These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Akiyo Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#561 - 2013-05-04 12:52:22 UTC
The Raven needs more love.

No
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#562 - 2013-05-04 14:14:24 UTC
@CCP Rise
Though I may have missed it, I have not seen any feedback from you concerning the Raven vs. Typhoon issue. Could you please provide feedback in relation the concerns of the players that the Typhoon will plainly outclass the Raven in just about every aspect?

Looking at the ships without considering fitting and the overall slot layout, since both ships have the two ships have the same number of missile launcher hard points and the same rate of fire bonus it is the second bonus that differentiates the ships. The Typhoon will be better at applying damage whereas the Raven will have a range bonus.

I tried to make some PVE (not PVP) fits focusing on a cap stable fit with a balance of active tank and damage. Now bear in mind that this is just fits according to my taste and I am sure people have different tastes when it comes to fits.

Raven
Torpedoes: I could not make a decent fit with torpedoes to suit my purposes because the range bonus does not provide enough range for torpedoes to work properly and the raven is too slow to get into range to make the torpedoes useful. I tried to add an AB but I could not get that to work properly. So for torpedoes: The Raven is too slow and the range afforded by the range bonus is not enough.
Cruise missiles: For the Raven, I found that the in general it works best with CMs because here the does not matter that the Raven is slow since the CMS have a long base strike range, but the range bonus is not relevant because the range of the cruise missiles as they are without the added bonus is adequate. So for CMs: CMs work for the Raven but the range bonus is irrelevant because of the base range of CMs, i.e. the bonus is somewhat wasted here!

Typhoon
Torpedoes: For the Typhoon, I was able to get fit an AB to the active tank and get a cap stable fit. This means that it has speed to get within strike range and the second bonus means that it will be better at applying the damage. So for torpedoes: The Typhoon is a viable torpedo boat and the bonus to apply damage makes it better at applying damage.
Cruise missiles: Using the same basic fit as for torpedoes with a few alterations, I could get it to perform at almost the same level as the Raven, but with the important factor, that it will be better at applying the damage due to its second bonus at a good range thanks to the base range of CMs. And it is still faster than the Raven. So for CMs: CMs work for the Typhoon and the bonus means that it can better apply damage.

TL:DR: PVE fits of my personal taste: Overall, I found that the Raven is best with CMs (where the range bonus is not that relevant!) and torpedoes do not work very well (the Raven is too slow and the range bonus does not provide enough range). The Typhoon can be used with both CMs and torpedoes and its bonus to apply damage is relevant to both types of missiles.

I think the Raven needs to be improved so that it is at least on par with the Typhoon. In general, I think that the attack battleships need to be faster than the fastest combat battleship.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#563 - 2013-05-04 16:30:56 UTC
Unseen Spectre wrote:
@CCP Rise
Though I may have missed it, I have not seen any feedback from you concerning the Raven vs. Typhoon issue. Could you please provide feedback in relation the concerns of the players that the Typhoon will plainly outclass the Raven in just about every aspect?

Looking at the ships without considering fitting and the overall slot layout, since both ships have the two ships have the same number of missile launcher hard points and the same rate of fire bonus it is the second bonus that differentiates the ships. The Typhoon will be better at applying damage whereas the Raven will have a range bonus.

I tried to make some PVE (not PVP) fits focusing on a cap stable fit with a balance of active tank and damage. Now bear in mind that this is just fits according to my taste and I am sure people have different tastes when it comes to fits.

Raven
Torpedoes: I could not make a decent fit with torpedoes to suit my purposes because the range bonus does not provide enough range for torpedoes to work properly and the raven is too slow to get into range to make the torpedoes useful. I tried to add an AB but I could not get that to work properly. So for torpedoes: The Raven is too slow and the range afforded by the range bonus is not enough.
Cruise missiles: For the Raven, I found that the in general it works best with CMs because here the does not matter that the Raven is slow since the CMS have a long base strike range, but the range bonus is not relevant because the range of the cruise missiles as they are without the added bonus is adequate. So for CMs: CMs work for the Raven but the range bonus is irrelevant because of the base range of CMs, i.e. the bonus is somewhat wasted here!

