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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#661 - 2013-05-08 07:11:40 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

Well it gets that - the range bonus with torps and CMs is from a velocity bonus. The problem is that even with that a Raven only gets 30km from torps. If Torps were buffed by giving them +50% velocity (putting them back in line with rockets and HAMs) Ravens would have 45km range with Torps (and Typhoons 30km), and such a fit might well be worthwhile.
I think the two main problems as it stands now with the Raven using torpedoes (PvP) are range (which you pointed out) and the ability to apply damage. The Golem gets "7.5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level" and it is still not consider all that effective at applying damage.

Tech 2s have Explosion Radius of 650 m... without a lot of help the Raven won't even be able to apply full damage to a stationary Battleship.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#662 - 2013-05-08 07:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
Hagika wrote:
Zetak wrote:
Quote:
5% increased rate of fire for all Cruise Missile Launchers
200 added power grid need for all Cruise Missile launchers

4700m/sec base missile velocity for all Cruise Missiles (up from 3750m/sec)
14 second base flight time for all Cruise Missiles (down from 20 seconds)
25% increase in base damage for all Cruise Missiles
10% increase in explosion radius for all Cruise Missiles


update in the cruise section.

Maybe it is a sign of great things to come? (our proposals passed?)



I dont see any different changes. Looks to be the same from when it was posted originally




it was 25% rof on monday when I looked. I don't know it was a typo or not, but that was what I saw, and I know that for sure.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#663 - 2013-05-08 07:20:02 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

Well it gets that - the range bonus with torps and CMs is from a velocity bonus. The problem is that even with that a Raven only gets 30km from torps. If Torps were buffed by giving them +50% velocity (putting them back in line with rockets and HAMs) Ravens would have 45km range with Torps (and Typhoons 30km), and such a fit might well be worthwhile.
I think the two main problems as it stands now with the Raven using torpedoes (PvP) are range (which you pointed out) and the ability to apply damage. The Golem gets "7.5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level" and it is still not consider all that effective at applying damage.

Tech 2s have Explosion Radius of 650 m... without a lot of help the Raven won't even be able to apply full damage to a stationary Battleship.



When will people get it through their head that the Raven is a CRUISE MISSILE BOAT!!!

FUARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#664 - 2013-05-08 07:21:46 UTC
Quote:
When will people get it through their head that the Raven is a CRUISE MISSILE BOAT!!!

FUARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Chill dude! Your head will explode! Big smile
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#665 - 2013-05-08 07:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

When will people get it through their head that the Raven is a CRUISE MISSILE BOAT!!!

FUARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lol Actually if you looked... it has bonus for torpedos too.

In fact, if you look closely, the bonus given to the Raven are more effective for Torpedos than Cruise. The rate of fire is good for both, but 10% Velocity bonus? Important for Torpedos, but for Cruise... not so much.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#666 - 2013-05-08 07:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:

but are you sure on that? or making assumptions? i recommend actually checking, the rokh, even compared to a dual tracking computer hyperion, still outranges its gallente counter part with nought but its bonus alone.

You seem to have neglected the minor matter of falloff.



actually....

http://i.imgur.com/saX6wUO.jpg

nope, I rememebered to count fallofff. (rokh is red, hyperion is green. the hyperion is also using bouncer drones which explains the rather... steep, fall off in damage application on the dps graph)

both ships loaded with CNAM which, at the 80-120km range out preforms spike quite significantly and thse stats have been derived from the updated EFT files located on failheap challenge.

note, the hyperion IS better when closer, much better thanks to the combination of bouncer drones and its damage bonused railguns but the rokh, with a single tracking enhancer out preforms the hyperion for 75% of the "sniping sweet spot" from 85km all the way out and beyond.

Quote:
And dont you see the cheesiness here? why should the Rokh outtank, outdamage and outrange the hyperion if they have the same role? the problem still is; the Rokh wants to be resilient Blasterplatform and resilient sniper. If i fit my Hyperion with Railguns, why should she be inferior to the rokh (apart from the different slotlayout and the different tanks). Why should the Hyperion not be equal to the rokh if fitted correctly? Both are using the same weapon System.


the cheese is entirely relative, as while the rokh represents the better fleet sniper (a job the DOMINIX, not the hyperion is intended to make use of) the hyperion is a far superior small gang battleship with its good cap stability, powerful ability to rep locally, its strong drone bay and superior speed.

the rokh is a ship of the line, the hyperion is a man-o-war ^^

now for people complaining about the raven....

http://i.imgur.com/2RmWykz.png

oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 841 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#667 - 2013-05-08 07:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Hagika wrote:
it expanded but not enough to read.


here il type out the info:
Scorpion - With my proposed change at All skills V
Highs
- x6 Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedos
Medums
- x1 100MN Prototype MicroWarpdrive I
- x1 Warp Scrambler II
- x2 Stasis Webifier II
- x1 Target Painter II
- x2 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
- x1 Large Shield Extender II
Lows
- x1 Damage Control II
- x3 Ballistic Control II
Rigs
- x1 Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
- x2 Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Drones
- x5 Vespa II
- x5 Hornet II

