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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1941 - 2011-10-13 13:30:16 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
I have a question for the the community, CCP, the Goon/TEST leadership, and Goon/TEST CSM's. I'm looking for a serious answer here in spite of the implied troll in my last line. So here goes:

Why should 20 billion isk worth of Hurricanes be the most versatile forces capable of dealing with support, BS fleets, capital fleets, supercapital fleets and sov warfare AND 20 billion isk worth of supercarrier be useful at killing only capitals and sov structures and only so when in larger numbers far surpassing 20 billion isk worth of ships on field AND they must be accompanied by yet another group of ships solely tasked with supporting them?


That's an easy question to answer.

20 billion isk spent on 2 or more ships should easily always be more flexible than 20 billion isk spent on one ship.

20 billion isk on hurricanes? Hell you have enough isk there to include hurricanes suited for every type of anomoly possible, mining, salvaging and even remote rep hurricanes if you felt like it.




I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#1942 - 2011-10-13 13:37:06 UTC
Also, money should substitute manpower only to a degree. It's ok that a very expensive ship replaces 5 or 10 people in lesser ships. But no ship should be the equivalent of 100+ people in lesser ships.

You should be able to beat superior numbers by having better tactics and a larger brain, not by spending just a lot more money.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1943 - 2011-10-13 13:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
L'ouris wrote:
Thanks for being candid. I was really hoping I was wrong though :(

It appears that the more things change, the more they stay the same. With any luck we will get a change at somepoint that lets us attempt an assault on a super fleet w/o just needing more supers.

The one degree of freedom I currently see is that with the ECM burst fix, sieged dreads will keep their locks against Remote ECM spam. And supers are not that good at dictating range...

So one could arguably engage a super fleet with dreads with a steadier dps output than now. You will hemorraghe dreads like a stuck pig while doing it, but if you are willing to go for a suicide dread op, the option will be there. The question will be if someone is willing to try it.

Edit:
clarification: with the currently proposed devblog dreads, not the redux dreads from page 95ish
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1944 - 2011-10-13 13:48:57 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
L'ouris wrote:
What about these changes encourages a more diverse fleet fight?

Encourage? Nothing encouraging about it.

These changes do basically three things:
- kitchen sink roamings that accidentally stumble upon a ratting supercap have a better chance of killing it
- force subcapital deployment alongside supers by making subcaps as immune to supers as possible without using the word immune
- they fiddle with a few fleet-fight performance knobs to see what happens, reminiscent of the equipment tests run in chernobyl in 1986

Now if we look at it, what is actually the problem with supers? They are designed to be cap killers. And they are undeniably good at it. So good in fact, that fielding caps against them currently is ritual suicide. But that is not the fault of supers - that would be like blaming a vagabond for being fast.
So, now that we have ruled out engaging them with regular caps, lets look at subcaps. Titans take a special place here since their doomsday can take out key infrastructure ships like fleet commands in a very reliable way. The other thing at least for turret titans is basic tracking mechanics which guarantees them to at least have some effect if the fc sets them up correctly.

Going on to supercarriers, what about them? Their dps? No. Since the last round of fighterbomber changes a fighterbomber hits an abaddon for 8 to 15 damage per volley. That's not even enough to make your twitchy finger broadcast for reps - it adds up if you look at 250 scs, yes (75k), but you just got hit by a 30 million HP damage volley, there are bound to be scratches (0.25% effective damage!). Their best bet is somewhere in the fighters / sentries / heavies ballpark in which they deal a little above twice as much dps as fleet battleship inside 60km control range. So the subcapital damage output of 250 supercarriers is 550 battleships worth, hardly something the cluster has never seen before.

If you've ever engaged 550 battleships, you know there is simply no tanking that inside their engagement zone. There is not. Accept it. Embrace it. But (assuming even numbers which already means you failed in setting up an unfair fight) you get a steady decline of incoming dps as ships explode. With the EHP of supercaps, their dps decline over time is always shallower than any subcap forces'. The EHP in turn they received because they used to fold in 20 seconds to anything looking at them the wrong way and because they are actually needed in cap fights which are a lot more static than subcap fights once they are on.

All of this combined results in the "supers are the only counter to supers" mantra. So, what is CCP hoping to achieve with these changes? The -20% HP change makes the dps reduction steeper, without having them implode against 20 battleships like they used to. With the drone changes I assume they hope that supercarrier pilots will go for 10/10 or 15/15 splits between bombers and regular fighters. This reduces the damage output of them against both capital and subcapital targets and removing the titan's headshot aimbot. So, less dps output and steeper over time dps reduction.
Will this give subcapital fleets a better chance? Yes. Will the odds-improval be enough to stop the whining or fix eve? No. Will turning these screws even more fix eve? No, it will just break supers again. With their destructible dps without the endless-waves feature that saved the Dominix through the ages they will already be borderline.