Typhoon
Torpedoes: For the Typhoon, I was able to get fit an AB to the active tank and get a cap stable fit. This means that it has speed to get within strike range and the second bonus means that it will be better at applying the damage. So for torpedoes: The Typhoon is a viable torpedo boat and the bonus to apply damage makes it better at applying damage.
Cruise missiles: Using the same basic fit as for torpedoes with a few alterations, I could get it to perform at almost the same level as the Raven, but with the important factor, that it will be better at applying the damage due to its second bonus at a good range thanks to the base range of CMs. And it is still faster than the Raven. So for CMs: CMs work for the Typhoon and the bonus means that it can better apply damage.

TL:DR: PVE fits of my personal taste: Overall, I found that the Raven is best with CMs (where the range bonus is not that relevant!) and torpedoes do not work very well (the Raven is too slow and the range bonus does not provide enough range). The Typhoon can be used with both CMs and torpedoes and its bonus to apply damage is relevant to both types of missiles.

I think the Raven needs to be improved so that it is at least on par with the Typhoon. In general, I think that the attack battleships need to be faster than the fastest combat battleship.



As much as we appreciate the post, RIse nor Fozzie will address the bad changes or probably even show up on the forum, they know full well they threw caldari pilots a hollow bone filled with crap and called it a treat.
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#564 - 2013-05-04 16:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bucca Zerodyme
I see a pattern in CCP's behavior.

1. They create a feedback thread
2. Spread nonsense
3. Waiting for Feedback
4. Reading 5 Pages
5. Adjusting some Values
6. Call it fixed and be pround, because CCP always listen to pilots
7. Never Look at that thread again, even when 100 Pages have pasted

There is a second pattern:

1. CCP claims something
2. Pilots says its not true
3. CCP says internal research showed...
4. Players asking for the data and results
5. CCP remains silence

Do you see any other patterns?

Edit: posted it in the build cost thread too, because more ppl are looking there then here
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#565 - 2013-05-04 16:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Unseen Spectre
@Hagika
You are probably right... and that is the sad part of it that CCP will not at least provide some feedback - I knew from the beginning that it was a utopian hope to get a reply... but I had to try.
Actually, it seems that the Caldari BS thread seems to have received the least feedback when compared to the other BS threads, which you could construe that Caldari are not really in CCP's focus... which is probably not a big surprise either... for after all, hey they are "just" Caldari ships... who cares???
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#566 - 2013-05-04 19:13:05 UTC
The raven needs a big speed boost. If you're going to give the phoon such a small sig (for a BS, that is) then give the raven the speed it needs. Stop being biased CCP What?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#567 - 2013-05-04 19:19:37 UTC
Unseen Spectre wrote:
@Hagika
You are probably right... and that is the sad part of it that CCP will not at least provide some feedback - I knew from the beginning that it was a utopian hope to get a reply... but I had to try.
Actually, it seems that the Caldari BS thread seems to have received the least feedback when compared to the other BS threads, which you could construe that Caldari are not really in CCP's focus... which is probably not a big surprise either... for after all, hey they are "just" Caldari ships... who cares???


It just really bugs me, because the data out showing ships in pvp clearly shows a lack of caldari aside from the rohk which its still not even close to be number 1 in use.

I fly pretty much all gallente on my main and my alt is amarr. The only thing I had caldari on this guy is to use the harpy and merlin for faction war.

From an outsider perspective, caldari royally gets the shaft on most of their ships. Their best happen to mainly be hybrid weapon systems which they share with gallente.

