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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Jitoru
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#441 - 2013-04-24 21:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jitoru
Hey there everyone,
Ill take the freedom of sum up the opinions here

Raven
We are relatively ok with the changes for the raven, she gained a great deal of speed there, and a little agility. The loss of tank makes up for the additional tank fitting possibility.

Scorpion
Most of the Players are not OK with the Scorpion as it is... and the change hitting with Odyssey just makes them realize and think over all the things they dislike about the slow, not very resilient, unbattleshiplike (no damage bonuses) ECM Boat that is seldomly flown. We think the Scorpion is not fine because we are not ok with ECM in general.

Rokh
There are various remarks about the rokh, most ppl know her as Sniper for Years, which is working. Some People, like me, see the Naga as an outrage in this case, because it does the sniping better than the Rokh. The Reason because we think so is: in a Real fleet battle the Tank the Rokh fields barely matters, because hundreds of ships are shooting on the primary it doesnt matter if the sniper in question has 25k or 90k ehp. What Matters is, that the Naga locks faster, does more damage and applys the damage exactly as the rokh does, while being more agile and faster as the rokh.

if there any additional details i missed please feel free to add it in here

have a nice day

Jitoru
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#442 - 2013-04-24 23:12:50 UTC
Jitoru wrote:
The Reason because we think so is: in a Real fleet battle the Tank the Rokh fields barely matters, because hundreds of ships are shooting on the primary it doesnt matter if the sniper in question has 25k or 90k ehp.


If EHP doesn't matter, then neither do DPS or alpha.
Martineski
Weapons for Mass Destruction
#443 - 2013-04-25 00:09:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Entity wrote:
How will this affect the Raven State Issue? Bear


We have a special balance pass in mind for you entity.


does this even really matter? why would changing bonuses on unobtainable, and unused ships even matter? there are soo many unused ships in EVE that it seems pointless to even mention them anymore. Make the RSI and other ships available to all players and then it might have some effect. CCP is always removing unused items and stuff from the database i am surprised that these ELITE BS haven't been removed as well since no one can get they and no one uses them.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#444 - 2013-04-25 00:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
I don't like the reductions on the Caldari drone bays and bandwidth. Yet we need those bays to offset the crap damage that our missiles do. Add that to the list.
NiteNinja
Doomheim
#445 - 2013-04-25 00:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: NiteNinja
Okay, interesting changes, but as a Golem user, the Raven buff kinda makes me upset.

One of the reasons I fly a Golem over the Raven is because the Golem has a 7th midslot, so I can fit a MWD on top of the tank and painters.

Well now the Raven can too.

And at BS 5, the Raven has the same DPS as a similarly fit Golem.

So why train 40 days and spend a few billion isk on a Tech 2 BS when the Tech 1 is just as good?

Sure, nice painter bonus on the Golem, and tank bonus, but T2 Rage torpedoes have been nerfed so even with dual painter, you still cannot hit the broad side of a Leviathan at point blank range if it was standing still.

And my missile skills are maxed mind you.

So unless Golem gets buffed to actually make it worth training, you'll see a drop in Marauder use.

All you did is made a Raven into a Golem with better sensors and no shield boost/ target painter bonus...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2013-04-25 00:56:18 UTC
Martineski wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Entity wrote:
How will this affect the Raven State Issue? Bear


We have a special balance pass in mind for you entity.


does this even really matter? why would changing bonuses on unobtainable, and unused ships even matter? there are soo many unused ships in EVE that it seems pointless to even mention them anymore. Make the RSI and other ships available to all players and then it might have some effect. CCP is always removing unused items and stuff from the database i am surprised that these ELITE BS haven't been removed as well since no one can get they and no one uses them.

The things they have removed are those that do not exist and therefore cannot be used, anything which is removed that does exist tends to draw uproar upon removal, especially when it CAN be used, but the owner chooses not to. This matters because there are individuals who have devoted their play to obtaining rare items and ships and it's hardly fitting to remove or cheapen the achievements of those players.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#447 - 2013-04-25 02:16:59 UTC
Jitoru wrote:
Hey there everyone,
Ill take the freedom of sum up the opinions here

Raven
We are relatively ok with the changes for the raven, she gained a great deal of speed there, and a little agility. The loss of tank makes up for the additional tank fitting possibility.



False. I have flown the new Raven on Duality, and it's tank is utterly abominable compared to literally every other battleship. Keep in mind, the Raven lost shields, armor AND structure- That's a BIG EHP drop, and it's something that the seventh medslot does NOT offset, at all. There is no additional tank fitting possibility either, because a smart person will use this seventh midslot for the mandatory target painter the Raven needs, especially with torpedoes. It's sig radius is too big for it's increased speed to mean anything more than maybe being able to keep proper ranges better, it's capacitor dies in a minute and fifty seconds with solid engineering skills with the MWD alone (and takes multiple cycles to reach top speed).

