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[Odyssey] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

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Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2013-04-04 22:25:46 UTC
I think I will pitch this "heavy frigate" idea into a separate thread after all, eventually to see if a tankier Rifter (and others of its level) could be a fun implementation.

Indeed, giving Rifter speed is too much. Imo, Vigil and Slasher should be fastest.
Breacher (and similar) should be wicked in hurling missiles.
Just an opinion.

However, I find it imperative that we have two variants of Rifter (and others of its class) - The one we have at the moment and maybe a heavier one that can take more punishment - now don't say "That's an Assault Frigate", I'd imagine this tankier version being much slower and less agile. AF's still be the better of what Tech2 has to offer.

Regardless of all that is said above, I'm either for a tankier Rifter or a dual-damage bonus Rifter (Small Proj Turrets + Rockets) along with some negative tweaks to overall HP. It's stings should really hurt.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#342 - 2013-04-05 14:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Viqer Fell wrote:


There is nothing wrong with split weapon system ships. What there is a problem with is introducing new ships without thinking about the balancing beforehand. So glad my time invested in training for capital missiles is now wasted just to pander to the people like yourself who don't have the patience to train up for stuff.



Oh my god, stop crying.

Really.

Hell back in 2008 I trained large hybrids even though they were worthless, because I liked them and figured they'd get a buff. Guess what, they did. All that wasted training time is no longer wasted.

I trained up capital torps AS WELL AS CRUISE and fly a moros, I haven't touched a phoenix in years. You don't see me whining.

Your training time was your decision, knowing full well that you were training for a weapons system that was complete crap. If you were using a Nag over a moros these days you were either stupidly lucky to survive, or never even used it.

These "wasted SP time" arguments are terrible. To train citadels you skilled up Torps to V and Missile launcher operation to V. Both skills are very useful in countless other ship classes and races.

Your only "wasted" time is from the Citadel missile skill itself. considering CCP in the meantime has offered free SP for removing learning skills and several remaps, you are fine.


Now, stop complaining because a projectile Nag is awesome.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#343 - 2013-04-05 16:34:58 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
test server : naglfar 3 hs / 2 guns

50% special bonus to projectile damage
+
5% rate of fire level
+
5% damage bonus level

isnt that a little bit too much?

nah it is minmatar , has to be the best in its class

hmm more dmg,same or better range than than rev , no cap need , choosable dmg type , oh yeah balanced


To make it fully "balanced" i suggest reduction in jump drive capacitor usage around 50% too, on top of 3 damage bonuses, oh and maybe some extra shield boost as well. Cheers.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#344 - 2013-04-05 17:03:41 UTC
Jureth22 wrote:
test server : naglfar 3 hs / 2 guns

50% special bonus to projectile damage
+
5% rate of fire level
+
5% damage bonus level

isnt that a little bit too much?


Nag has 3 HS, 2 hardpoints. Right.
Every other dread has 3 hardpoints. That's 3 guns.

3 > 2. This means, 3 is greater than 2.

So, you have to balance it by adding a virtual gun. So you give the ship a 50% bonus to damage.

1 gun
1 gun
____
2 guns


1.5 gun (adding .50)
1.5 gun (adding .50)
____
3 guns


See how that works?


That now leaves you with 2 bonuses. Since the guns don't use cap there are no other modifications to make.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#345 - 2013-04-05 17:09:05 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
test server : naglfar 3 hs / 2 guns

50% special bonus to projectile damage
+
5% rate of fire level
+
5% damage bonus level

isnt that a little bit too much?

nah it is minmatar , has to be the best in its class

hmm more dmg,same or better range than than rev , no cap need , choosable dmg type , oh yeah balanced




Did you checked the EHP of the naglfar against the revelation before typing this crap?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#346 - 2013-04-05 17:12:33 UTC
Viqer Fell wrote:
Ivoto wrote:
Insha'Fozzie!!!

Rebalance God and loved by all!