With all the known issues and with these ridiculous changes, i really have to question CCP's obvious dislike for the caldari race.
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#568 - 2013-05-04 20:44:33 UTC
@Hagika
Although the recent could be construed as CCP is having a bias against the Caldari (for whatever reasons/whether consciously or unconsciously) CCP will never admit to such a bias (I will be really surprised if they do!)...
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#569 - 2013-05-05 18:27:39 UTC
Unseen Spectre wrote:
@Hagika
Although the recent could be construed as CCP is having a bias against the Caldari (for whatever reasons/whether consciously or unconsciously) CCP will never admit to such a bias (I will be really surprised if they do!)...



It would be like game racism lol.
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#570 - 2013-05-05 18:29:28 UTC
lol :D
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#571 - 2013-05-05 18:42:01 UTC
We have had a total of 4 dev posts on the caldari forum aside from the change post.

All right near the beginning. One was a correction on Rokh slot layout that was misprinted, other was an answer to a question on navy raven.
The 3rd was a generic response on missile issues that they havent quite pinned down and the last being a slight base shield increase to the raven after player feedback on how garbage the tank was.

I point this out because we have had a ton off feedback on how the changes really did nothing and when you go on the other battleship threads for the other 3 races, they have been posting and responding all over it.

Far more than what we have seen here, its so very lopsided. If you havent figured out the biased dislike for caldari from previous history, then just go look. Its definitely not cool.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2013-05-05 20:00:50 UTC
Hagika wrote:
We have had a total of 4 dev posts on the caldari forum aside from the change post.

All right near the beginning. One was a correction on Rokh slot layout that was misprinted, other was an answer to a question on navy raven.
The 3rd was a generic response on missile issues that they havent quite pinned down and the last being a slight base shield increase to the raven after player feedback on how garbage the tank was.

I point this out because we have had a ton off feedback on how the changes really did nothing and when you go on the other battleship threads for the other 3 races, they have been posting and responding all over it.

Far more than what we have seen here, its so very lopsided. If you havent figured out the biased dislike for caldari from previous history, then just go look. Its definitely not cool.


Agreed! It really pisses me off...If you gonna claim 'balancing' you don't shaft the one race with the crappiest ships to begin with.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#573 - 2013-05-05 20:07:49 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Hagika wrote:
We have had a total of 4 dev posts on the caldari forum aside from the change post.

All right near the beginning. One was a correction on Rokh slot layout that was misprinted, other was an answer to a question on navy raven.
The 3rd was a generic response on missile issues that they havent quite pinned down and the last being a slight base shield increase to the raven after player feedback on how garbage the tank was.

I point this out because we have had a ton off feedback on how the changes really did nothing and when you go on the other battleship threads for the other 3 races, they have been posting and responding all over it.

Far more than what we have seen here, its so very lopsided. If you havent figured out the biased dislike for caldari from previous history, then just go look. Its definitely not cool.


Agreed! It really pisses me off...If you gonna claim 'balancing' you don't shaft the one race with the crappiest ships to begin with.



Whats worse is there was no lube involved.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#574 - 2013-05-05 22:21:01 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
The raven needs a big speed boost. If you're going to give the phoon such a small sig (for a BS, that is) then give the raven the speed it needs. Stop being biased CCP What?


CCP dev guidelines.

If amarr & cap life = crap (ignore)
If caldari & ship = popular (nerf)
If gallente & forum whine less than 2 hours = buff
If minmatar = buff.

Got to hand it to the minnies, the technologically most backward people in eve are not only the most versatile jack of all trades but they are the absolute masters at everything. Their 'rust buckets' out perform every other race in new eden in every meaningful way.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#575 - 2013-05-05 22:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
The raven needs a big speed boost. If you're going to give the phoon such a small sig (for a BS, that is) then give the raven the speed it needs. Stop being biased CCP What?


CCP dev guidelines.

If amarr & cap life = crap (ignore)
If caldari & ship = popular (nerf)
If gallente & forum whine less than 2 hours = buff
If minmatar = buff.

Got to hand it to the minnies, the technologically most backward people in eve are not only the most versatile jack of all trades but they are the absolute masters at everything. Their 'rust buckets' out perform every other race in new eden in every meaningful way.


Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#576 - 2013-05-06 00:06:44 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
The raven needs a big speed boost. If you're going to give the phoon such a small sig (for a BS, that is) then give the raven the speed it needs. Stop being biased CCP What?


CCP dev guidelines.

If amarr & cap life = crap (ignore)
If caldari & ship = popular (nerf)
If gallente & forum whine less than 2 hours = buff
If minmatar = buff.

Got to hand it to the minnies, the technologically most backward people in eve are not only the most versatile jack of all trades but they are the absolute masters at everything. Their 'rust buckets' out perform every other race in new eden in every meaningful way.


Kinda fascinating how that is working out...

Maybe the CCP guys like flying Minmatar. Hate Caldari and Amarr. And decided to help their in-game personal-account allies the gallente. Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Also raises the question of their professionalism.

SInce it is finals weeks for many people, CCP here are your grades over the last year:

Retribution Expansion
85% or 'B'

(Reason, didn't like the HML nerf when a change of missile mechanics would be common sense first step)

Retribution Devs
90% or 'A'

Odyssey Expansion
50% or 'F'

(Reason, ship 'reblancing' is bullshit. Winmatar and Gallente are buffed. Amarr and Caldari are shafted to put it gently. UI changes and stargate-cinematic are good. Again missile changes avoid the glaring issue that you seem to be ignoring in a biased manner)

Odyssey Devs
15% or 'F'

Reason: The only points being awarded are for UI and stargate-cinematic changes.

Any of my fellow Eve Players disagree with my grading rubric?


I can agree with most, but I also havent played the last 6 months. So the previous xpac I dont know much about.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#577 - 2013-05-06 00:09:21 UTC
Unseen Spectre wrote:
@CCP Rise
Though I may have missed it, I have not seen any feedback from you concerning the Raven vs. Typhoon issue. Could you please provide feedback in relation the concerns of the players that the Typhoon will plainly outclass the Raven in just about every aspect?

Looking at the ships without considering fitting and the overall slot layout, since both ships have the two ships have the same number of missile launcher hard points and the same rate of fire bonus it is the second bonus that differentiates the ships. The Typhoon will be better at applying damage whereas the Raven will have a range bonus.

I tried to make some PVE (not PVP) fits focusing on a cap stable fit with a balance of active tank and damage. Now bear in mind that this is just fits according to my taste and I am sure people have different tastes when it comes to fits.

Raven
Torpedoes: I could not make a decent fit with torpedoes to suit my purposes because the range bonus does not provide enough range for torpedoes to work properly and the raven is too slow to get into range to make the torpedoes useful. I tried to add an AB but I could not get that to work properly. So for torpedoes: The Raven is too slow and the range afforded by the range bonus is not enough.
Cruise missiles: For the Raven, I found that the in general it works best with CMs because here the does not matter that the Raven is slow since the CMS have a long base strike range, but the range bonus is not relevant because the range of the cruise missiles as they are without the added bonus is adequate. So for CMs: CMs work for the Raven but the range bonus is irrelevant because of the base range of CMs, i.e. the bonus is somewhat wasted here!

Typhoon
Torpedoes: For the Typhoon, I was able to get fit an AB to the active tank and get a cap stable fit. This means that it has speed to get within strike range and the second bonus means that it will be better at applying the damage. So for torpedoes: The Typhoon is a viable torpedo boat and the bonus to apply damage makes it better at applying damage.
Cruise missiles: Using the same basic fit as for torpedoes with a few alterations, I could get it to perform at almost the same level as the Raven, but with the important factor, that it will be better at applying the damage due to its second bonus at a good range thanks to the base range of CMs. And it is still faster than the Raven. So for CMs: CMs work for the Typhoon and the bonus means that it can better apply damage.

TL:DR: PVE fits of my personal taste: Overall, I found that the Raven is best with CMs (where the range bonus is not that relevant!) and torpedoes do not work very well (the Raven is too slow and the range bonus does not provide enough range). The Typhoon can be used with both CMs and torpedoes and its bonus to apply damage is relevant to both types of missiles.

