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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
#201 - 2013-05-09 08:14:22 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Liltha wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. Sad

The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning.


Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills.

Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players.

Unless I read the original post wrong that is.


Yes, I can see how that would be bad.

PRE Odyssey


  • Astrometrics - Probe count
    • Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time.
    Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation
    Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength


Odyssey

Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength
Acquistion - (-5%) scan time
Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation
Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength

Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit.

However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose.


Ah yeah forgot about jump portals. However it being a prerequisite for the other skills could be changed so thats neither here nor there. Just feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing is all. Feels like they are taking away pretty much everything good about having astrometrics to 5 and replacing it with a salve that they pulled from my other skills.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#202 - 2013-05-09 08:21:45 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Liltha wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. Sad

The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning.


Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills.

Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players.

Unless I read the original post wrong that is.


Yes, I can see how that would be bad.

PRE Odyssey


  • Astrometrics - Probe count
    • Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time.
    Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation
    Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength


Odyssey

Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength
Acquistion - (-5%) scan time
Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation
Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength

Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit.

However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose.

2 5% skills are greater than one 10%. It's a gain, not a break even. Especially so if you had scanning skills at 5/4/4/4.

Edit: Also T2 probe launchers require Astro V

Edit 2: Another thought, since all the probes within range of a target contribute to the result now and astrometrics increased the number of probes one could use it indirectly had the same effect prior, though one could simply choose not to take advantage of it.


Yes, indeed you are right. I have 5/3/3/3 so it will deffinately help me. However, to those who have 5/5/5/5 it is still breaking even. I was just pointing out that the skill has a purpose.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#203 - 2013-05-09 08:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Desert Ice78
Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#204 - 2013-05-09 08:33:32 UTC
One more remark thing;

I feel there's a disconnect between the Sensor Overlay and actual probing. The overlay looks really nice, but nothing of what you see there translates into the system window you use for probing. It's almost like the probing in the system scanner will have to be replaced by something else. But clearly, with the changes you're making there, that doesn't seem to be the plan.

As others said, you kinda can pinpoint down Unidentified Sites by warping around? Maybe you should not position those in space, but show for the planet that there are unidentified sites out there. Then you can easily 'copy' that information into the system window. Mark the planet red or something like that.

I have to join the comments of others that the Sensor Overlay looks nice. But it takes quite a bit of panning around to see what's out there. I have a FOV of about 66 degrees. Heck, in combat sites I sometimes can't even find the 'center' :).

In the scan results, the animated progress bars (growing to 'full' percentage) looks fancy, but I feel it distracts from the goal. Especially when there are a lot of results and you have to scroll around (which makes 'newly' shown entries have that animation).
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#205 - 2013-05-09 08:38:12 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked?

I had no troubles.

Did you use the spread or the pinpoint formation? The first is the initial default when you click on the probe launcher. If you launch the pinpoint formation from the Scanner window, it will use that the next time (unless you launch the spread formation again).
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#206 - 2013-05-09 08:40:01 UTC
I commented on the radial menu before.

I finally figured you're supposed to use it by clicking the Sensor button, holding the mouse button and then dragging to the quadrant you want to activate. I'm not sure that even then the mouse pointer should reset. But it certainly should not when you click-click instead of press-drag-release.
Zombie132
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#207 - 2013-05-09 08:41:54 UTC
I think it's awesome the "busy work" has been taken out of scanning.

These things are great (keep all these things!):

- Launching all the probes at once
- Easily resizing all probes all at once
- Launching into certain formations
- Seeing all signatures on the overlay
- Recovering all the probes quickly

These are things I think can be improved:

- In certain profession sites eve tends to chug/shudder, not sure if that's the loading, the lag, or what
- The scanner keeps sweeping if i'm in space ... over and over... after the first two sweeps, can we just see the signatures and not the sweeps?
Kronossan
Bellum Esca
#208 - 2013-05-09 08:49:50 UTC
You're already this far into the development of the feature and will probably not invest the time required to overhaul your work so far to be more in line of what the majority of players seem to want. You normally only see the more vocal part of the community complain if they dislike something. This time around we've seen a lot of constructive feedback about this feature from the people who went to or saw the stream of fanfest.