Gives me a reason to check out the Nag, now that it wont be a multiple weapon platform. Oh yeah, and its:

V
E
R
T
I
C
A
L


There is nothing wrong with split weapon system ships. What there is a problem with is introducing new ships without thinking about the balancing beforehand. So glad my time invested in training for capital missiles is now wasted just to pander to the people like yourself who don't have the patience to train up for stuff.

Sorry Fozzie but this change reflects the continued insistence on dumbing down the game and pushing it towards being just a generic MMO with generic MMO mechanics and styles. There is a good reason EvE has survived 10 years and not died like most other generic MMO's. Becoming more like the failed opposition is not how you develop the game.



Ther eis a problem. A ship with split weaposn that is competitive without damage mods becomes very weak after yuo add several damage mods comapred to the competition using same 3 damage mods.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2013-04-05 22:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
test server : naglfar 3 hs / 2 guns

50% special bonus to projectile damage
+
5% rate of fire level
+
5% damage bonus level

isnt that a little bit too much?

nah it is minmatar , has to be the best in its class

hmm more dmg,same or better range than than rev , no cap need , choosable dmg type , oh yeah balanced




Did you checked the EHP of the naglfar against the revelation before typing this crap?


you mean without implant set? hmm yup naglfar better ehp, better boost , faster ,locks faster, cap recharge more or less same cap recharge even with a cap booster on the rev... , so if you dont count in the broken slave set then the naglfar will be superior to the rev in everything , other than most people prefer armor tank over shield, and imho an average dread pilot doesnt use slave set anyway
well insta ammo change is good for the rev or no ammo use, but i dont think that makes up for the other things

or you could compare it to lol phoenix with the useless cap missiles , doing more dmg than the phoenix, oh and actually better at choosing dmg type, for a little less ehp , the phoenix is better at 2 thing : cheaper :D, and maybe primaried last

the best part naglfar will hardly every be able to fit anything that uses up his cpu/pg, yet the phoenix has cpu problems .... balanced

im glad i sold my rev already :P time to buy a naglfar

ohoh i forgot to add that armor tank is better vs neutralizers
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2013-04-05 22:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Meduza13 wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
test server : naglfar 3 hs / 2 guns

50% special bonus to projectile damage
+
5% rate of fire level
+
5% damage bonus level

isnt that a little bit too much?

nah it is minmatar , has to be the best in its class

hmm more dmg,same or better range than than rev , no cap need , choosable dmg type , oh yeah balanced


To make it fully "balanced" i suggest reduction in jump drive capacitor usage around 50% too, on top of 3 damage bonuses, oh and maybe some extra shield boost as well. Cheers.

yup it is matar after all , and we all know they use hit and run doctrine , and also support shield boosts on some ships, also it should be able to move when sieged and probably sign tank too ,and be able to kite enemy dreads fighting in falloff is too much hinderance
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#349 - 2013-04-05 23:28:21 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
Viqer Fell wrote:
Why are you so obsessed with making all ships across the races generically the same?

Getting sick of seeing Dev after Dev push us towards jumping into Generic Cruiser or Generic Frigate and now Generic Dreadnought. It's like the art police who demand every ship was symmetrical.







Fully agreed, thats exactly what ive said couple days ago.


I've also said the same many, many times.

+1 bump

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#350 - 2013-04-05 23:29:47 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
I think I will pitch this "heavy frigate" idea into a separate thread after all, eventually to see if a tankier Rifter (and others of its level) could be a fun implementation.

Indeed, giving Rifter speed is too much. Imo, Vigil and Slasher should be fastest.
Breacher (and similar) should be wicked in hurling missiles.
Just an opinion.

However, I find it imperative that we have two variants of Rifter (and others of its class) - The one we have at the moment and maybe a heavier one that can take more punishment - now don't say "That's an Assault Frigate", I'd imagine this tankier version being much slower and less agile. AF's still be the better of what Tech2 has to offer.

Regardless of all that is said above, I'm either for a tankier Rifter or a dual-damage bonus Rifter (Small Proj Turrets + Rockets) along with some negative tweaks to overall HP. It's stings should really hurt.



