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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#361 - 2013-04-15 06:10:58 UTC
These battleship change forums kinda depress me :/

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#362 - 2013-04-15 06:25:20 UTC
What is the point of all the range bonuses for the caldari?

Every T1 BS in the caldari line has a range bonus. But sniping as a gameplay is a joke!

Imagine a raven trying to warp in at range to lock, and shoot.....

He will be scanned down in 5 sec.

Caldari has the slowest lock time and a weapon system that takes x seconds to reach target. While a scan takes 5 sec.


Do you have any plans of changing the probing system, so a sniper actually have some sort of playtime before his spot is scanned down?
I'm not thinking minutes, but ~25 sec +/- like old times.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-04-15 06:53:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
(except Caldari, who will retain the only 'Disruption' Battleship for the time being).
May this be, as you say, for the time being -- and not forever.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#364 - 2013-04-15 20:02:04 UTC
does anyone else think the scorp having 3 bonuses is a bit odd?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#365 - 2013-04-15 22:14:47 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
does anyone else think the scorp having 3 bonuses is a bit odd?


Current Dominix has three, future Dominix has four. So what?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#366 - 2013-04-15 22:39:12 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
does anyone else think the scorp having 3 bonuses is a bit odd?


Current Dominix has three, future Dominix has four. So what?


Wait. Have people ever screamed about this in past? Because if they have but disregarded the dominix that's ********.

Further if the future Dominix has four bonuses... What would be the harm in giving the Raven a third? Like a nice explosion velocty bonus, to help it suck less with torpedoes? Of course, the Typhoon would have to get something as well, though.
Mirala Nodoka
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#367 - 2013-04-16 12:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirala Nodoka
The Scorpion is still lacking, even with the changes..

Quote:
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 8M, 5L(+1); 4 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+359) / 5500 / 6500(+1031)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 480


It is one of three battleship with 18 slots instead of 19 (the other one being the Dominix).

It is also the ONLY battleship meant for E-war and not for direct combat.
This places it into a very unique position.

Either CCP can build up onto this position or change the ship even more drastically.

The main advantages of the Scorpion over the Rook and Falcon are its increased Optimal and Falloff Range for ECM 125% at level 5), its bigger tank and its bigger number of Low Slots (5 in the current setup)

The disadvantages are; Much bigger Signature, slower Speed, lower ECM strength (15%/level against 30%/level)
The Range Bonus makes this the Scorpion the preferred Fleet ECM-Boat and the Rook and Falcon the preferred Gang ECM-Boat.

The Scorpion could still use that 6th low Slot though :)
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#368 - 2013-04-16 12:52:02 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
does anyone else think the scorp having 3 bonuses is a bit odd?


Current Dominix has three, future Dominix has four. So what?


What are you on about?
domi has its drone bonus for HP/damage
drone optimal/tracking

but these are combined bonuses im talking very separate bonuses that add a lot per bonus that are unnecessary
the drone bonuses wouldn't work particularly well without the combined bonus which says more about drones lacking...

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2013-04-16 13:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Mirala Nodoka wrote:
The Scorpion is still lacking, even with the changes..

Quote:
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 8M, 5L(+1); 4 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+359) / 5500 / 6500(+1031)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 480


It is one of three battleship with 18 slots instead of 19 (the other one being the Dominix).

It is also the ONLY battleship meant for E-war and not for direct combat.
This places it into a very unique position.

Either CCP can build up onto this position or change the ship even more drastically.

The main advantages of the Scorpion over the Rook and Falcon are its increased Optimal and Falloff Range for ECM 125% at level 5), its bigger tank and its bigger number of Low Slots (5 in the current setup)

The disadvantages are; Much bigger Signature, slower Speed, lower ECM strength (15%/level against 30%/level)
The Range Bonus makes this the Scorpion the preferred Fleet ECM-Boat and the Rook and Falcon the preferred Gang ECM-Boat.

The Scorpion could still use that 6th low Slot though :)


Especially as that 15%/lvl ecm strength is enough for nothing at bs level.
While the blackbird's main target should be t1 cruisers/smaller averageing 15 base sensor strength or less .The scorpion main targets are t1 battleships/bc and t2 logistic ships averageing 20 base sensor strenght .
You can see it is a 30%+ increase in ecm resists, making the scorpion fall short in jamming(its intended job).
It is the same as large weapons would have the same dps as medium weapons,sounds bad doesnt it?

By increasing the bonus to 25%/lvl it would make the scorp's ecm strenth by 28% better than blackbird's at lvl5,
imho this is a must do to make scorpion viable at all in its job.