I have a question for you regarding this new probing system: Wouldn't exploration just become a mindless and boring grind (like missions or mining) by doing all the work -for- the players, when you take away all incentive to read up about the feature to learn as much about it as the player can and to improve their actual skill?

Let me elaborate:
- You keep mentioning constantly that probing something down takes skill. I disagree as it is just a matter of placing the center probe on the sig, dragging the surrounding probes in closer and reducing their scan sphere (rinse and repeat until you get the signature). Granted, in lowsec and nulsec you have other factors but I am ignoring those because this is about exploration and not pvp or pvp avoidance.
- The only way a player can get an edge over competitors is to know as much as possible about the sites as there is (probe formations, site names, which modules to use, etc.) but you're handing all this information on a silver platter now (site name changes to what you can expect, probe formations are done for players by the system)
- Some of the probing skills are being nerfed, because I have these skills trained to a high level already, I'll have even more useless skillpoints on my character and the price of clones is high enough already to keep me from getting into PVP more

User scenario in Odyssey:
-> Launch probes into optimal pattern with single click
-> Move probes around a bit, hit scan button, resize scan area
-> Repeat above step as often as required to scan down a site
-> Site type reads 'Combat site', I'll think "cba with a combat site right now"
-> Scan down new site, warp there, do my thing
-> Next system

Nice sense of wonder and mystery indeed.
Egg McMuff
#209 - 2013-05-09 08:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Egg McMuff
CCP i think i need to puke after trying this scanning system, its terrible.
Most of the guys that have posted have got it spot on please do not give us this.

I am sure you developers have had your meeting around the table with you cream buns etc and discussed and debated this new scanning system??? Who to hell had the final word on this piece of work??

Looking at the way it currently is I would say that none of you actually have had much experience scanning in eve I really, really cant believe this has been rubber stamped for tranquility.

As for the love tunnel when gate jumping I want to know how to disable it


Odyssey should be called oddity..
Octoven
Stellar Production
#210 - 2013-05-09 08:59:55 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked?


I had the exact opposite effect, normally it takes me anywhere from 1-2 minutes to lock a sig down. Today I was locking them down really fast. Found virtually any site in under 3 scans or 30 seconds.
JohnnyRingo
Regiment Of Naga Association
OnlyFleets.
#211 - 2013-05-09 08:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: JohnnyRingo
After testing the new changes out on singularity i am very disappointed with the new probing interface.
The probes themselves work just fine, very handy removing all the tedious positioning etc, however the interface is very lacking, it has much less functionality than the previous one.
No sorting of signatures, it automatically sorts after strength which i do not like, i want to be able to sort them however i want, when there are multiple people probing it's necessary to sort by signature names.
Also i can no longer copy the details out of the game, it is very handy being able to copy all the signature names and pasting the data into excel or equivalent csv format for quick sharing out of the game (Google Docs for example).

Those are my main complaints, the lack of being able to copy, and sort.

When switching back and forth between DScan and System Scan the animations repeat, annoying.
Also the window that pops up when hovering over sigs in space is too big.

IMO just stick with the old interface but keep the new formations, after all these years i prefer an excel datadump in my face rather than those clunky red/gray bars.
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2013-05-09 09:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterAl tt1
Initial post has 10 likes so far. CCP, do you see it? Do you understand why?

Don't make this game a complete "WoW" for dummies!

All this looks like "a new inventory". CCP wants to do smth, does it as it sees fit, without asking people, then gets a sh.tstorm but still puts it all in game for us to suffer.
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2013-05-09 09:23:37 UTC
There are holes in the system scanning probe formation.

It should look something like this:
http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/130509/formation2_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

Instead of this:
http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/130509/formation1_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

(ignore my horrible paint skills Bear)
Octoven
Stellar Production
#214 - 2013-05-09 10:09:52 UTC
Wow, so many complaints over making a scanning system look like an actual GAME and not like a spreadsheet. The issue here is that most eve players are in the IT professions and working with SQL and such they are often times more acclimated to reading raw data and are comfortable with that. HOWEVER, the UI deff. needed some shaking up. Im sure in time they can make minor adjustments, but in all honesty you arent getting the old scanning system back so get out of your comfort zone and adapt like most gamers.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#215 - 2013-05-09 10:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
C DeLeon wrote:

Instead of this:
http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/130509/formation1_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg


But but.. It's a CCP logo ! You can't ask them to remove it !


