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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#361 - 2013-05-09 19:45:57 UTC
Two step wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:

Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?

Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.

4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?

If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.

/facepalm



I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread.


Not surprising. I saw your earlier post and knew no one was consulted. The 7 probe formation yells noob. Removal of DSP and distance screams ignorance. By all means make it accessible, but leave some depth to probing.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#362 - 2013-05-09 19:50:08 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..


If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points.


I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc..

I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..
Haulie Berry
#363 - 2013-05-09 19:55:35 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..


If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points.


I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc..

I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..


Oh, ffs...

Too bad, guy. Seriously. Skills change all the time without reimbursement. The same whiny, entitled begging took place when they introduced datacores to FW. "Whaaa, my research skills are USELESS now!"

Well, no, the skills aren't useless. They still have important in-game uses. They're just no longer used the way YOU used them. You're still deriving a benefit from them. It's a different benefit, and it may not be a benefit you personally feel is worth the SPs, but that's a personal problem, and letting you suffer through it is clearly preferable to having to reimburse everyone for everything every time they make a change to game mechanics.

Get over it.
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#364 - 2013-05-09 19:57:40 UTC
I'm about 10 pages behind on reading this thread, but wanted to get my feedback in from what I saw last night...


The Good:
• After scanning for an hour on SiSi, then going back to Tranquility, the old system felt very repetitive. The overall ease of use with the new system is great for most scanning activities that I perform.

• Pinpoint formation and probes moving in/out while changing scan range is beautiful, and a real time saver!


The Bad:
• Being able to see signatures without dropping a probe is very disappointing. I've liked how signatures were not visible to those who chose not to probe for them. By launching probes and scanning I felt like I was exploring and finding something that many (most?) players pass-by everyday.

It doesn't really seem like "exploration" if all it takes entering a system to "discover" everything that is there.

• While the scanning system seemed easier, it was frustratingly difficult to do anything other than "standard formations" with 7 probes. It felt like I was being penalized if I wanted to use any of the little tricks I've learned from my previous years of scanning.

• 8 probes... it's been stated before, not everyone uses 7 probes to scan for a single sig at once.

• Only 7 probes launched at once... There are many time I only want one or two probes. Seeing 7 probes pop-up on D-Scan is much easier than one or two. If not, and probes can only be launched 7 at a time, then why not make the a single probe item a "pack of 7"?

• DSP being removed... the reason I trained to lvl V was to unlock a probe. Now that the probe is gone, there's little reason to invest the time into training the skills past what is convenient.

• Skills for using +1 probe being removed... I always liked that there was a benefit to training to use additional probes. Someone with lower skills could find some sites, but not all of them... or it would take longer. I had an advantage for investing time to train a skill. Now, with everyone getting 7 probes at level 1, it doesn't feel as rewarding.

I like the idea of having exploration open to everyone, but there should be an advantage to specializing... right now it seems that advantage has been removed completely.

• UI still needs refinement... Not being able to resize the column widths makes seeing the names of sites difficult (unless you windows are large), and signatures should be sortable based on the various information (name, site type, sig strength, etc.). Warp-to button is bulky and not something I'd ever use... maybe a "bookmark" button? But honestly I'd rather just click for a context menu and have the extra room for sig information.

• Probes automatically in formation around the sun (not me)... often times I want to have the probes close to me (not the sun) until I send them out into the system.

• Spread formation has gaps in it, and I couldn't' find an easy way to change the scan res of the probes by click/drag without adjusting the probe spacing as well. With the new mechanics I'd likely just use the pinpoint formation for everything (even initially scanning the whole system).

• Mid-slot scanning modules, combined with mid-slot archeology/hacking modules, means even less chance to have a "all-in-one" exploration ship.


Increasing the depth of the exploration profession
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2013-05-09 20:00:38 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..


If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points.


I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc..

I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..


So, how is your situation different from a Archon pilot who does not plan to fly Amarr Battleships? Or the Orca pilot who does not wish to fly mining barges? The Sleipnir pilot who doesn't plan on flying HACs?
Bum Shadow
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#366 - 2013-05-09 20:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bum Shadow
I just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings.