The Raven has no staying power, and honestly it seems to be easily thwarted by active tanks. Solo, at least. In groups, I'm not sure. Because there's never more than four people on Duality at any given time. :\
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#448 - 2013-04-25 02:42:24 UTC
Jitoru wrote:
Hey there everyone,
Ill take the freedom of sum up the opinions here

Raven
We are relatively ok with the changes for the raven, she gained a great deal of speed there, and a little agility. The loss of tank makes up for the additional tank fitting possibility.

Scorpion
Most of the Players are not OK with the Scorpion as it is... and the change hitting with Odyssey just makes them realize and think over all the things they dislike about the slow, not very resilient, unbattleshiplike (no damage bonuses) ECM Boat that is seldomly flown. We think the Scorpion is not fine because we are not ok with ECM in general.

Rokh
There are various remarks about the rokh, most ppl know her as Sniper for Years, which is working. Some People, like me, see the Naga as an outrage in this case, because it does the sniping better than the Rokh. The Reason because we think so is: in a Real fleet battle the Tank the Rokh fields barely matters, because hundreds of ships are shooting on the primary it doesnt matter if the sniper in question has 25k or 90k ehp. What Matters is, that the Naga locks faster, does more damage and applys the damage exactly as the rokh does, while being more agile and faster as the rokh.

if there any additional details i missed please feel free to add it in here

have a nice day

Jitoru


False! We are not "ok" with these changes...

Raven had a bad tank to begin with.

Rohk needs its bonus to shield resistances at 5%

Scorpion is crap due to ECM being broken. In addition it can't tank and it can't do any damage. It is only ECM which is worthless. Due to the mechanics of ECM.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#449 - 2013-04-25 05:53:53 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Have you actually read the new specs? I too am a dedicated caldari pilot At least on one of my toons. I fly the Raven a lot, completed over 1000 lvl 4 missions with it. I never said the Raven was crappy, just that it's tank was barely adequate. True the Raven can be fit with a very good tank. But in doing so the DPS is far to low to be an efficient mission runner. As an experienced level 4 mission runner, any fit that includes CCC rigs is a fail. At worst fit a cap booster, but do not sacrifice DPS for tank. Gank is tank when running missions.

My raven is fit for DPS with cruise missiles, It does well over 700 DPS, and with 2 rigor rigs and a flare rig it applies that DPS very well out past 50km, a range that is needed in level 4 missions. You need this kind of DPS to compete with other mission running fits. If you are happy with 400-500 DPS then you are better off running missions with the Drake as it will do 400-500 DPS and still have a better tank. My Raven can complete missions almost as fast as a Mach. At a fraction of the price.

If you have not noticed the changes coming with Odyssey bring a significant reduction of the ravens tank. -500 shields HP, - 841 armor, and - 241 hull. 500 shield HP may not sound like much, but with 75% resists that is 2000 EHP. The extra mid slot should more than make up for this lost tank, but does not really add any utility. An extra mid slot would have been nice for a Target painter, or e-war, but now you need to use it for tank to compensate for the cuts to its already mediocre tank.

The raven has also had a little boost to CPU and power grid ans well as a small buff to its capacitor. As I said, I never said the Raven was crappy, only that I would have to test these changes to see if it was actually a buff, or a nerf in disguise. I

Sure, let's rebalance Caldari around running level 4 missions and PVE RollRollRoll

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Now on to the Scorpion. ECM has been nerfed to hell. ECM is nearly useless in PVE. Missiles are nearly useless in PVP. So what situation is this ship used for?

The Scorpion is the worst ship in its class for DPS. It has a decent tank, but is set up as primarily an ECM boat. Why does nobody complain about other races not having an ECM battleship? One simple fact, because they suck and nobody wants or uses them. If an ECM battleship was a good idea every none caldari pilot would be complaining their race did not have one. Making the Scorpions primary purpose ECM, makes the ship near worthless.