I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?

BEFORE :
1- Push Alt
2- Grab arrow
3- Move mouse

NOW ON SISI :
1- Push Maj
2- Grab arrow
3- Release Maj
4- Push Alt
5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)

No, really, not good.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Sasha Angelis
Tax Evasion Corp 5347
#216 - 2013-05-09 10:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Angelis
Octoven wrote:
Wow, so many complaints over making a scanning system look like an actual GAME and not like a spreadsheet. The issue here is that most eve players are in the IT professions and working with SQL and such they are often times more acclimated to reading raw data and are comfortable with that. HOWEVER, the UI deff. needed some shaking up. Im sure in time they can make minor adjustments, but in all honesty you arent getting the old scanning system back so get out of your comfort zone and adapt like most gamers.


I'm pretty sure no one is opposed to make the scanning UI more appealing. The players are more opposed to the new system cause it offers less information and less options for customization for a bit more colors and a fancy new scanning animation (which is a bad trade in my opinion).

I'd really love to see CCP putting some serious work in this new interface before June 4th or if thats not possible in time take the new interface out of Odyssey 1.0 and deliver it with 1.1.
Seth Asthereun
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#217 - 2013-05-09 10:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Seth Asthereun
Sorry in advance for my english.

After a few hours probbing i can say: i really DO NOT LIKE the new probbing system.
EVE is a game where you should learn every day every aspect of it. Exploring was one.

Now is just dumb, it's a lot easier and with a lack of depth that previously had.
You removed many advanced tricks:
-leaving probes out in system when jumping in another one.
-scan 2 locations at the same time
-recognise the type of sig by their scan st (really the bar thing is a lot worse than the percentage).
-using dsp to scan even the larges systems and being able to scan with the probe outside directionl scanners range.
-making implant useless with the new modules, and maybe making too easy scan a ship with the probe outside his directional.

I do not usually use 8 probes but i can see the point of those complaining of not being able to use them.

I not really know why you are trying to flatten all the game, eve is not supposed to be easy and it shouldn't be, you could have just made the interface simplier while keeping the actual probbing method.
Absurdly for explorers this is going to be one of the worst expansions because you are not fixing anything that needed to be fixed and just introduce some useless things.

The hacking minigame is nice in a game like mass effect where they have to increase the lenght. But in eve you do not aim and shoot you just press f1, you do not manually orbit (yeah sometimes yes) or warp to a location you press a key and i do not know why hacking shouldn't be the same way.

What i think exploration needs atm:
-The ability to directly launch a chosen number of probes( two options: launch probe. and launch probes->2/3/4/5/6/7/8
-The pre-set probes formations are cool, and would be even better if you can save your own formation for each number of probes out
-Introduce the ability to centre the screen on the signature by clicking it on the menu
-Fix the escalations, make them more entertaining and useful, they are longer and harder then rated complex and they should have a better reward. And please make them spawn in the same region.
-The idea of introduce new WHs with no moons was pretty cool

The system scanner is ok, even if also the actual one is ok

I'm quite hopeless about how ccp will handle those feedback and after all the work they have done to do it i don't think they will go back. And that's sad. THey will answer for a few days and then leave it alone as they did with the ship rebalance. I don't think any real explorer will be happy with the new expansion
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#218 - 2013-05-09 10:53:51 UTC
For people complaining about the changes in percentage bonuses going from a single 10% bonus, to 2 5% bonuses:

You know that gives you a higher bonus, right?

They multiply together.

100 * 1.1 = 110
100 *1.05*1.05 = 110.25

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Anariasis
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#219 - 2013-05-09 11:05:47 UTC
Just realized while being on the test server, the new scanning modules (Scan Rangefinding Array etc.) all need their respective skill trained to Level 1. That's fine for the T1 ones, but for the T2? Why would anyone use the T1 then? Why not reward players that have invested more skill points?
The T1 and T2 have same fitting requirements as well.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2013-05-09 11:08:45 UTC
Altrue wrote:

I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?

BEFORE :
1- Push Alt
2- Grab arrow
3- Move mouse

NOW ON SISI :
1- Push Maj
2- Grab arrow
3- Release Maj
4- Push Alt
5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)

No, really, not good.


You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you?

Click launch probes
Move the single visible probe onto sig
Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center
Click Scan

Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand.