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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Author
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#381 - 2013-04-28 14:55:51 UTC
♪ Shake it up! Ooh ooh! Shake it up. ♫

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#382 - 2013-04-28 15:01:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Yeah, because having a 24/7 icemining division in highsec has always been mittens favorite wet dreamRoll

LOL. Seriously... I don't get some of these complaints. Do people seriously believe that GSF is going to devote a significant number of pilots to ice mining in highsec? How deluded could you possibly get?



Who's have thought they'd play faction warfare either?

The fact is that these changes are going to cause massive, and unpredictable, changes in game play and in the market, mostly at the expense of players in high sec. One realistic outcome will be a massive spike in the price of T2, due to the rise in the cost of POS fuel. The other will be that High Sec POS will come to be dominated by large alliances in much the way null sec POS are dominated by large alliances, but it will have less to do with military might than it will to do with manpower and financial wherewithal.

Small players who previously squeaked by with a marginal profit will be driven under or subhumed into larger alliances not due to any player actions, but due to the whims of CCP.

Thus, once more, we see the sandbox is a lie.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2013-04-28 15:39:11 UTC
As a nullsec player I don't give a **** about highsec pos, especially with these changes, because they finally make industry viable. The problems with pos and Corp roles remain, but for the first time, everything needed to make a nullsec industrial empire happen is there

Ressources (ice, PI products, moon minerals, ore, research facilities, and production facilities) are in place, the only thing missing are the people to use these, but look at the corporations currently renting space from the big guys, many of them list "industry" in their description, however, they currently have nothing to offer to those who want to build stuff, and very little for those who want to mine.

That will change over night.
Cathrianne
Industrix Manufacturing and Extraction
#384 - 2013-04-28 15:48:13 UTC
Making mining sites so they have to be scanned down, and not static, I like that. Making it so that they are found with the on board scanner; hmmmm... while in High, Low, and Null sec this makes little difference as to how quickly a miner can be found. It does however appear to be able too foil the bot miners. In Wild space, this will spell certain doom for miners. It is already difficult to mine in Wild space. With no static belts, and only 'random' spawn of grav sites. The only chance miners have in wildspace is the off chance they catch probes or unknown ships on the D scanner. With targeting being what it is in EVE even having a combat fleet on standby in the grav site with the miners will not stop them from meeting death should someone with less than noble intentions suddenly show their face. It's not like you can sit someone on the gates to the system and know when people come in. Sure you can sit scouts on the known worm holes. But the random incoming holes, the only defense against those is the D scanner. Making mining now more like anomaly sites takes away that slim chance that miners currently have in wildspace.

With the changes to the mining ships and need for support craft to be 'on site' more, mining has taken on a new dynamic. I don't see increasing the mineral count in the low/null sec rocks making it more appealing to mine in dangerous space. Miners will always be the victims of the ' look at my awesomeness, I can gank defenseless miners' crowd. Because of that single fact, most players will not venture in the darkness. Those that do, do so either out of necessity or because they are the adventurous sort. Getting a mining operation from one place to another is a bit of a challenge to begin with. Moving one around in dangerous space is the thing nightmares can be made of, except in areas already controlled by your group and often only done deep in 'home' territory.

All in all this is a move in the right direction. it will add a small immersive component to mining. As well as a feeling of 'ownership' to the pilots that find the mining site. It will solve some problems, but will add a degree of difficulty for another group of players. With the current state of affairs in null sec, and constant blockading of low sec pipe gates, I don't see people rushing to the far parts of space to go mining. Those already in place will take the changes with little more than a shrug and small smile.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#385 - 2013-04-28 16:06:07 UTC
islador wrote:
Randomly adding high value materials to moons. I like that you're being random about it, but was there really no other way? Those of us that keep moon databases now have to rescan our entire database. That is a HUGE amount of work and isk. Could the production not be balanced further somehow?



Frankly, I was hoping for depletion of minerals from moons and having to scan other nearby systems to find the ones you want again. Nothing as drastic as completely mining it out in a day or so. Maybe a month time frame, but still depletion.

Passive income is bad! And nothing is more passive that moon minerals, ok maybe datacores were.

