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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Octoven
Stellar Production
#241 - 2013-05-09 12:16:26 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?

DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.



Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.

No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher


Actually no...Deep Space probes are a remnant of an old probing system. In the old system you started with a multispectral probe that only gave you a list of the types of sites present in the system. It didn't pinpoint ant, and wouldnt give you numbers, but it would tell you what types were present with 100% certainty.

Under the current system, deep space probes are basically combat probes with high range. All probes are 100% detection of every signature within range, so DSPs were tasked over to be used for one of two jobs.

A). They find a ship outside the normal planetary masses (the huge range means you need fewer probes out to cover the same area) or as an initial scan.

B). If used as an initial scan, it is to get all the scan IDs in a large system at the same time.

However, Option A was omitted when CCP put a brake on being able to warp to bookmarks of extreme range out of the system. As for option B, DSPs are still used for this purpose. One thing to keep in mind though is that the way they are used NOW with the DSP guide and finding out what types of sites is not part of the probe design...that was just accidental discovery like webbing freighters.

Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
Shaya Phnx
Doomheim
#242 - 2013-05-09 12:19:40 UTC
I hope you accept my apologice if this question has been answered before, i didn't read every post here.

How do I show the Anomalies on Sisi in space. currently there are just a few seconds after initilizing the system, when I can see them inspace. If I use my onboard scanner or even probes, they are not shown in space, just in the scanner overview.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#243 - 2013-05-09 12:21:02 UTC
Wow, I just realized that they also changed sig sizes or probe strength. I can scan to 25% what used to be size-10s with the default formation and 8 AU scan range, using a mediocre-skilled alt and none of the new scanning mods. On TQ I'd have to go down to 2 AU probe range to do that. This should speed up sweeping systems a lot. I think I like it Cool

.
Traiori
Going Critical
#244 - 2013-05-09 12:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Traiori
Please see this entire thread for my thoughts on the issue: you are removing a lot of the higher-end tactics used in scanning, you are removing a lot of the versatiltiy that more skilled pilots had, you are removing our skillpoints without reimbursing them (!?), you are removing a lot of the speed-increasing techniques that we used to actually bring hisec exploration anywhere near other hisec activities in income.

You are removing a lot of the information that we used to use on a regular basis, and that is necessary for some of the more complex things that we do as players in this game (you've seen FC's and pvp'ers in this thread expressing their concerns, listen to them).

Frankly, I also no longer see the point in having my scanalts subbed. I'm sure that other people feel the same. Why bother having perfect scanning skills, or any particularly good scanning technique? We can just press two buttons and BAZINGA!

I'm also extremely glad that I'm nowhere near wormholes at the minute with these changes.

You say that you like emergent gameplay, yet when we make emergent gameplay with probes, you immediately remove a lot of the features that we were using. As others have concluded, I can only presume that you don't actually have anyone involved in any aspect of actual scanning, only in the lowest end of pve scanning. This isn't making scanning more accessible. It's removing entire areas of gameplay from EVE.

Exploration isn't dead, I'm not that ridiculous to believe that these changes will murder it - though I do think that you'll see anumber of hisec explorers leave the game as their income drops below the already low rates it's at currently - but this is a huge blow to it as a career path.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#245 - 2013-05-09 12:22:28 UTC
Shaya Phnx wrote:
I hope you accept my apologice if this question has been answered before, i didn't read every post here.

How do I show the Anomalies on Sisi in space. currently there are just a few seconds after initilizing the system, when I can see them inspace. If I use my onboard scanner or even probes, they are not shown in space, just in the scanner overview.


Sensor overlay on?

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#246 - 2013-05-09 12:23:15 UTC
Octoven wrote:

Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.



You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#247 - 2013-05-09 12:32:59 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Wow, I just realized that they also changed sig sizes or probe strength. I can scan to 25% what used to be size-10s with the default formation and 8 AU scan range, using a mediocre-skilled alt and none of the new scanning mods. On TQ I'd have to go down to 2 AU probe range to do that. This should speed up sweeping systems a lot. I think I like it Cool


I just got a w-space data site (=radar) to >25% by going directly from 8 AU to 2 AU and not even touching the keyboard, just dragging the mouse. Scanning is going to be really easy and fast.

.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#248 - 2013-05-09 12:33:01 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?

DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.



Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.

No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher


Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train.
I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic.

Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#249 - 2013-05-09 12:33:09 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.



You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.


If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#250 - 2013-05-09 12:34:58 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?

DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.



Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.

No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher


Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train.
I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic.

Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.



Funny how older players tend to be the ones most resistant to change.
David Campbell
Primas Custos
#251 - 2013-05-09 12:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: David Campbell
Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered.
I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down.

EDIT :

Also, I got disconnected and :
a/ The probes didn't come back to me, but stayed in space.
b/ I was able to reconnect to lost probes, but only 5 of them since I have astrometrics to level 2.

