sandbox and presents (what it offers in your choice words) the player with a game that provides an intellectual challenge to those who rise to it, yeah some people just run level 4´s but the sandbox to a degree needs some at all levels and depths of activity, after all our activity provides food to someone else activity which in turn provides food for others.

BB is older than this, when i realised how deep the game could go i biomassed her so i could keep the name and kill the history and restarted her, then I got into exploration when Trinity was still current, by accident at a planet by hitting onboard scanner and went, umm nice so i went and developed all required skills over time to V as i saw the value without it being stuffed down my throat like a new born chick in the nest, also i´m being butt hurt by the decreased multiplier, but i´m not complaining about that am i!.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#913 - 2013-05-14 13:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
Qual wrote:
Funny story.

When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.

I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.

As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.

Is this new system perfect?

No.

Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?

No.

The old old system was very cumbersome, the DSP´s, Combats (my favs) and Core probes solved that issue, the additional see all low level DED´s to on-board scanner from anywhere took out lots of planet warping to find them and opened it up to the masses (and a few idiots these days in Tengus). It was an upgrade an improvement an opening out to the masses to an existing mechanic/interface, now as on Sisi an totally unworkable system over laided on the old coded mechanics with NO integration between the old and new interfaces, and lots of additional screen spam to those who dont give a toss about exploring.

This overhaul is a break, not only by not integrating with the existing system but with the visual aesthetics of EvE unlike the previous, this one forces it down your throat, after a few weeks of oversized gaudy shiny shiny every time you enter a system, you will be screaming to get a way to turn it off before your brains collapses to form the original eve gate.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#914 - 2013-05-14 13:45:41 UTC
Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:

Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)

Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Rengerel en Distel
#915 - 2013-05-14 14:26:11 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:

Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)

Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh.


Same here, if you start off with Show All, you have to switch to something else to get anything. Switching to Show All, it still doesn't show everything. I'm in a system with 4 anoms and 2 sigs, and it doesn't show the anoms after switching to sigs and back to Show All.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
CCP Paradox
#916 - 2013-05-14 14:28:22 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:

Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)

Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh.


Same here, if you start off with Show All, you have to switch to something else to get anything. Switching to Show All, it still doesn't show everything. I'm in a system with 4 anoms and 2 sigs, and it doesn't show the anoms after switching to sigs and back to Show All.



That's a bug that will be fixed in the next patch.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#917 - 2013-05-14 14:39:02 UTC
Awesome.

The data minigame is shaping up rather nicely, big improvement from its previous iteration - looking forward to the finished version.

Also, a good feature would be an ability to default your probe formation. When they're launched they go into spread - how about a "set as default" right click on the spread/pinpoint buttons and the ability to make them launch into pinpoint?

(Unless such feature already exists and I'm blind.)

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#918 - 2013-05-14 14:41:50 UTC
ok, so the only signal strength that I was unable to scan down was a 1% site.
Again my ship was a navitas with a T1 probe launcher and t1 scanner probes, no rigs, no implants, and Astrometrics 4.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#919 - 2013-05-14 15:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
So I got some time to check out probing on Sisi today, in particular combat probing for an FC (bombers or otherwise).


This current iteration has some major issues, I don't know if it's near final or anything but these are the unworkable elements as far as I am concerned:

Image to help explain: http://i.imgur.com/IN9eLIk.jpg


  • Cannot warp to things on grid greater than 150 KM away (100% where the new "warp to" button should be, right clicking result does not give warp options.)
  • Distances under 0.01 AU don't convert to KM. No idea where I'm about to warp my fleet other than "one of the ships of this type on grid". Note that I'm sorting by distance and both Erebus results are above the Rattlesnake, then check overview.
  • Can't sort results by ship class.
  • Can't sort results by ship type.
  • Names are centered strangely. Left-align of the overview works much better.
  • Can't resize "columns"? See: "rpion Navy Issue" in image.
  • White on bright green is not the most readable thing in the world.


All these issues are absolutely game breaking for combat probing at an FC level, except the last one Roll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#920 - 2013-05-14 15:32:43 UTC
Capqu wrote:
...


♫♪♫ I got a password on my TS3 an I ain't afraid to show it ♫♪♫