The real core problem is not that supers are designed as cap killers. Giving subcaps better odds is all fine, but subcaps are not the designed weightclass in which to engage in. The problem is that no other capital is actually designed to fight capitals - short story short, fix broken dreads.
Siege weapons were fine in the days of RMR and served their purpose while sov was linked to POS. Newsflash, that's history. POS are engaged to annoy your enemy, force fights and flush a few isks into your wallet. They are an opportunity target now, not a tightly regulated core game mechanic.

So, dreads redux:
- remove the 2 target limit that was imposed on dreads because of station hugging moros pilots. supers take care of that problem all over new eden reliably and fast
- remove the remote rep restriction
- soften the tracking penalty in siege considerably
- switch the local rep boost in siege to +120/140/160/180/200% hull, armor and shield hp depending on dread level
- no warping / docking while in siege, but movement does not have to be restricted
- siege timer at 5 minutes is probably still a good idea

What do we achieve with this? We get an actual supportable, fully insured and comparatively easy to get into damage backbone for regular capital fleets that is not just breakfast any more. You will not come out of engaging a 250 supercapital fleet with a 175/75 dread/carrier fleet (again, failure to set up an unfair fight) scott free and you imho never should - but a considerable amount of supers will die, your losses will be easier to replace (isk, build time and build capcity wise) and you actually have - depending on actual fleet compositions and tactics - maybe even a shot at holding the field / forcing the retreat (wiping 250 supers with even numbers should for the time being be unrealistic I think). But this could actually generate nice combined forces fights.

As Titan proliferation increases, the doomsday will probably have to be looked at again. Then again, engaging 250 titans feels like it should hurt by sound alone, yet how much remains the question.

PS: by the way, what is it with all that 'no remote rep' nonsense. Are you all imprisoned in motsu or a 2005 timebubble? active tank stockholm syndrome?

PPS: and fix capital shield reload mechanics by making it like armor Blink
Not even a sandbox needs passive (super)capital shield tanks


Lots of good analysis and suggestions here.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1945 - 2011-10-13 14:05:46 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Ok is it just me or do alot of this changes suck for no good reason?

1.) Carriers have not been a problem for some time now why screw them over now? There much softer targets then SC.

2,) Dreads need to be able to hit other moving cap ships when in seige So slow down other cap ships alittle and inc seaige tracking alittle.

3.) Change Moros bonus to 5%dmg inc or add in a 5% cap reduction per level to Capital guns. Though it is not going to matter much as SC will still burn them down just as fast and I have no problem with that as its cap on cap action but if they fix the SC speed tanking the dreads then at least they can now go down fighting.

4.) Logoff timer this is the best change here great job.Big smile

5.) Carrier and SC new Drone bays should be renamed Fighter bay and both giving new Fighter bandwiths. Then add in a Navy dominix sized drone bay and bandwith for normal drones. I dont think that would be to overpowering for sub cap ships. This lets the logistice Carriers and SC's to field repair drones and yes other drones as well but in limited numbers i.e. at the limit of 125 bandwith.

Thoughs are just my own ideals and my hold no water.Ugh



Honestly, as a Moros pilot, the current changes are fine. I am fine with losing some cap stability to gain the DPS a blaster dread should have (This is a 33% dps increase if I understand correctly). Tracking increases or vastly changing the sig of a SC and Titan would be welcome.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1946 - 2011-10-13 14:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Karim alRashid wrote:


Not been a problem because they were overshadowed by the bigger super-carrier problem.

The "Capships Online" slogan appeared well before super-cap buff in 2009, you should remember carrier blobs and fighter swarms of 2007-2008.

Fighters should be changed so that when fit for DPS, carriers can apply about 50-60% of their theoretical fighter DPS output to a stationary battleship (a class lower) and 100% to a moving (super)cap.

Neither changing their signature resolution to 400 nor leaving them as is is a balanced solution for all fighters.

Perhaps any changes can be postponed, but carriers should be watched very carefully in the following 3-4 months, lest they become the new battleships (again).


Fighters need to be fixed anyway so the short range ones can track a stationary target while orbiting... certain ones cannot.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1947 - 2011-10-13 14:09:23 UTC
Le Cardinal wrote:
So much talk about the Hel. Fix ALL the shieldsupers. EFT warriors here keep comparing Shieldtankers and armortankers and it looks pretty even on paper, but when shieldtankers jump into a battle they loose a very large portion of their shield. Now someone choke up a good argument for why that is fair. The amount of armortanked supercaps compared to shieldtankers alone is a very good example of this.

This has been adressed by people for years and never been properly fixed.


