These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#721 - 2013-05-11 19:29:25 UTC
just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#722 - 2013-05-11 20:04:23 UTC
Solu Terona wrote:
just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff


Highsec really needs a buff in reward?
Space Wanderer
#723 - 2013-05-11 20:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Testing of the new modules: Feedback

Ok, since the new scanning modules have been seeded I tested them. For each of them I tested the T2 versions, since they are those that the experienced probers will be using anyway. Let's discuss them in sequence:

Pinpointing arrays II
Just equip four of them and forget that deviation is in the game... Just now I scanned a signature with an 8AU range, found a red dot, centered the formation on that result, dropped the range of formation all the way to 0.25AU and got a 100% signal, and my pinpointing skill is at 4... Why even having deviation in the game, in the first place?
Please rebalance.


Rangefinding arrays II
First of all they are bugged (ref. BR #157770). since they are much less effective than stated in their description. Still, by equipping two of them I reached a scan strength that would allow me to scan down a ship at the signature size cap without using virtue implants (although all the equip and skills were maxed out). And that cap has not been removed or changed, I tested that as well.
Perhaps the ship cap might be lowered/removed? Otherwise some rebalance might be advisable, especially after the bug is fixed.

Acquisition arrays II
The stacking penalty on those modules does not work (ref. BR #157766). Testing them with this bug leas to some worrying results, such as 2.3 seconds to perform a single scan. Consider a probing ship using probes in combination with directional scan, and a target ship has only 2.3 seconds to see the probes in its own directional scanner...
Please fix/rebalance

Additional comments:
1) They are all midslot modules. I foresee the cheetah and anathema to become obsolete very soon.
2) They are passive modules. I am not sure it is a good idea. If they were ACTIVE modules you would be forced to stay uncloaked to use them, thus adding an element of danger to those wishing to reap their rewards.
3) In essence dedicated probers will be forced to choose between no deviation, ability to scan down every ship without virtues, or having invisible probes (actually I think that the last two could also be combined). Poor probers... Big smile
4) Please rebalance.
Shuin Pa
Mentally Imbalanced
#724 - 2013-05-11 20:37:52 UTC
Thank you CCP for working to make us happy and for listening to our input.

Most of my input will be focused on combat probes. I am not an expert scanner by any means, but I have a specific purpose for combat probes on TQ. At first I was very dissappointed in the changes, but after a few hours of scanning myself down on Sisi, I began to warm up to it.

LIKES:
1) Centering probes is ALOT easier now. The screen is less cluttered and brackets are easier to see. Even just moving the map around is much easier now. Clean nice!
2) I like the patern concept, but it needs some work.
3) Launching 7 probes is appealing, but not all the time.

BUGS:
1) When changing the range on probes, the scanning window does not reflect the change until the scan is started.
2) Probes highlighted in the scanning window do not stay highlighted after scan. i.e. CRTL-A highlights all probes. Scan and now only 1 probe is highlighted.
3) Bug? When switching between probe formations the globes that show scan range get set to some default value. Please keep range set from previous formation.
4) Probe icon remains on the map screen after recalling probes and if a scan is done before bringing up the map there is no probe icon.
5) When using combat probes when 'Drones & Probes' are listed some show up as "Drones &" some show up as "Drone" even if they are the same trype of drones. The drones I saw were all HOBII
6) Ship Maintenence Array shows up as "Ship" in the scanning window.
7) The in space icon for the new space view scanning thingy does not update after a site has been found to 100%. Submitted bug report with screen shots.
8) Sometimes the Launcher mod in the HUD will stay on, cannot replicate 100%

ISSUES:
1) Must use 2 buttons ALT-SHIFT to adjust pattern size. These buttons are uncomfortable to push and use. ALT was much nicer.
2) Probe timer is missing.
3) Cannot copy sigs from scanning window.
4) Progress bar on scan strength is pretty but too fluffy. Our screens are loaded with information and realestate is important. I appreciate the effort to make this prettier, but sometimes a spreadsheet just needs to be a spreadsheet. The progress bars are also slow and waste resources. The bars are redundant, the % is listed on the left of the window.
5) Cannot sort sigs by type or strength.
6) Sometimes there is a strategic advantage to leaving probes in a system when one jumps out. 8-) Please remove the auto recall thingy.
7) Little off topic but the red bracket used for a ship in the scanning window is very difficult to see depending on room lighting. If that bracket were a brighter red or a different brighter color it would help alot! (or maybe bolded?)
8) When dropping probes, the default position is on the sun? Personally I prefer the default position to be where 'I' dropped them.
9) The check box for activating/deactivating a probe was easier than having to right click it to deativate. The ultimate impact of this is yet to be seen without the DSPs.
10) 7 probes is not enough? I see the base strength even on a ship with no probing mods is higher than on TQ. But that 8th probe fills the gap for a couple patterns used. Please give us back the 8th probe!