Short of that, I was hoping to see moon mining take on the characteristics of PI. Even though I have nothing but contempt for PI.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Crexa
Ion Industrials
#386 - 2013-04-28 16:12:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dilbert HighSeed wrote:
LOL..just love reading the null bears "wah, wah...my null sec income might be affected". High sec just took another body slam, and you clowns laugh when high sec gets crushed. Now we have one ship class potentially affected by an NPC change, and people lose their minds.

Hypocrites all of you.

Ice mining getting moved to anomalies is a "body slam"?
Seriously?
Check your privilege.


Check your math!

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Crexa
Ion Industrials
#387 - 2013-04-28 16:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
Xessej wrote:
Why leave the ice anoms in the systems that have ice now? Miners have chased the better grav sites around so why not ice? Also it would really put the hurt on the botters.


Yeah, because hating on the botters makes it a good idea. What?

I am ok with the idea of anomolies, (not the 20% under supply need amount). I would be ok with all belts going to anomolies. Even needing to scan them down.

But empire needs something that null has, wh needs something that high has and null needs something that wh has. And all the reciprocals and re-combinations of that.

These proposed changes do nothing to insure that remains and in fact do damage to that relationship!

PS. I forgot to add and Low continues to get screwed, so nothing new there.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Crexa
Ion Industrials
#388 - 2013-04-28 16:37:18 UTC
Daedalus II wrote:
So question:

If Gneiss and Spodumain has such a low value, how will increasing the amount of minerals they produce help? The end result as I see it is those minerals getting even lower in price, eventually resulting in Gneiss and Spodumain going back to their original low value. The reason for those minerals to be so low in value must after all be due to oversupply, right? Producing even more of those minerals then, to me, doesn't sound like a good solution.

Wouldn't it be better to maybe remove half of the Gneiss and Spodumain asteroids from each belt? That way they neither become an anchor nor do they result in oversupply of those minerals, making them increase in value.


Here is a thought! How about we just remove these two types or asteroids from the game all together. They are worthless now, and the fix is a band-aid. As you are absolutely right.

Or, we could have these two roids produce something entirely "new" or at least different. Maybe you gas mine them for drug gases. Its not unreasonable, as many ores are crushed and if not vaporized, liquified to remove impurities to get the valuable product out.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Crexa
Ion Industrials
#389 - 2013-04-28 16:47:49 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The income from mining Arkonor could have been easily boosted by simply rebalancing spodumain to be in line with ABC in terms of high end minerals, thus increasing the total ISK/hr of mining out the asteroids in these nullsec grav sites.

These changes will not encourage more miners to head out to null sec. These changes are effectively ensuring that the miners already mining in nullsec will provide more resources, reducing the requirement for sourcing those resources from anywhere else such as shuttling them down from hisec, or employing more miners in null.

To encourage more miners in nullsec, CCP should remove mineral compression. This will put pressure on nullsec industrialist to source their materials locally. In addition, make life easier for miners by reworking refineries. With the coming Surface Infrastructure boosts, industry in low/null will be significantly boosted, allowing nullsec to get closer to the holy grail of being able to supply all their ammo requirements "locally" (and more to the point, being required to do so).

There needs to be pain involved in sourcing materials for war. Making it easier for nullsec by simply adding super-veldspar into the mix is very much a step in the wrong direction. This reduces any incentives to interact with people outside the alliance. I believe that small, surgical changes are all that is required to significantly change the rules of the game, not these sledge-hammer approaches of adding more tritanium to ABC than exist in Veldspar. This is a mess. An unmitigated disaster.

I'll just sit back and try to calm down for a while, before presenting my main question to the round table tomorrow which will be: what proportion of nocxium in EVE was refined from Pyroxeres over the last few months? If CCP cannot answer that question, I will take it as evidence that they didn't pay much attention to the entirety of the material economy, and spent entirely too much time listening to the whinging of null sec "industrialists" whose only purpose in life is to contribute to the proliferation of supercapital ships in Supercapitals Online.

PS: yes, I mad.


I can only like your post one time, so I will do the next best thing, basically repost it!

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Belldrana
WarpCorp
#390 - 2013-04-28 16:55:11 UTC
Would a better idea what with the over abundance of resources in null and low sec, to remove all ice from low and null sec and only have it in empire, reason why the 4 major empires hold the space they do?

Could even need to have 8 or 9 standings with the empire to gain access to the ice belts/annomollies
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#391 - 2013-04-28 16:57:19 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
and seriously where's the high-sec cheese and/or entertainment for someone who has 45 minutes a night in high-sec?