An ewar battleship is stinky anyway, while weapons range increase drastically from small--> med-> to large. All ewar ships uses the same modules no matter if they are frig/cruiser or battleship sized. While ewar primaly balanced for cruiser sized ships , for battleship their range is just too short. For frigs their range is too large, thats why the kitsune cant lock as far as its jammers optimal.

bottom line increase scorps ecm jammer strength bonus to 25% /lvl from 15%/lvl
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#370 - 2013-04-16 13:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
does anyone else think the scorp having 3 bonuses is a bit odd?


Current Dominix has three, future Dominix has four. So what?


What are you on about?
domi has its drone bonus for HP/damage
drone optimal/tracking

but these are combined bonuses im talking very separate bonuses that add a lot per bonus that are unnecessary
the drone bonuses wouldn't work particularly well without the combined bonus which says more about drones lacking...


Drone HP
Drone damage
Drone optimal
Drone tracking

Looks like four bonuses to me, all of which would work individually, although it's certainly fair to say that if you only picked two then the final ship wouldn't be very impressive - hence the selection of all four.

So why are you objecting to the three of the Scorpion? Four bonuses, actually: ECM Burst optimal, ECM Burst strength, ECM optimal, ECM falloff, ECM strength. Oh wait, five bonuses, one of which isn't even mentioned in the ship description. Lol

Is your objection to the text description or to the ship itself? Because I'm sure the text can be changed to make it look as if the Scorp only has two bonuses, just like the Dominix. How about "15% bonus to ECM Burst and ECM Target Jammer strength per level, 20% bonus to ECM Burst optimal and ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range per level"?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2013-04-16 13:29:45 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

Is your objection to the text description or to the ship itself? Because I'm sure the text can be changed to make it look as if the Scorp only has two bonuses, just like the Dominix. How about "15% bonus to ECM Burst and ECM Target Jammer strength per level, 20% bonus to ECM Burst optimal and ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range per level"?


you can also do it in 1 line just like 10%kinetic missile dmg /lvl and 5% other missile dmg /lvl bonuses
also you could put it into role bonus :)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#372 - 2013-04-17 10:57:02 UTC
So cruise is looking pretty good now. But will the cruise Raven be balanced with the cruise Typhoon? I'm not convinced. The Raven's missile velocity bonus is of limited utility on a cruise fit; the Typhoon's explosion velocity bonus is much preferable in a small-gang environment, although it too becomes of limited use if you have long-range webbing support.

The five medslots on the Typhoon enable viable shield fits, with the seven lows going for triple nano, triple BCS and DC, giving a Typhoon that is faster, more agile, has a smaller sig and better scan res, along with more drones and better damage application thanks to the explosion velocity bonus. The Raven is too flimsy for fleet actions, and as an attack BS you wouldn't expect it to thrive there anyway. It'll have a better tank than the shield Typhoon, but if ABCs and the Mach etc have taught us anything, it's that the best form of tank is frequently mobility.

So what's the cruise Raven's niche? Does a solution lie in the Raven, or in the Typhoon? Cut a medslot off the Typhoon to deter shield fits?
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#373 - 2013-04-17 11:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
edit : wrong topic
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#374 - 2013-04-18 07:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Gypsio III wrote:
So cruise is looking pretty good now. But will the cruise Raven be balanced with the cruise Typhoon? I'm not convinced. The Raven's missile velocity bonus is of limited utility on a cruise fit; the Typhoon's explosion velocity bonus is much preferable in a small-gang environment, although it too becomes of limited use if you have long-range webbing support.

The five medslots on the Typhoon enable viable shield fits, with the seven lows going for triple nano, triple BCS and DC, giving a Typhoon that is faster, more agile, has a smaller sig and better scan res, along with more drones and better damage application thanks to the explosion velocity bonus. The Raven is too flimsy for fleet actions, and as an attack BS you wouldn't expect it to thrive there anyway. It'll have a better tank than the shield Typhoon, but if ABCs and the Mach etc have taught us anything, it's that the best form of tank is frequently mobility.

So what's the cruise Raven's niche? Does a solution lie in the Raven, or in the Typhoon? Cut a medslot off the Typhoon to deter shield fits?