SUGGESTIONS:
1) Bring the ALT button back for resizing patterns.
2) Keep your patterns (although I don't fully understand the spread one /shrug) and launch 7 probes when those buttons are used. When the HUD Launcher button is used, just launch 1 probe. This way we can have our 4-5 probe patterns back by launching probes individually, and you can still use your patterns. (maybe ask the community to suggest patterns to use?)

COMPLAINTS:
1) DSP are a valuable tool for filtering ship size in a system. Personally I use them to find pods and dessies in systems where there maybe be 200+ ships in space. This is much more difficult and time consuming now. Or? was that the intent?
1a) I couldn't imagine living in a WH and having to filter through 30 sigs (EVERY DAY) to find the exit.
1b) The "Spread" pattern in no way even comes close to using a DSP because with rugular probes the signal is much stronger in the center than it is at the edges. Not to mention the gaps in the formation.
1c) We trained long and hard for the DSP and it was worth it.
2) I have to complain about the ALT+SHIFT button again. We are already used to the ALT button, pease keep it that way.

Thank you again for listening to your community!

Pa
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#725 - 2013-05-11 21:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitanga
Octoven wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.

the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.

focus people...


Im sorry you dont like change, there are some things they can tweak to make it better but get used to it because they obviously have taken developer time to put these features in. So like it or not, most WILL be in TQ come June 4. .




leave the overlay in as a novelty item. no one will use it
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#726 - 2013-05-11 21:29:05 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Solu Terona wrote:
just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff


Highsec really needs a buff in reward?

no, its fine for highsec. but if its reprisenting what low and null gets prof sites are worthless

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#727 - 2013-05-11 21:30:58 UTC
Jalequin wrote:
Unacceptable blindspots in the 'Spread' probe formation


My entire concern can be best summarized with this single image:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78696860/MiniSnaps/Static/EveOnlineSpreadProbeBLINDSPOTS.png
The bottom half is where I properly fixed the formation. Having it further spread would once again create small blindspots on the upper/lower portions in between the probes towards the center probe.


There are blindspots in this formation. The pinpoint formation is fine, however if the spread formation isn't changed then I don't see it ever being used.

The whole central probe is a blind spot. And that spread formation shouldn't be there, it greatly increase deviation. I don't see anyone using it, unless you want maximum coverage for minimum probes. But then it's not scanning. It's just watching.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Wadiest Yong
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#728 - 2013-05-11 21:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Wadiest Yong
Dear designers, having started my early EveO carreer as an explorer I can only look at Odyssey with enthusiasm. You are adding a lot of new and intricate life to the explorer gameplay. I understand you are hard at work making it more user friendly, allowing casual explorers to savour the sites, making probe positioning easier, even allowing the McDonald recipe to seep into the art of positioning probes, etc. However (here it comes), I have to voice a few concerns.

First and more in general, one of the unique points of Eve is that it offers ingame tools of great complexity, which can be used in many ways in a variety of contexts, sometimes to the astonishment of the developers (re the use of jet cans for mining as told by Hilmar during FanFest). Taking away tools leads to less creativity hence an impoverishment of the sandbox, especially when they are not replaced.
Second, in the specific case of probes, you opt to eliminate DSPs. These probes are unique in function, and are used by people who turned probing into an art form. Not many people use them. The new visual system scanner that you claim makes the DSPs obsolete does not have the same functionality, as it does not show ships or drones. I even doubt, from my brief tests on Sisi, that it has the same range as DSPs. It feels more like it has the same range as the directional scanner.
Third, admittedly the new scanner is a nice piece of eye candy drawing attention to exploring, but it is impractical, as anyone who wants to turn the ship's camera over 4π steradians will know. Wanting to get rid of Eve Tax Returns - to quote CCP Soundwave - is good, but at least save the information from that scanner as a table, or add a specal tab to the overview, or save it in the already existing scan result window as a new tab please. As it is shown now on Sisi, it's really data lost.
Four, you forgot to make the directional scanner automatic and give it a nice visual as well. We still have to spam the scan button. Sorry, couldn't resist the tongue in cheek comment P.
Five, why eliminate the use of survey probes on the usual launchers and force us to use specific launchers for surveying ? You are going the direction of having more variety in probe launchers than you have in probes. This looks gratuitous. Or will probing ships be allowed to fit more than one launcher now (as in an extra high slot, not one turret/missile slot less) ? Survey probes may look as they are PvE, but try surveying deep in enemy territory to collect strategic intel. You'll love to have other probes with you as well and will need them.
Six, allowing 7 (or 8 now?) probes to be launched by anyone is fun for the casual explorer who can't invest the time to master positioning probes efficiently. Not allowing to launch and position individual probes (7 or 8) would be detrimental in PvP, in large systems, in systems with many gates, in wormholes. Not allowing to launch probes of different types would be a further downgrade for obvious reasons.