Have you played SWTOR yet? Big smile

I'm not saying its a better game than Eve. What I am saying is it is a far far better game than Eve for someone who has 45 minutes a night to play.



That my dear. Is not only blasphemy, its impossible! Bear

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Crexa
Ion Industrials
#392 - 2013-04-28 17:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

Right now, mining in WHs is only barely safe by virtue of your opponents needing to get probes out to find you, and an experienced prober can still find you with the probes only being visible on dscan for less than 30 seconds. But that still gives the victim--I mean, miner--a small chance to spot the probes and GTFO before it's too late.

With grav sites being anoms, you have only a few seconds' window to spot the attacker (if their incoming wh is within dscan range, the short period between wh cloak and true cloak), or no window at all. There is no reasonable room for pilots to "practice vigilance" outside of gimping your yield by replacing one of your strip miners with a scan probe launcher. A 50% yield loss makes it a waste of time.

The rest of the changes look good, but mining in WHs will become significantly more dangerous in Odyssey if ore sites become anomalies.

So, mining in WH becomes almost as dangerous as mining in NO high-sec? Don't see the problem... :)


IT becomes a whole hell'ava lot MORE dangerous. As there is no warning, no chance of escape and NO FRIGGIN LOCAL! The roids in WH better spit out billions in pure isk, to make it worth while with these changes. I **** you not!

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#393 - 2013-04-28 17:19:48 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Please do explain how the mining changes hinder new alliances in 0.0

Because it's a kneejerk Fox News Talking Point to throw in whenever CCP fixes something unbalanced the poster previously benefitted from.


Someone should write a law about that Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dave Stark
#394 - 2013-04-28 19:23:44 UTC
CCP, you have outdone yourselves.

the mining changes are spot on (now just hurry up and rebalance the mining ships so they are actually balanced and i'll love you long time).

these changes are amazing and if you keep this up i might even stray in to the realm of being your biggest fanboy. i've not been playing for as long as the 10 year vets, but i've never been looking forward to an expansion as much as i'm looking forward to odyssey.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2013-04-28 20:05:31 UTC
As far as hi sec hidden belts - right now, those of us who scan down grav sites know that we almost never find virgin belts. Grav sites are scanned down and rapidly depleted, especially the ones with the juicy ores. Kernite sites, not so much.

What the change will do is make competition for hidden belts in hi sec simply insane because they will be so freakin' easy to find and raid. No skills required - for miners or gankers. Scanning skills are now the prerequisite for access to those hidden resources. As of Odyssey, it's a freebie. I am certainly open minded to alternate perspectives on this.

The other part of the change is gankers: situation unchanged. If miners set up their exhumers with a proper tank, then (I find) the gankers leave us totally alone. The ORE ship changes have completely stopped the ganking for us, simply because we are difficult targets to take out. So, if we are NOT getting ganked in warp-to-zero belts, then why would we look like better targets in a scannable belt ? Yah - situation unchanged.

But, and correct me, static ore belts will continue to exists, unlike ice.

The ice thing has me somewhat confused so let me see if I get this right: we must now use scanning probes to find ice except in the systems listed. Then the part I am fuzzy on - the ice anomalies will deplete especially rapidly due to sped up harvestors and limited ice cube volume.

My first thoughts on this were to agree with those who have predicted that organized fleets will suck up all or most of the ice on a schedule. And the casual ice miner will be a thing of the past. No more mining ice while watching a movie of playing Diablo III.

I guess we will find out.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#396 - 2013-04-28 20:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Jenn aSide wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You must not rat for your isk.

I do, and I hate every minute of it.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Forsaken hubs are the only reasons right now to not completely abbandon null sec for empire incursions and high sec 4/10 farming. The things you have to do to kill ANY frigs in a battleship in an anom means you can do other things , and you can do them at all in an Attack BC except for the Talos which sucks outside of Serp/Angel space.

But you missed the point. Sanctums will have LESS frigates and elite cruisers and MORE battlecruisers, so LESS of the stuff that's disproportionally tough to kill compared to their bounties. Not only that but sanctums will still lead to The Maze (or whatever the equivalent is for non-Guristas stuff) which is much better than FSP.


no I dind't "miss" it, I mentioned it, it doesn't matter. A SINGLE frig in an anom makes a large gun only ship obsolete unless you are at range and can pop it as it approaches.