All V Skills with no Fitting: Raven
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire per level
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity per level
Cruise Missiles: 10,575 m/sec x 21 sec = 222,075m can fire further than the Typhoon and the missiles reach target faster
Torpedos: 3,375 m/sec x 9 sec = 30,375m can fire further than the Typhoon and the missiles reach target faster
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 141.25 / .08 / 99,300,000 / 11.15s
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 93,750m / 141.25mm / 7
Sensor strength: 26.40 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 420m
EHP: 30,810

All V Skills with no Fitting: Typhoon
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire per level
+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity per level
Cruise Missiles: 7,050 m/sec x 21 sec = 148,050m cant fire as far as the Raven and the missiles reach target slower
Torpedos: 2,250 m/sec x 9 sec = 20,050m cant fire as far as the Raven and the missiles reach target slower
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 162.50 / .07 / 103,600,000 / 10.66s
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81,250m / 143.75mm / 7
Sensor strength: 22.8 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350m
EHP: 29,818

The reason for the Raven not having a Explosion Radius or Explosion Velocity bonus is because it was designed to use Cruise Missiles not Torpedoes, now with the new Mid slot gained on the Raven you fit a Target Painter so that when you use Tech 2 Fury Cruise Missiles you will apply full damage to Battleships, and with the new Cruise Missile changes with Tech 2 Valkyries you push out 830dps with Fury.

The Typhoon has been designed as a Torpedo boat hence the reason for having an Explosion Velocity bonus, now that removes one problem from Torpedoes, they still have an absurd Explosion Radius, so if you run a Shield fit on your Typhoon it is still going to have a large portion of its damage mitigated, this is why armour fits will be the only real viable way to go having the Mid Slots so that you can have either of the following setups so that you can fully apply all of your Torpedo damage:
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I x1
Warp Scrambler II x1
Stasis Webifier II x1
Target Painter II x2

or

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I x1
Warp Disruptor II x1
Stasis Webifier II x2
Target Painter II x1

I understand that Armour fitting your Typhoon will make it slower or if not equal pace to the Raven but you will be able o apply full dps as apposed to a shield fit where you going to loose probably about a third of your DPS which means the Raven will be hitting you with more DPS and winning.

This all is just an example of a Typhoon and a Raven in a 1v1, so both ships are great, they will both serve their rolls in fleet with the new changes, but in a 1v1 Raven will come out on top if the Typhoon is Shield fit, but I cant say what the turn out would be like if the Typhoon is Armour fit, will need to see on the test server when they are thrown up on there.

I hopped this clarified some questions, if you have anymore queries on something i have missed just give me a reply and il see if I can point it out.

EDIT: all these examples with Cruise Missiles are with the new Cruise Missile changes.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#375 - 2013-04-18 09:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
The reason for the Raven not having a Explosion Radius or Explosion Velocity bonus is because it was designed to use Cruise Missiles not Torpedoes, now with the new Mid slot gained on the Raven you fit a Target Painter so that when you use Tech 2 Fury Cruise Missiles you will apply full damage to Battleships, and with the new Cruise Missile changes with Tech 2 Valkyries you push out 830dps with Fury.

Typhoon has been designed as a Torpedo boat hence the reason for having an Explosion Velocity bonus,


The funny thing, though, is that I don't think it'll work like that. With the current range of torps, the Typhoon will be operating inside web range and, since it can web its target, it doesn't really need the explosion velocity bonus. Instead, that bonus will be much more useful on a cruise fit operating outside web range. In contrast, the missile velocity bonus on the Raven isn't hugely useful with cruise, but it will help it use torps outside web range, particularly if torps get a bit more range.

Elsewhere you're assuming solo fits, hence your statement of requiring an armour tank on the Typhoon. This is fine for solo, but for small-gang work, the tackling roles can be handled by other ships, and indeed have to be at ranges (50-100 km) where you'd want to be using cruise, by recons.

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
so that you can have either of the following setups so that you can fully apply all of your Torpedo damage:
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I x1
Warp Scrambler II x1
Stasis Webifier II x1
Target Painter II x2

or

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I x1
Warp Disruptor II x1
Stasis Webifier II x2
Target Painter II x1


"Fully apply your torpedo damage" to what? That statement isn't meaningful unless you specify a target. In general though, I'd say that your estimates of required tackle are pessimistic. Shield BCs will take something like full damage with just a single web - certainly the Drake will, and even a shield Hurricane, with a sig of 310 m, will be taking 92% damage from torps when webbed.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#376 - 2013-04-19 14:59:20 UTC
I do not get why you kept the scorpion as an ECM battleship. it is not "happy, in it role" It is useless. Happy maybe to be left in the hanger and not blown up. As stated an ECM battleship for only one race makes it an odd ball out. Combine that with the recent nerfs to ECM, including the buff to signal strength through the new skills added, the Scorpion has become near useless.

Sure there is a very small niche for it as an ECM battleship but a blackbird can fill that role just as well at a much lower cost. The scorpion can not compete with any other battleship in a fight, ECM is just not worth what it used to be. Make it the caldari Drone boat with at least drone bandwidth 125 /Drone bay 125. that will at least make it viable for combat until the ECM issue is fixed.