The disconnect here is that probes are treated in Odyssey as pure PvE tools, and the design of the expansion focuses only on that aspect. In every day use probes serve a highly necessary role in PvP, and not only the combat probes, and that aspect seems to be left out here. Probing is a very specialized profession, not even an official one, and quite different from exploring. Not many people spend weeks to get to Astrometrics V, let alone the other skills associated with probing. So there aren't all that many voices to be heard. Except in this thread. Please reconsider the points listed above, with a focus on retaining the current high degree of flexibility.

I know many of us can be stern critics at times, especially when something new is in the works. Most of us probably agree that Odyssey looks to be an exciting new update. Gratz, and energy for the days ahead.
Qual
Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
#729 - 2013-05-11 21:50:41 UTC
OK, played a bit around with this, and here are a few thoughts:

1) Automatic DSP like scanning is a bit of game changer in WH, as looking for new incoming WH sigs suddenly got a lot easier.
2) The system dont give you the site name in the scan result. Is this by design or an oversight? I cant really decide if its a good or a bad thing....

As a long time scanner I will say that there is a lot to like here, looking forward to playing with the next iteration.
Blue Binary
Polychoron
#730 - 2013-05-11 22:00:30 UTC
Qual wrote:
OK, played a bit around with this, and here are a few thoughts:

1) Automatic DSP like scanning is a bit of game changer in WH, as looking for new incoming WH sigs suddenly got a lot easier.
2) The system dont give you the site name in the scan result. Is this by design or an oversight? I cant really decide if its a good or a bad thing....

As a long time scanner I will say that there is a lot to like here, looking forward to playing with the next iteration.

I think it's an oversight. The full site name still shows up if you mouseover on the result on the map.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#731 - 2013-05-11 22:34:52 UTC
Kitanga wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.

the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.

focus people...


Im sorry you dont like change, there are some things they can tweak to make it better but get used to it because they obviously have taken developer time to put these features in. So like it or not, most WILL be in TQ come June 4. .




BS. crap is crap. and that is what the overlay is. it has to go. and DSP has to stay.


Yeah...umm you get CCP right on that one...let me know how it works out for you. Smile
After Shok
Ruthenia Co
#732 - 2013-05-11 23:45:55 UTC
BUG - http://clip2net.com/s/538577
True Sansha's probes formation (8 probes):
Spread formation - http://clip2net.com/s/538dXt
Pinpoint formation - http://clip2net.com/s/538a7a and http://clip2net.com/s/538cF4

Правдой нельзя оскорбить, уважаемый адвокат!

Тот самый Мюнхгаузен

Золотая орка
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#733 - 2013-05-12 00:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
Kitanga wrote:
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.

the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.

focus people...


Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP, some of what they want to introduce like the stolen idea from a python injection for the probe launch and layout system could have been worked into a revamped on-board scanner window or tab within it which could/should be renamed/relabelled to match. Additionally the multiple probe launch and various probe layout options could/should have been button activated options to allow ease of use by inexperience prober's while giving experienced unconventional high skilled prober's (elite certificate level people) access to already used mechanics, you don't change what works.

The show in space bracket options again could/should have been the addition of a simple button to turn on/off function in the scanner window and additionally it could have been added to the new radial menu idea as well. as i´m certain that some sheep brained developers/designers like it from other games they play and are so used to it they cannot think without it (again doing away with the eve lore, #if in doubt right click"). Additionally the displayed results should be listed in the scanner window in the overlay tab to stop EvE becoming station spinning in space, but the worst thing is listing all signatures, if you need a probe to find it then you should have to use a probe to know its there. Additionally DSP´s have functionality that the overlay does not give (Structures, Ships and Drones), this is literally killing the jet can, the unseen/unthoughtf of/unintended uses players who used them found,/discovered that quickly got utilised and greatly expanded game play. Hilmar himself opined in wonder at the inventiveness of players use of the basic tools delivered as an aspect that makes EvE great and gives it such a long life. the removal of these actually damages the game in many respects, or was Hilmar just spouting platitudes in the keynote.

I do wonder about listing/displaying brackets for what are now classed as grav sites, is it because they were under utilised by miners?, the reasoning behind the down grading is not clear. Clearer heads would have expanded the Ice Belt revamp, removed all asteroid belts and just converted them all into maximum regenerated 3 day duration grav sites to the overlay display (same #-ish per system, same layout for ease of implementation) and left the non sec status existing grav site asteroids requiring probes as they are a bonus in the system, not a natural event.