You dislike doing anoms and so probably don't understand what's happening. I like anoms (because I hated belt ratting) and have created litterly dozens of 1 and 2 ship doctrines to tackle them. This will end up a very serious nerf across multple ships, in case like the Naga it might prove fatal, and the naga is a great ship for poor player to jump in and make some isk.

Not the end of the world, but it is going the wrong way (ccp should be helping grunt players and making null income bottom up rather than top down). And yea, even if they remove all but one frig from sanctums. .

i swaer it's like Blood Raider Naval Shipyard all over again.....

Edit: and 10/10s might be better than FSP because you go to one place, but you can't drop a dread on a maze and be done in 5 minutes likeyou can fsp 3.



I don't mean to troll you here, but if you have "ship doctrines" that are nuked by the addition of a frigate, they were not very good doctrines to begin with.
It's understandable that people would come up with fittings that are super-specialized for maximizing ISK/hour, but this bean-counting yuppie-istic ISK snatching mentality is what's relegating much of the challenge and immersion of the game into calculator wars and fitting fu. Where it up to me, all sites would be random with spawns being based on what warps in (like in wormholes).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#397 - 2013-04-28 20:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Temba Ronin wrote:
One of the shocking realities of Null Sec was how important tritanium became the further from highsec you found yourself.


But there was never a shortage of Veldspar and Scordite in null-sec when I was there.

The problem with tribbles, er tritanium is no one wanted to mine Veldspar for the hassles of null-sec.

So now they're just basically giving us FREE trit if we'll mine almost ANYTHING, including the rare and already valuable stuff.

It's a give-away to null-sec (and I'll happy to have it when I get back to being active), but as I predicted earlier, it isn't going to get any significant number of people out of high-sec and into null-sec.

It's just going to make it so that null-sec dwellers have to travel to high-sec less. Less traffic equals less opportunity for conflict/fun.Sad

But once I'm back to being active, I'll probably like the added autonomy. Hell, a lot of my low and null-sec losses on killboards (those helios losses, especially) are from scouting one system ahead for my hauling alt. Less hauling means losing less ships for me, and less killing ships for gate campers.

Two words will describe Odyssey's resource shake-up the most: LESS HAULING.

If you're a null-sec industrialist that's groovy. I've tried my hand at it at times, and these changes will cause me to try it again.

Everyone else (null and low sec PvP-centric players, high-sec freighter gankers, freighter services like redfrog, high-sec industrialists and (to a lesser extent) people who make isk through anything but null-sec industrialism), however, just got crapped on.

I consider myself in the null PvP-centric group when I have real world leisure. But it is mildly interesting that they want to fix a career I have often given up on. And before you suggest that sentence is an admission that it needed fixing, I'll point you to all those supercaps that got built by industrialists that didn't give up on it. Every null-sec outpost, POS and every supercap is proof that industry can be done. Soon it will be done with less hauling. All hail the coming autonomous null-sec! Lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#398 - 2013-04-28 21:04:20 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
One of the shocking realities of Null Sec was how important tritanium became the further from highsec you found yourself.


But there was never a shortage of Veldspar and Scordite in null-sec when I was there.

The problem with tribbles, er tritanium is no one wanted to mine Veldspar for the hassles of null-sec.

So now they're just basically giving us FREE trit if we'll mine almost ANYTHING, including the rare and already valuable stuff.

It's a give-away to null-sec (and I'll happy to have it when I get back to being active), but as I predicted earlier, it isn't going to get any significant number of people out of high-sec and into null-sec.

It's just going to make it so that null-sec dwellers have to travel to high-sec less. Less traffic equals less opportunity for conflict/fun.Sad

But once I'm back to being active, I'll probably like the added autonomy. Hell, a lot of my low and null-sec losses on killboards (those helios losses, especially) are from scouting one system ahead for my hauling alt. Less hauling means losing less ships for me, and less killing ships for gate campers.

Two words will describe Odyssey's resource shake-up the most: LESS HAULING.

If you're a null-sec industrialist that's groovy. I've tried my hand at it at times, and these changes will cause me to try it again.