Defence: 100,026 EHP (16,738 Shields / 69.98% EM / 71.02% Th / 78.27% Ki / 81.89% Ex)
Cap: 1m40s / 63.70% Stable MWD Off
Damage: 979.82 DPS while using Fury and Vespa (Fury Explosion Radius is 435m, perfect against Painted and Webbed Battleships, full DPS application)
Propulsion: 1,003.37m/sec MWD On / 141.25m/sec MWD Off

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2013-05-08 07:36:38 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
...oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.
I liked the price... 43.9M Isk. Blink
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#669 - 2013-05-08 07:38:52 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:

but are you sure on that? or making assumptions? i recommend actually checking, the rokh, even compared to a dual tracking computer hyperion, still outranges its gallente counter part with nought but its bonus alone.

You seem to have neglected the minor matter of falloff.



actually....

http://i.imgur.com/saX6wUO.jpg

nope, I rememebered to count fallofff. (rokh is red, hyperion is green. the hyperion is also using bouncer drones which explains the rather... steep, fall off in damage application on the dps graph)

both ships loaded with CNAM which, at the 80-120km range out preforms spike quite significantly and thse stats have been derived from the updated EFT files located on failheap challenge.

note, the hyperion IS better when closer, much better thanks to the combination of bouncer drones and its damage bonused railguns but the rokh, with a single tracking enhancer out preforms the hyperion for 75% of the "sniping sweet spot" from 85km all the way out and beyond.

Quote:
And dont you see the cheesiness here? why should the Rokh outtank, outdamage and outrange the hyperion if they have the same role? the problem still is; the Rokh wants to be resilient Blasterplatform and resilient sniper. If i fit my Hyperion with Railguns, why should she be inferior to the rokh (apart from the different slotlayout and the different tanks). Why should the Hyperion not be equal to the rokh if fitted correctly? Both are using the same weapon System.


the cheese is entirely relative, as while the rokh represents the better fleet sniper (a job the DOMINIX, not the hyperion is intended to make use of) the hyperion is a far superior small gang battleship with its good cap stability, powerful ability to rep locally, its strong drone bay and superior speed.

the rokh is a ship of the line, the hyperion is a man-o-war ^^

now for people complaining about the raven....

http://i.imgur.com/2RmWykz.png

oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 841 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.


Nice Overly Tanked Raven.............

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#670 - 2013-05-08 07:41:50 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

the rokh is a ship of the line, the hyperion is a man-o-war ^^

I don't think the phrases 'Ship of the Line' and 'Man-o-War' mean what you think they mean.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#671 - 2013-05-08 07:44:20 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.
I liked the price... 43.9M Isk. Blink





heheh yeah, the EFT files "add" new ship profiles to the layout, which can't source prices from eve because they don't exist ^^

some more fun facts...

the typhoon has significant difficulty fitting a full rack of torpedo launchers and a pair of 1600mm plates

the typhoon with 2 1600mm plates is slower than the raven

the typhoon with a single 1600mm plate is vastly outtanked by the raven

the typhoon can, assuming it wishes to tank, only manage 3 ballistic control systems to the raven's four. this is compensated for by its heavy drone deployment, however the raven still out ranges the typhoons torpedoes by 10 kilometres. remember when i mentioned it was faster? :D

the typhoon, in terms of raw damage, in torpedo range, has the advantage. however, the raven's frankly absurd fitting ability gives it a significant edge when it comes to fitting tank, dps mods and, should it so please, a heavy neut in its highs for support.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#672 - 2013-05-08 07:49:43 UTC
10% bonuses to optimal and damage on an eight-turret Rokh? You guys are funny. Lol
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#673 - 2013-05-08 07:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Connall Tara wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
...oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.
I liked the price... 43.9M Isk. Blink





heheh yeah, the EFT files "add" new ship profiles to the layout, which can't source prices from eve because they don't exist ^^

some more fun facts...

the typhoon has significant difficulty fitting a full rack of torpedo launchers and a pair of 1600mm plates

the typhoon with 2 1600mm plates is slower than the raven

the typhoon with a single 1600mm plate is vastly outtanked by the raven

the typhoon can, assuming it wishes to tank, only manage 3 ballistic control systems to the raven's four. this is compensated for by its heavy drone deployment, however the raven still out ranges the typhoons torpedoes by 10 kilometres. remember when i mentioned it was faster? :D

the typhoon, in terms of raw damage, in torpedo range, has the advantage. however, the raven's frankly absurd fitting ability gives it a significant edge when it comes to fitting tank, dps mods and, should it so please, a heavy neut in its highs for support.