I think the Raven needs to be improved so that it is at least on par with the Typhoon. In general, I think that the attack battleships need to be faster than the fastest combat battleship.


Just wait till the Faction-BS rebalance, where the Typhoon will get a 7th launcher and a fifth med-slot, while the cnr gets a.. another med.. This would be death to the cnr for missions.. I allready bought one Fleet Typhoon..
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#578 - 2013-05-06 00:33:25 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


Just wait till the Faction-BS rebalance, where the Typhoon will get a 7th launcher and a fifth med-slot, while the cnr gets a.. another med.. This would be death to the cnr for missions.. I allready bought one Fleet Typhoon..


Typhoon has already 5 mid-slots.
Its strange to see, how every race besides Caldari get an additional Slot. Typhoon Fleet Issue, Apocalypse Navy Issue, Dominix Navy Issue, only The Raven Navy Issue remains the same.

The same goes for Marauders, every Marauder get a dmg-Bonus only the Golem dont get it.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#579 - 2013-05-06 05:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
I read a lot of pages now about the caldari ship changes which will come in odessey. A lot i find justified, like the scorpion issues, and some with the rokh.

But there are a lot of concerns about the raven I do not find justified, and I would like to come to the defense of the devs, at least about the raven.

To put things a bit in perspective, cruise missiles and cruise launchers will get a considerable buff. +25% damage will put regular cruise missile close to javelin torps, above if you use faction and far far above if you use rage. Now add that the launchers will get a +25% rof which makes the raven far far superior in pve than any other bs in the game even the Typhoon.
Why it will be superior to a typhoon? well, it is true that a Tyhoon will be more precise and fire more often with torps, but without the range bonus, they will reach... well nothing. also they will be armor tanked and slow. really slow.


Keep in mind that range will not burden your ship, also and you can counter speed dam red. with skills and rigs...or one TP which you can now fit additionally

With the one extra mid slot and the plus cpu, you will be able fit double ancillary, which i think is the most powerful pvp defense in the game imo right now. I just saw a video made by a crazy russian(in a positive way ofcSmile), who tanked an entire fleet of ships with double ancillary flying a Vargur in pvp.

But if you are a pve machine, with the increased speed and slot, you can now mount an afterburner.

About the range bonus. The raven will be most likely be a premiere cruise missile ship, and thus the range bonus of the ship could be changed. But the pvp comes to play. The problem with missiles in pvp was that they were so slow, it wasn't worth using. They changed that also: The new cruise will fly with 4700m/s with lvl5 bs and missile range skill, the missile speed will go above 10k m/s, even more with rig bonus. if you fight at 30km range, which is realistic, the average flight time will be less than 3s.

I think with raven, CCP Rise knows what he's doing.

*edit*
It would be better if the range bonus the raven has would be swapped with the expl velocity bonus the typhoon has, this way both ships would benefit for the better. That i would change.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#580 - 2013-05-06 07:44:18 UTC
Zetak wrote:
*edit*
It would be better if the range bonus the raven has would be swapped with the expl velocity bonus the typhoon has, this way both ships would benefit for the better. That i would change.


So, essentially, you think Raven is fine, except for that small part about turning a Raven into a Typhoon :D

Anyway, I've been following this discussion, but I can't say I agree with comments about Raven being weak - with the increased velocity bonus for missiles, buffed cruises and MJD, the ship can pull off some pretty crazy stunts that Typhoon will have a hard time matching. Yes, Typhoon makes for a vastly superior torpedo boat, but it'll be long dead before it catches the Raven.

That said, with increased costs for the T1 battleships, I'm opting for CNR - more dps and better tank for slightly increased cost, it's a no-brainer.

Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
The same goes for Marauders, every Marauder get a dmg-Bonus only the Golem dont get it.


You might want to check that again. Just because the bonuses don't increase the paper dps, it doesn't mean that the actual damage application doesn't go up. If you don't believe me, feel free to pit an untrained Golem with no target painters against a trained one with 2 painters and see how it ends.