[snip]
I


Wow. Just wow.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#450 - 2013-04-25 06:57:34 UTC
Only just noticed the Raven losing drone bandwidth. Really? That's not necessary,
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#451 - 2013-04-25 07:35:51 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Only just noticed the Raven losing drone bandwidth. Really? That's not necessary,


What did you do with the extra bandwidth? It changes literally nothing; you can still run a complete flight of medium or light drones. Unless you were... Using heavy drones for some reason? Even though five mediums do more damage than that and are faster, IIRC.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#452 - 2013-04-25 09:50:13 UTC
With 75 m3 you could do the 2-2-1 trick, that gives more damage than five meds. I've always prefered a flight of meds and a flight of small, split between damage and dishonour, though.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#453 - 2013-04-25 11:00:53 UTC
btw CCP
420 sig radius is hardly useful on an attack battleship considering battleship guns start at 400...... plus shield rigs/extenders...

considering most caldari ships shield tank it is odd that they need to have such a high sig radius to begin with.....??/

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#454 - 2013-04-25 11:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Aglais wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Only just noticed the Raven losing drone bandwidth. Really? That's not necessary,


What did you do with the extra bandwidth? It changes literally nothing; you can still run a complete flight of medium or light drones. Unless you were... Using heavy drones for some reason? Even though five mediums do more damage than that and are faster, IIRC.


Three bouncers.

On stuff like pirate invasion and other semi-static missions (i.e. everything without a massive gate crawl) they were a nice source of supplemental DPS which was much more survivable than other drone types.

Late edit: for my skills the sentries do more damage and die a HELL of Lot less (read, never)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#455 - 2013-04-25 12:27:22 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
btw CCP
considering most caldari ships shield tank it is odd that they need to have such a high sig radius to begin with.....??/


Why is it odd? It's supposed to be a racial theme, in the same way that many Amarr ships are really slow even before slapping trimarks and plates on. Giving them small sigs that are then bloomed by rigs/extenders to intermediate levels is just a method of homogenisation across races. Don't go down that route, keep distinct racial advantages and disadvantages.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#456 - 2013-04-25 12:56:52 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
btw CCP
considering most caldari ships shield tank it is odd that they need to have such a high sig radius to begin with.....??/


Why is it odd? It's supposed to be a racial theme, in the same way that many Amarr ships are really slow even before slapping trimarks and plates on. Giving them small sigs that are then bloomed by rigs/extenders to intermediate levels is just a method of homogenisation across races. Don't go down that route, keep distinct racial advantages and disadvantages.



That is not entirely true, lots of armor ships are faster than Caldari ships as a base hull and there are several ships that have bigger sig rating as a base hull.

the oracle is faster than the Naga and the Talos has a bigger sig rating than the Naga as a base, this patern is found through out the shiplines

Though the Mega has a smaller sig than the Raven and the Apoc is just as fast as the Raven.

there seems an inconsistancy here.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2013-04-25 16:12:44 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
btw CCP
considering most caldari ships shield tank it is odd that they need to have such a high sig radius to begin with.....??/


Why is it odd? It's supposed to be a racial theme, in the same way that many Amarr ships are really slow even before slapping trimarks and plates on. Giving them small sigs that are then bloomed by rigs/extenders to intermediate levels is just a method of homogenisation across races. Don't go down that route, keep distinct racial advantages and disadvantages.

Rofl so having a disadvantage without anything to compensate is racial theme?
Btw why minmatar ships are so small other than racial theme? They dont have less hp , weapons or anything, so why they need to get this advantage over the other races?
It wouldnt be such a bs ,if they got an advantage also to compensate it ,but nothing there.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#458 - 2013-04-25 16:13:44 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
btw CCP
considering most caldari ships shield tank it is odd that they need to have such a high sig radius to begin with.....??/


Why is it odd? It's supposed to be a racial theme, in the same way that many Amarr ships are really slow even before slapping trimarks and plates on. Giving them small sigs that are then bloomed by rigs/extenders to intermediate levels is just a method of homogenisation across races. Don't go down that route, keep distinct racial advantages and disadvantages.



That is not entirely true, lots of armor ships are faster than Caldari ships as a base hull and there are several ships that have bigger sig rating as a base hull.

the oracle is faster than the Naga and the Talos has a bigger sig rating than the Naga as a base, this patern is found through out the shiplines

Though the Mega has a smaller sig than the Raven and the Apoc is just as fast as the Raven.

there seems an inconsistancy here.

It is completly consistant , matar get advantage , caldari disadvantage . Biased devs thats all.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#459 - 2013-04-25 16:15:01 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Only just noticed the Raven losing drone bandwidth. Really? That's not necessary,


What did you do with the extra bandwidth? It changes literally nothing; you can still run a complete flight of medium or light drones. Unless you were... Using heavy drones for some reason? Even though five mediums do more damage than that and are faster, IIRC.

It doesnt matter what he did with the extra bandwidth. Changes nothing then why do it? It actually changes ,it is another unneded nerf for caldari.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#460 - 2013-04-25 16:25:29 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
It doesnt matter what he did with the extra bandwidth. Changes nothing then why do it? It actually changes ,it is another unneded nerf for caldari.

Honestly, raven will need a lot of nerf to compensate for the cruise missiles buff they just received. Not that it need for all the buff to be compensated, but it still end a LOT higher than it was.