The current adjustable width and sortable results columns could have been left as is and a coloured progress bar as envisioned could have been overlaid in more subtle colours, the use-ability of what we have has been removed so just the new eye candy remains, it complicates as it makes clearer, heavy use will prove this point over time. The Warp to button is only useful for a rookie tutorial, the right click menus are universal in EvE, "if in doubt right click" is lore, options like warp to x distance are required, hitting zero unprepared in a hot site will cause newer players lots of tears over lost ships (and probably lots of GM time explaining that using the button is a risk).

I honestly do not know why they tried to re invent the wheel and made it oval, instead of looking at it and making basic design and material additions/changes thereby making it an expansion to the existing EvE client instead of another WiS type face palm where arrogance for the new and shiny overtakes common sense, lessons seem to have been forgotten.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#734 - 2013-05-12 00:09:35 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP,

That's the worst possible argument you can bring in debate.
"But we spend so much time building this pile of ****! It can't be wrong!"

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#735 - 2013-05-12 00:15:29 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP,

That's the worst possible argument you can bring in debate.
"But we spend so much time building this pile of ****! It can't be wrong!"


read it all, they have some decent code lines that could be utilised in a far better way, you have to look at time investment and how to save something from the crapheap, after all its our money they are pissing/snorting away

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#736 - 2013-05-12 00:19:40 UTC
Space Wanderer wrote:
Rangefinding arrays II
Still, by equipping two of them I reached a scan strength that would allow me to scan down a ship at the signature size cap without using virtue implants (although all the equip and skills were maxed out). And that cap has not been removed or changed, I tested that as well.


Cool ! Let's make sure to go into the wrong direction to fix sniping !

Please CCP, let us become unprobable A LOT MORE easily for sub-cap ships.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#737 - 2013-05-12 00:30:47 UTC
Nitrah wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people...

Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing.

for lazy scrubs like you, maybe.
for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#738 - 2013-05-12 00:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Jack Miton wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people...

Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing.

for lazy scrubs like you, maybe.
for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much.

this very much.

edit: although i will have to clarify: i am very much in favor of having to fight against the proverbial cold harsh universe as well as other players. you should NOT have to fight against a tedious, badly designed UI (not that the new UI is much better than the old one).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Rammix
TheMurk
#739 - 2013-05-12 01:27:30 UTC
Penny Ibramovic wrote:

I have to constantly hold shift to move a single probe, and when I let go the probe box disappears. This is clearly not what I am asking for, which is to have similar functionality to what is in TQ at the moment.

Being able to move probes as individual units is very important for hunting ships successfully.

As I've already mentioned, in the quoted text above, the new interface helps with scanning systems, but it is clearly not designed for hunting. They are different tasks that require different methods. Linked probes are great for general scanning, unlinked probes are necessary for hunting.

And surely this request shouldn't be difficult to implement, by your own claim. Linked mode has shift being used as a modifier to move probes individually. Toggle a switch, and you get unlinked mode, where all probe boxes are visible and probes are moved individually by default and shift is used as a modifier to move them all together. All the toggle does is use a soft shift-key switch.

I have no doubt that his feature will be used if implemented.

I strongly approve and enforce this opinion.
With one addition: soft shift-key for unlinked movement is not enough, because the probes will still draw to the center when you change their range this way. Old-fashioned unlinked movement (as an option) - when probes can be moved totally separately - would be better. (moar options!)

Shuin Pa wrote:
DSP are a valuable tool for filtering ship size in a system. Personally I use them to find pods and dessies in systems where there maybe be 200+ ships in space. This is much more difficult and time consuming now. Or? was that the intent?

And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.

Garratam wrote:
The new system scan after you have entered a new system is pretty neat (especially the shown signatures strengthes of 3, 5 and 10% which allow to filter out unwanted sizes, like when you're only scanning K162 WHs), although it is somewhat tedious to mouseover all the signatures to get the scan strengthes. It would be nice if the results visible in space would also appear in the scan window.

But please, only anomalies (100% scan strength), not signatures.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#740 - 2013-05-12 01:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
Jack Miton wrote:
for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much.

"Effort" should not mean "busy work". Clicking and dragging probes around in a hard to use interface is busy work. "Effort" should mean"challenging".... Challenging is when there are obstacles, puzzles, and opponents to overcome in an experience that changes each time you do it... i.e. not Aprocrapha style probing, which is always the same boring thing.

*The most interesting thing about it was figuring it out... after your thousandth scan... it's a mind numbing tedium. By having the Preset formations, much of the whole "figuring out" process is gone... so you're just left with the tedium.