Earlier I suggested that Slave implants buff all HP (Structure, Armor and Shield), while Crystal implants buff all active Tanks (Structure, Armor, and Shield). Given the way fleet bonuses are applied, I have also suggested that a Wyvern with the new slaves will have less EHP on jump in than an aeon, but significantly more if you want to rep it up. Hel fix: 45 fbs/fighters in drone bay (and EHP buff, but not so that its ehp competes with anything other than the Nyx).
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1948 - 2011-10-13 14:11:42 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Ok is it just me or do alot of this changes suck for no good reason?

1.) Carriers have not been a problem for some time now why screw them over now? There much softer targets then SC.

2,) Dreads need to be able to hit other moving cap ships when in seige So slow down other cap ships alittle and inc seaige tracking alittle.

3.) Change Moros bonus to 5%dmg inc or add in a 5% cap reduction per level to Capital guns. Though it is not going to matter much as SC will still burn them down just as fast and I have no problem with that as its cap on cap action but if they fix the SC speed tanking the dreads then at least they can now go down fighting.

4.) Logoff timer this is the best change here great job.Big smile

5.) Carrier and SC new Drone bays should be renamed Fighter bay and both giving new Fighter bandwiths. Then add in a Navy dominix sized drone bay and bandwith for normal drones. I dont think that would be to overpowering for sub cap ships. This lets the logistice Carriers and SC's to field repair drones and yes other drones as well but in limited numbers i.e. at the limit of 125 bandwith.

Thoughs are just my own ideals and my hold no water.Ugh



Honestly, as a Moros pilot, the current changes are fine. I am fine with losing some cap stability to gain the DPS a blaster dread should have (This is a 33% dps increase if I understand correctly). Tracking increases or vastly changing the sig of a SC and Titan would be welcome.


yeh but the max 50km yourll be able to hit currently, still leaves a blaster moros worthless in all but 1 maybe 2 situations. it cant even hit a large pos properly at 28km

OMG when can i get a pic here

Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1949 - 2011-10-13 14:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Death2all Supercaps wrote:


because 20 billion isk in hurricans is over 250 people
250 people x 15 dollars a month = CCP making it rain.

20 billion isk in a supercarrier is 1 person
1 person RMTing isk with his bots that go unpunished = 0 $ for CCP

What would you do if you were ccp?


Edit: still waiting for CCP Tallest to comment more. been 60 pages bro


Meh, the real argument is diminishing returns.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1950 - 2011-10-13 14:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Jazzmyn wrote:
TIME TO GET REAL WITH CAPITAL BALANCING !

...

1) make dreads able to shoot slow moving (>100m/s) battleship sized targets with their capital turrets, even if they don’t make full damage they should be able to cause some trouble to a slow moving BS. --> Improve dread primary guns tracking.

...


Get a friend to web the BS for you if you really want to shoot the bs with the guns. Have fun with locking time...

Tracking SCs and Titans is the real issue in question
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1951 - 2011-10-13 14:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
War Kitten wrote:


That's an easy question to answer.

20 billion isk spent on 2 or more ships should easily always be more flexible than 20 billion isk spent on one ship.

20 billion isk on hurricanes? Hell you have enough isk there to include hurricanes suited for every type of anomoly possible, mining, salvaging and even remote rep hurricanes if you felt like it.






Canes are OP in comparison to all other BCs, but I agree with the basic sentiment (diminishing returns).
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1952 - 2011-10-13 14:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Smoking Blunts wrote:


yeh but the max 50km yourll be able to hit currently, still leaves a blaster moros worthless in all but 1 maybe 2 situations. it cant even hit a large pos properly at 28km


Fit 2x Optimal Scripts, use plutonium ammo.

<---Has shot many, many POS with a Blaster Moros (I have also hit targets while in siege at 120 km in the same ship, hits at 130 were really pushing it though). Also, the rail Moros will actually be a decent choice next a Rev now, though like the Nyx vs Aeon situation, the Rev will still have the EHP advantage over the Moros.

I just want to see a boost to capital self reps (50% would not be OP tbh, its not like a rev can tank a rev at this point in time...)

EDIT: FYI, I use the blaster Moros in w-space, which should also be considered when balancing given that, after all, it is one of the few places where dreads are actually used now...
Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#1953 - 2011-10-13 14:29:59 UTC
For you, dear Sir, I offer a 101 in forum posting which comes absolutely free:

Rule #1: Don't answer to yourself. If two of your posts stand next to each other in a thread, you're doing it wrong
Rule #2: Don't quote entire posts

If you combined these two basic rules, you end up with a single post that actually contains more than one line of new content. Awesome!
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#1954 - 2011-10-13 14:33:04 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:

...
The one degree of freedom I currently see is that with the ECM burst fix, sieged dreads will keep their locks against Remote ECM spam. And supers are not that good at dictating range...