Your Raven fit sucks bro, where the utility? Other than the Neut 0, um you speak of maintaining range on the Phoon, how the FUK do you plan on doing that with your fit? 1m18s cap go blow yourself. Shyte fit because of only tank, only gank, 0 utility. oh enjoy the Typhoon hiting you for full damage with Torps because of your signature radius, oh yeah what will you do if its a shield Phoon, its gonna be clinging to your ass like shyte to a nappy. Oh yeah and a Shield Phoon HAS MORE DAMAGE, your a fool mate.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#674 - 2013-05-08 07:53:28 UTC

Quote:
now for people complaining about the raven....

http://i.imgur.com/2RmWykz.png

oh CCP, We're so terrible, the ship is worthless, its ability to project 1000 dps out to stupid ranges simply isn't enough, it can't hit anything with its CALDARI NAVY CRUISE MISSILES.

people... the raven is FINE, if anything its superior to the typhoon which CANNOT MATCH ITS DPS AND TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm happy enough to provide more screenshots if people are interested.



ehhh. man, it is very tireing when people say it is fine about something it is really not. I fly caldari missile BS-s for 4 years now, and i know it's merits and flaws to the detail.

So again, for the 100th time, yes, raven can do big damage on paper, but a fast and smaller or high tank ship can and will evade a lot of its damage.

a raven can do atm 4000+ volley damage but if you count ressist -60% of the damage goes away, if you count the sign additional 10% goes away if you factor the speed in, additional 5%-20% damage is gone so... with rigs and tp you can take away some of the additional reduction but as you know missiles is not instant damage, so the said target ship can, and will warp or fly away. those are the facts of today.

It does not have the cpu for double ancillary it does not have shield bonus to make it effective. regular shield boosts cannot work on the ship because cap is neuted. cap booster takes away the tank or tp. those are the facts of today.

for pvp.

it does not have the slots to equip sensor booster for npc ecm. you have to equip a billion isk shield booster to make an effective tank. those are the facts of today.

its cap is bad speed is bad, and shield boosting takes away the capacity of the capacitor so AB and mwd is out of the question. Those are the facts of today.

for pve

If anyone tells me raven is fine, i wil break something.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#675 - 2013-05-08 07:53:37 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
10% bonuses to optimal and damage on an eight-turret Rokh? You guys are funny. Lol


You obviously didn't read the restriction to Railguns only........... another blind fool who cant read.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#676 - 2013-05-08 07:54:30 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

some more fun facts....
What I see... or think I do is that the while the Raven might have higher paper DPS, the Typhoon will be able to apply it's damage better than the Raven. The "+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity" is significant, plus target painters will be easier to fit in the Typhoon's mid slots.

Will it work out that way in practice. I don't know, but time will tell.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#677 - 2013-05-08 07:55:01 UTC
Quote:
Nice Overly Tanked Raven.............


admittedly yes, but i think its important to note that an overtanked raven does not loose dps in doing so, unlike the typhoon which does. again, i should stipulate that the much vaunted typhoon MUST trade tank for dps, the raven does not have this issue

Quote:
I don't think the phrases 'Ship of the Line' and 'Man-o-War' mean what you think they mean.


nice to know that my actual points regarding the rokh vs the hyperion have gone uncontested eh?

oh i know what they mean, but the general terms appeared to carry over the significance of the differences i was implying.

perhaps stating that the Rokh fights like a Napoleonic warship within the fleet while the Hyperion fights like a german battleship of world war 2 would be a more accurate description?

how about a more simple description...

the rokh is a fleet boat, the Hyperion is a small to mid gang roamer.

1 hyperion will beat 1 rokh, 100 rokhs will beat 100 Hyperion. why? because the rokhs have weaker damage, but better application and stiffer tanks.

the two ships WERE both teir 3's, but that distinction is irrelevant now as they're BOTH combat battleships: one for big fights, one for smaller fights.

a blaster Hyperion is a better blaster boat than a rokh, but my earlier point in regards to rokhs with blasters is that blaster rokhs have some advantages over the Hyperion thanks to the 10% optimal bonus/level.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#678 - 2013-05-08 07:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
10% bonuses to optimal and damage on an eight-turret Rokh? You guys are funny. Lol


You obviously didn't read the restriction to Railguns only........... another blind fool who cant read.


Of course I read it. So what? You think that makes it sensible?

Your ideas for the Raven are almost as bad - seven launchers and a shield boost bonus? Its problems aren't DPS, they're mobility and survivability in gang (common to all ABS), and in that environment the missile velocity bonus is fairly useful, certainly more useful than a shield boost bonus, since tank will come from logi. Your ideas look tailored for the average L4 mission runner.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#679 - 2013-05-08 08:02:01 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
10% bonuses to optimal and damage on an eight-turret Rokh? You guys are funny. Lol


You obviously didn't read the restriction to Railguns only........... another blind fool who cant read.


Of course I read it. So what? You think that makes it sensible?


Yeah cause of the fact that Railguns are biggest piece of s h i t in the game, i ran the numbers and the range and damage bonus at 10% actually makes them useful.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#680 - 2013-05-08 08:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Er, try fitting large rails on your Rokh, not medium ones.

All your idea does is render the blaster Rokh useless and massively OP the fleet rail Rokh.