Everyone else (null and low sec PvP-centric players, high-sec freighter gankers, high-sec industrialists and people who make isk through anything but null-sec industrialism), however, just got crapped on.

I consider myself in the null PvP-centric group when I have real world leisure. But it is mildly interesting that they want to fix a career I have often given up on. And before you suggest that sentence is an admission that it needed fixing, I'll point you to all those supercaps that got built by industrialists that didn't give up on it. Every null-sec outpost, POS and every supercap is proof that industry can be done. Soon it will be done with less hauling. All hail the coming autonomous null-sec! Lol


Those supercaps got built by hauling in compressed minerals from hi-sec. The only reason they were built in 0.0 is that's the only place it's allowed to build them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#399 - 2013-04-28 21:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Malcanis wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
One of the shocking realities of Null Sec was how important tritanium became the further from highsec you found yourself.


But there was never a shortage of Veldspar and Scordite in null-sec when I was there.

The problem with tribbles, er tritanium is no one wanted to mine Veldspar for the hassles of null-sec.

So now they're just basically giving us FREE trit if we'll mine almost ANYTHING, including the rare and already valuable stuff.

It's a give-away to null-sec (and I'll happy to have it when I get back to being active), but as I predicted earlier, it isn't going to get any significant number of people out of high-sec and into null-sec.

It's just going to make it so that null-sec dwellers have to travel to high-sec less. Less traffic equals less opportunity for conflict/fun.Sad

But once I'm back to being active, I'll probably like the added autonomy. Hell, a lot of my low and null-sec losses on killboards (those helios losses, especially) are from scouting one system ahead for my hauling alt. Less hauling means losing less ships for me, and less killing ships for gate campers.

Two words will describe Odyssey's resource shake-up the most: LESS HAULING.

If you're a null-sec industrialist that's groovy. I've tried my hand at it at times, and these changes will cause me to try it again.

Everyone else (null and low sec PvP-centric players, high-sec freighter gankers, high-sec industrialists and people who make isk through anything but null-sec industrialism), however, just got crapped on.

I consider myself in the null PvP-centric group when I have real world leisure. But it is mildly interesting that they want to fix a career I have often given up on. And before you suggest that sentence is an admission that it needed fixing, I'll point you to all those supercaps that got built by industrialists that didn't give up on it. Every null-sec outpost, POS and every supercap is proof that industry can be done. Soon it will be done with less hauling. All hail the coming autonomous null-sec! Lol


Those supercaps got built by hauling in compressed minerals from hi-sec. The only reason they were built in 0.0 is that's the only place it's allowed to build them.


I am aware of that, but as my first sentence points out, null-sec has NO shortage of Veldspar and Scordite. People just (rightly, IMO) found mining it to be not worth the risk or not worth the non-afk attention that had to be paid.

This is a complete giveaway to null-sec TO MAKE IT SAFER to accumulate tritanium because we are now practically GUARANTEEING that you can get trit WHILE you mine the good stuff and thus earn enough to easily replace your ships. Before Odyssey, if we wanted trit without hauling, we had our ass hanging out in space waiting to be bitten for a lot longer before earning the replacement value of our ships. I just worry that having elected my fellow null-sec players to the CSM means that I'm going to come back to an "I win" button when I become active again.

Someone please explain to me how less hauling is good for the game, long-term.

I ask this because the two main ways I lose ships is scouting for hauling alts, and flying Scorpions (aka Primary) in CTAs. If I simply move to DPS ships (instead of Scorpions), and do far shorter hauls, my 98.8% KB isk efficiency will crawl towards complete perfection. I'd only lose my DPS ship when my side is completely outnumbered *and* cannot escape (which has been kind of rare in my career).
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#400 - 2013-04-28 21:23:01 UTC
Oh dear lord, here we go again!

Playing eve for SO long... Hi sec players WIL NOT MOVE to low/0.0 sec... Jeez, u would imagine ccp would get that into their thick skulls after almost 10 years... Roll

Low sec mining is rare to say the least... to much risk involved.. too many pilots needed to fly security, which could be mining or doing fun stuff instead of babysitting barges/exhumers, which still have a chance of getting whacked anyways.

nullsec... well... thats where ccp lives Lol

Then again, if ice is getting rare... it might actually be fun (read profitable) enough to mine.

Good thing also i didn't use up my stockpile of icecubes Big smile