The heavy frigate you are looking for is called the stabber.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#351 - 2013-04-06 01:03:13 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Rifter needs some serious increase in tank. Well before you can look at adding damage. OR! A serious increase in speed and damage projection and 1 more mid slot.


- killz


You just retired the breacher and slasher, well done.

The breacher/slasher/rifter are all filling more or less the same niches and that just doesn't work very well..


F*ck the Breacher and Slasher.

I can accept a ship is bad or useless because that is a reality. I DONT NEED A SHIP TO BE GOOD. Unlike so many in this game that espouse concepts like "fair". What a joke. CCP changed things because of that silly notion. Things will always be "broken" because people cannot accept somethings are just inferior. Somethings have to be.

With that said.

I want the Rifter to be GOOD because I like the way it looks v0v


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#352 - 2013-04-06 02:25:52 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Rifter needs some serious increase in tank. Well before you can look at adding damage. OR! A serious increase in speed and damage projection and 1 more mid slot.


- killz


You just retired the breacher and slasher, well done.

The breacher/slasher/rifter are all filling more or less the same niches and that just doesn't work very well..


F*ck the Breacher and Slasher.

I can accept a ship is bad or useless because that is a reality. I DONT NEED A SHIP TO BE GOOD. Unlike so many in this game that espouse concepts like "fair". What a joke. CCP changed things because of that silly notion. Things will always be "broken" because people cannot accept somethings are just inferior. Somethings have to be.

With that said.

I want the Rifter to be GOOD because I like the way it looks v0v


- killz

I want it to be good while not doing the exact same thing as the other two minnie frigs.. Give it fittings for arties and an optimal bonus!

I would love that :P

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#353 - 2013-04-06 05:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#354 - 2013-04-06 06:04:26 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag slip weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.


This. Fix Capital Missiles/Torps and the Nag would be fine.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-04-07 15:01:44 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.



why have 2 different weapons that perform sub-par when you can have a single system that performs optimally?


It's tactically sound, and for example why a Paladin doesn't have a version with 75mm... because a single battery of equally effective weaponry is much better to have.


Just like the worthless turret on the Phoenix.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#356 - 2013-04-07 21:01:26 UTC
Frankly split weapon systems have always been crap.

Because you need to use damage mods to boost the performance of both weapon systems, while on other systems you only have to boost one weapon system.

Meaning you need to use twice as much damage mods to get the same amount of dps increase to the ship using only one weapon system.

Removing capital missile on Nag and making it a pure gun boat is a very welcomed change.

Capital Missiles suck and is the reason why I trained for a Revelation(before Moros got buffed) instead of a Phoenix despite already having Caldari BS V.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#357 - 2013-04-09 00:09:59 UTC
The change to the rifter seems comparitively small compared to how weak it now is. How about giving it some extra speed and reducing sig slightly so it is just slightly lesser than the slasher.
Black Garius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-04-09 14:14:17 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.




EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#359 - 2013-04-09 14:46:14 UTC
Black Garius wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.




EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.


I have to agree with this but didn't want to say anything as everyone seemed really happy with this change. I was training towards dual weapon systems and really looking forward to reaching the pinnacle of dual weapon systems which is flying the Naglfr. Is there not some way this can be reworked so that dual weapon systems actually work as I think it takes a lot of flavour out the game.

Now I have lost the interesting feeling of training towards the ship as I know I will end up in a cookie cutter projectile Naglfr similar to all the other dreads. Also the pinnacle of missile systems is surely the capital launchers, and I was really looking forward to firing some of these beasts from my Naglfr. Surely they can easily be reworked so they are effective. Perhaps they have a longer flight time and damage projection that other weapon systems, but they could do a degree more damage to make up for the fact.
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#360 - 2013-04-09 15:19:19 UTC
Black Garius wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.




EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.

No the Nagalfar has a unique broken point. Split weapons systems on any ship is stupid and be thrown away on all ships immediately.