Not only is it a big change, its completely unintuitive and difficult to wield. Obviously i'm slightly bias because im already comfortable with the old system. However the old system actually worked extremely well. What is the purpose of making us now hold shift and alt to contract/expand our formation? Why would you do that?

I can ALMOST understand why you reversed the shift keys function, you launch in formation now and you move probes in formation mostly. So that kind of makes sense. But just restore the ALT key press. Or even better, let us bind everything ourselves.



I understand in some regard the removal of DSPs (though I am extremely pissed you removed them!) Part of the frustration is that you only ID the signature group in your last 2-3 scans. Lets say you start out at 32 AU and shrink and scan 1 size at a time. Its only at 1AU (for the good sigs) that you even ID it as an unknown/ladar/grav etc etc.

you gain 1% per scan until about 1AU. then you jump right to 60% then you pin it 100% next scan. With a removal of DSPs. I'd like you to smooth that curve out meaning we can hit that first 25% much easier at greater sizes and therefor much more easily determin what we want and what we dont.


Scanning for sites can be enjoyable. But scanning 40 sites you dont want. to find 1 you do is not fun, its extremely frustrating. DSPs allowed exploration to be a lot more enjoyable as you spend more time playing content and less time getting angry at "another unknown sig" so please, if you're going to eliminate this functionality all together, at least consider the function of the old DSPs and attempt to meet at some middle ground.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#367 - 2013-05-09 20:04:44 UTC
Lets try not to turn this into a "wah I want my skills reimbursed thread". There are much more important matter at stake here.
Innabiggahurry
Doomheim
#368 - 2013-05-09 20:05:38 UTC
The sheer number of people in this thread who haven't bothered to read, think, and then post is staggering.

Astrometrics: Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level

Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.

It should be obvious how those two things work together. It should also be obvious why you would still want to train Astrometrics V even though DSPs are being removed.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#369 - 2013-05-09 20:07:44 UTC
Robus Muvila wrote:
Two step wrote:

CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com



hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Blink

Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM.....
SemperAtrox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#370 - 2013-05-09 20:10:23 UTC
Why do you remove DSP?! i live in a huge W-space where a single DSP at full range at the star can warn me about a ship entering or decloaking anywhere in the system. 7 combats can't see the whole system. And why to launch 7 probes at once?...
Jim Womack
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2013-05-09 20:11:50 UTC
*stuff I'm Sure that has already been said"

Would be nice if probes deployed around my ship and not default to the sun. I realize the probes still physically drop around my ship however the first scan pattern defaults at the star

I'm unsure why there is a reconnect to lost probes button still when they auto pull on docking jumping ect... maybe its for a client disconnect but I haven't experienced that on the test server.

The ability to copy and paste sig id's is a huge thing for my and many other w-space corps and the new awesome ability to drop all probes at once is kinda negated by the fact we can no longer group paste all the sig id's in a system for scanning. So we basically gained something pretty awesome and at the same time lost another. ... sadness

The new scan feature is visually pleasing but it would be nice if I had a option to turn the auto repeat feature off so that I can still see the pretty new anoms/sigs in space but don't have to have a seizure every 5 seconds as the system scan effect is pretty in your face loud compared to the rest of the game.

would be nice if the system scanner window on the probes Range would update as I drag the bubble size out or down as its easy to forget what au I'm scanning at now

while scanning some sigs that I had scanned to 100% would drop off the scan results at random and would have to be re-scanned down.

there is no probe timer anywhere so we have no clue when the probes expire.


I'm sure there are more thing but this is just my first impression..
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#372 - 2013-05-09 20:12:39 UTC
Bum Shadow wrote:
But i just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings.


Well, probably because Shift-Drag and Alt-Resize were the 2 most commonly used movement options. Now it's intuitive, because I rarely want to move only one probe around.
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#373 - 2013-05-09 20:13:21 UTC
Innabiggahurry wrote:
The sheer number of people in this thread who haven't bothered to read, think, and then post is staggering.