I'm not sure how I feel about the changes to the raven. I regularly run level 4 missions with the raven and its tank is barely adequate. I certainly do not mind giving up a utility high for an extra mid, But I will have to test it out before I decide if that trade off was worth it. Dual heavy neuts was a nice feature, but the extra mid should be a worthwhile tradeoff.

The tiny increase in speed is not near enough to offset the reduction in the tank. the Raven barely tanks level 4 missions as it is once fit for decent DPS. it is one of the weakest battleships in the game, just very easy to train into. I fit my raven with an active tank including a Caldari Navy X-large shield booster. I only have enough cap to run it for 1.6 minutes. I have has some close calls. Now it will be even closer with a reduced tank, the tiny bit of added speed is certainly not enough for any damage mitigation. You should not be forced to fit faction gear to make a ship viable, With this nerf to the tank a lot of level 4 mission runners flying ravens are going to die.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#377 - 2013-04-20 08:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I do not get why you kept the scorpion as an ECM battleship. it is not "happy, in it role" It is useless. Happy maybe to be left in the hanger and not blown up. As stated an ECM battleship for only one race makes it an odd ball out. Combine that with the recent nerfs to ECM, including the buff to signal strength through the new skills added, the Scorpion has become near useless.

Sure there is a very small niche for it as an ECM battleship but a blackbird can fill that role just as well at a much lower cost. The scorpion can not compete with any other battleship in a fight, ECM is just not worth what it used to be. Make it the caldari Drone boat with at least drone bandwidth 125 /Drone bay 125. that will at least make it viable for combat until the ECM issue is fixed.

I'm not sure how I feel about the changes to the raven. I regularly run level 4 missions with the raven and its tank is barely adequate. I certainly do not mind giving up a utility high for an extra mid, But I will have to test it out before I decide if that trade off was worth it. Dual heavy neuts was a nice feature, but the extra mid should be a worthwhile tradeoff.

The tiny increase in speed is not near enough to offset the reduction in the tank. the Raven barely tanks level 4 missions as it is once fit for decent DPS. it is one of the weakest battleships in the game, just very easy to train into. I fit my raven with an active tank including a Caldari Navy X-large shield booster. I only have enough cap to run it for 1.6 minutes. I have has some close calls. Now it will be even closer with a reduced tank, the tiny bit of added speed is certainly not enough for any damage mitigation. You should not be forced to fit faction gear to make a ship viable, With this nerf to the tank a lot of level 4 mission runners flying ravens are going to die.


I am a Dedicated Caldari pilot, and if you change the Scorpion to a Drone boat, that is sacrilege to the Caldari lore, they are not a Drone race. If you want to change the Scorpion keep its current layout of 6 / 8 / 4 and just make it have 6 launcher hardpoints and change is skill bonuses so that it is a Torpedo boat like having Rate of Fire to Launchers and Damage Bonus and leave the Raven to what it is supposed to do which is kite with Cruise Missiles. Otherwise leave the Scorpion as it is.

As for you statement on the Raven being crappy and slow and having a terrible tank your fit is obviously not a correct one, and if your neuting rats that is the dumbest thing i have heard for a level 4 Raven. Its getting another Mid which is more tank, its gaining more speed, Cruise Missiles are being buffed by 30% what f u c k i n g more do you want, they have finally fixed the Raven into a position where its not only better for PvE but also becoming viable for PvP.

EDIT: if you want a Drone Scorpion go train and buy a Rattlesnake

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#378 - 2013-04-20 11:55:03 UTC
I had been toying with the idea of the Rokh until now. I am trained in missiles but they do not travel the speed of light like projectiles, so the hybrids seemed interesting, except for the low damage of the railguns. Now the hybrid battleship, the rokh, loses 1/5 its resists bonus, making me wonder what redeeming quality it has left and what ship will ever get me to train away from missiles ... guess I'll just stick with my carriers, ewar ships, and drone ships; at least I can appreciate the new direction of the dominix.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#379 - 2013-04-20 13:44:03 UTC
Increase Raven's agility so i can take it out to a roaming:P
Darth Saladyn
Hold Fast
#380 - 2013-04-20 16:05:17 UTC
the scorpion needs stronger bonuses towards ecm as ecm has been nerfed so much you will simply not get the impact you want from a battleship out of the scorpion. the number of slots that a scorpion will need to use to be a stong ecm ship will leave it with virtualy nothing in the way of tank. buff its ecm ability or change its role as the current incarnation is not strong enough to be competitive with the other battleships.