So i have to recall them to cargo hold, reconnect with the other 2, recall those 2 and launch the total of 7 probes to be able to scan again. That's a bit of pain, and you might wanna look at it before June 4th.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#252 - 2013-05-09 12:36:27 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?

DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.



Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.

No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher


Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train.
I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic.

Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.


CCP rule N°1: if it ain't broken, be sure the next update will break it
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#253 - 2013-05-09 12:38:09 UTC
David Campbell wrote:
Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered.
I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down.

How do you do that? I don't think this is the case.

.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#254 - 2013-05-09 12:40:23 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.



You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.


If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well.

learn to probe.

dsp are especially usefull in advanced scanning to filter point blank the sigs, now CCP is just making it easier for anyone, and in the meantime, screw many gamaplays with this (wtf there are no more RANGE in scan tab?)

this probing thingy is just a big rollback, and i'm afraid of what they will do to pos, i forsee a nightmare of bugs around those, i wish i'm wrong, but unfortunately, i'm a player since too long to even hope see it not being screwed up
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#255 - 2013-05-09 12:41:05 UTC
1. the spread formation is terrible. it leaves holes. the pinpoint formation is better used for a general overview
2. why did the scanbuttons move to the middle of the window? i cant see a reason why, and it just confuses long time scanners. it might have an intricate reason though that id really like to now
3. when resizing probes the scanner overview doesnt show you the size youre adjusting too. this is massively annoying. by knowing how close you are to scanning something down you can by looking at probe size guess what you are scanning down.
4. Why are my probes instantly picked up if i jump? id like to keep them out please? and why can we reconnect to probes (the button is there) if you cant loose them
5. where is the time the probes can stay out? or is it eternally? shame....i was for cutting them by 66%, removing....terrible
6. can i have my deepspace probes back please? theyre awesome as overview probes. if a system is 200 AU its nice to get a quick overview
7. can we get a way to launch a single probe? sometimes thats all you need.......
8. if we can only launch 7 probes at the same time, please make the launchers hold more probes. if you have to reload after every system......it gets old
Feer Truelight
#256 - 2013-05-09 12:41:24 UTC
"Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half."

That's the (2x/3x/4x...) at the skill?

8/7/2006 3:39:36 PM UTC FreeCCP Promotional Game Time 7 Days Paid

6/1/2012 5:48:57 PM UTC PayPal 1 x 1 Month EVE Subscription + Signup €19.95 Paid

CCP took 6 years to convert me to a (still) paying subscriber :)
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#257 - 2013-05-09 12:42:36 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.



You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.


If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well.


You obviously have never scanned with 2 types of probes. It works amazingly well. The fact that I can set them at 8au and 2au and change them all at once to 4au/1au or 2au/0.5au is huge. When you have systems with 40+ sigs this method is fast.
David Campbell
Primas Custos
#258 - 2013-05-09 12:43:20 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
David Campbell wrote:
Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered.
I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down.

How do you do that? I don't think this is the case.


With customs filters, I've just tested it, and the remaining signatures are all of the selected types so far (5 tries).
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-05-09 12:43:34 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
So far the only thing I like is the ability to move the entire formation with one block, but any decent scanner had no trouble holding shift.


Tbh, I kinda like the ability to get an automatic formation, because it was a royal pita to set the same damn setup every time I entered another system - it just gets old once you're used to one way of probing.

That said, the compaints list:

1. Shift+Alt is hilarious (not really) if you have several international keyboards active. What, Alt+F4 was taken? :p I see no reason why this couldn't remain Alt.

2. I'd like 8 probes back please and set up my own formations. No need for preset formations.

3. Can't sort by type/ID/whatever?

4. 100% scans should remain 100% and update Scanning Overview.
4a. I'd prefer if info for sig was retained if docking / jumping to a different system. Currently, bookmarks are used to achieve this.

5. Remove automatic probe recovery. If I was stupid enough to leave the probes behind, I should pay the price.

6. Copy-paste scan results are gone? WTB back, please.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#260 - 2013-05-09 12:46:30 UTC
Reading all the comments and giving it a try myself i find it quite worrysome that Odyssey is already so close around the corner.
It really feels like the new system was designed in a rush by someone who didn't really use any of the advanced probing techniques. It needs a LOT of work and finetuning. Being in game development myself i know this is impossible in such short time. These updates should have been put on sisi 3-4 months in advance and then properly fleshed out with the help of community feedback.
Casual Explorers will love the changes but all the rest gets alienated because a) player skill is taken out of the equation b) its dumbed down to a point that some tasks actualy become more of a chore or downright impossible compared to before.

The new system has potential. I like the feel of it. The system scanner is nice to quickly see if its worth to probe the system, launching multiple probes is nice, the handling of the probes themself feels nice and streamlined. But we could have all this while still maintaining advanced probing techniques. This new system could make new and old explorers happy alike. But right now it only gathers to casuals. In Eve Online of all games!