Astrometrics: Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level

Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.

It should be obvious how those two things work together. It should also be obvious why you would still want to train Astrometrics V even though DSPs are being removed.






It's not obvious. 5% on scan strength is the only real extremely minor benefit. Scan deviation and time are pretty irrelevant. Astro 5 was for 8 probes and DSP.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#374 - 2013-05-09 20:13:32 UTC
-8 probes
-deep space probes
-let us launch probes individually if we so desire

That is all.
Haulie Berry
#375 - 2013-05-09 20:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Now, with the new modules and the general increase in ease, I think it might be worth it to consider making signatures harder to pinpoint.

Right now, with max skills, in an unbonused ship with a T1 launcher, standard probes, and no related rigs or implants, I can scan down any PvE sig except the very weakest strength-category (maybe the second weakest as well, but those were always grav sites, so I never bother, and they're no longer going to exist, so it's moot).

Or, in other words: I can trivially scan down any signature that I am actually interested in exploring (combat sites). I don't need to make any particular compromises at all to do this. I can use the most basic, unaugmented setup and still find the best sites.

I kind of feel like there is a lot of wiggle room, especially with the introduction of new modules, to slide the whole signature spectrum down a few notches in strength.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#376 - 2013-05-09 20:15:08 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Two step wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:

Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?

Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.

4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?

If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.

/facepalm



I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread.


Not surprising. I saw your earlier post and knew no one was consulted. The 7 probe formation yells noob. Removal of DSP and distance screams ignorance. By all means make it accessible, but leave some depth to probing.

Yes pretty much spot on. When I first heard the proposals I had a feeling the hadn't actually consulted anyone who actually scans in the game and knows about its intricacies. This is even more evident testing it on Singularity right now.

Two things CCP should do right now to sort this out in my opinion -

1. Allow amount of probes launched to be selected by right clicking the module from 1 probe up to 8.

2. Bring back the scanning overview with all the cosmic signatures displayed.

They could do more, but I think for a minimum they need to bring back the scanning overview. It is kind of stupid that the signature can be displayed in space by spinning the camera around in a noobish sort of way, but you can't have all the sigs displayed in a neat table on your ships computer.
Bum Shadow
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2013-05-09 20:15:52 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Bum Shadow wrote:
But i just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings.


Well, probably because Shift-Drag and Alt-Resize were the 2 most commonly used movement options. Now it's intuitive, because I rarely want to move only one probe around.


Right, i understand the shift thing.


Why make the contraction shift+alt now though. why not just... alt.... like it was? why change that?
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#378 - 2013-05-09 20:18:13 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Robus Muvila wrote:
Two step wrote:

CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations.



hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Blink

Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM.....


That is only a partial quote, and I am adding back in the rest of it. It wasn't Mittens, it was an article about the GDC player meet - http://themittani.com/news/trip-report-san-fransiscogdc-eve-player-meet

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#379 - 2013-05-09 20:24:23 UTC
Two step wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Robus Muvila wrote:
Two step wrote:

CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations.



hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Blink

Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM.....


That is only a partial quote, and I am adding back in the rest of it. It wasn't Mittens, it was an article about the GDC player meet - http://themittani.com/news/trip-report-san-fransiscogdc-eve-player-meet

Ok, that makes sense now.
Resilan Bearcat
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2013-05-09 20:25:37 UTC
Good:
I liked the interface for resizing and moving the probes - simpler, more streamlined
I liked the ability to deploy all probes at once ( I can only deploy 7 anyway)

Bad:
Giant orange roadsigns in space
No list of signatures available for the anomalies (could only see them in space, see first bad thing)
Once scanned to 100%, the giant orange roadsign didn't update accordingly
Once the probes were moved, the 100% lock was lost
Giant flourescent roadsigns (needs repeating, it breaks immersion) doesn't feel like space
Cannot see approximate location of signatures on the solar system map

Indifferent:
scanning animation - doesn't do anything for me
mid slots to improve scanning (will compete with exploring mods)