So one could arguably engage a super fleet with dreads with a steadier dps output than now. You will hemorraghe dreads like a stuck pig while doing it, but if you are willing to go for a suicide dread op, the option will be there. The question will be if someone is willing to try it.

Edit:
clarification: with the currently proposed devblog dreads, not the redux dreads from page 95ish


It would be better from my perspective for this patch to fix our existing tools to deal with super fleets ( Void bomb buff, Dread buff )

and then just appease the masses with an actual rebalance of the supers ( shield implant sets, shield mechanics, minnie caps ) etc.

The problem with the Super fleets in my experience was simply a lack of acceptable tools to deal with them.

We need more degrees of freedom.

With more options at our disposal, FC's might demonstrate that the ships are not 'that' overpowered.

Thoughts?


Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1955 - 2011-10-13 14:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Floydd Heywood wrote:
For you, dear Sir, I offer a 101 in forum posting which comes absolutely free:

Rule #1: Don't answer to yourself. If two of your posts stand next to each other in a thread, you're doing it wrong
Rule #2: Don't quote entire posts

If you combined these two basic rules, you end up with a single post that actually contains more than one line of new content. Awesome!


CCP has made it easier to hit quote and then post with the removal of the timer. Furthermore, every time i spend the time to do that, I have a good chance of the forums ganking my post. Also, every time I try to remove and organize quotes, I **** it up. Dont worry, in a couple days I will probably stop posting again. I will try to go back and get rid of middle quotes, but expect me to screw up there...


^^Excuses for laziness

@ poster below me Fighters are not being nerfed, see first post. Now if only the short range ones would be fixed...
Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#1956 - 2011-10-13 14:46:51 UTC
The fighter Nerf might be a bit much especially with the removal of the drone bay.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1957 - 2011-10-13 14:52:03 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:


yeh but the max 50km yourll be able to hit currently, still leaves a blaster moros worthless in all but 1 maybe 2 situations. it cant even hit a large pos properly at 28km


Fit 2x Optimal Scripts, use plutonium ammo.

<---Has shot many, many POS with a Blaster Moros (I have also hit targets while in siege at 120 km in the same ship, hits at 130 were really pushing it though). Also, the rail Moros will actually be a decent choice next a Rev now, though like the Nyx vs Aeon situation, the Rev will still have the EHP advantage over the Moros.

I just want to see a boost to capital self reps (50% would not be OP tbh, its not like a rev can tank a rev at this point in time...)

EDIT: FYI, I use the blaster Moros in w-space, which should also be considered when balancing given that, after all, it is one of the few places where dreads are actually used now...


i take it your mid are sebo's and tracking comps then?

2 tracking comps, range scrips and iron. optimal is 78 +31. rail moros is the choice 90% of teh time outside a wormhole. and tbh the changes will not get me back in what effectivly is a kiting ship now

OMG when can i get a pic here

Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#1958 - 2011-10-13 14:56:17 UTC
I dont think that 20% ehp loss would change fact that supercaps are so hard to kill now. The way i see it - nyx having ehp of 8-10 dreads is more or less fine but if you count in comandship bonuses, erebus, slave set - you get 15-20 dread equevalent in ehp. Which you can rep with any number of triage carriers. And most of supercap potential to enlarge its hp lies in rigs - here you get 45-60% more to your already wast main tanking buffer. Come to think about it - having bs sized module give same % of armor to a battleship and titan - feels quite wrong.
So i think instead of just cutting base hp of supercaps it may be better to cut down their potential to become 3-5 times wider in terms of ehp - one way is to look at hp buffer rigs, but it may be also a good idea to see that supercaps while being immune to e-war - be also "immune" to gang bonuses and pirate imp. sets.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1959 - 2011-10-13 15:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Smoking Blunts wrote:


i take it your mid are sebo's and tracking comps then?

2 tracking comps, range scrips and iron. optimal is 78 +31. rail moros is the choice 90% of teh time outside a wormhole. and tbh the changes will not get me back in what effectivly is a kiting ship now


(That dread is actually all meta 2 / faction fit)

The following are comparisons of T2 fit Dreads (Moros and Revelation):

All 5s, 3x damage mods for long ranged guns (no tracking mods in atm, using t1 ammo, though it is actually economical to use faction on rev) now:

Moros - 3483 at 60+30, 1451 at 192+30
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Moros (1.47x) - 5120 at 50+30, 2132 at 192+30

Moros (Blasters) - 6866 at 19+19, 3123 at 60+19
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
Moros New (Blasters) (1.47x) - 10,093 at 19+19, 4590 at 60+19

Rev (Beam) - 3743 at 50+40, 1560 at 160+40
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Rev (Beam) (1.1x) - 4117 at 50+40, 1716 at 160+40

Rev (Pulse) - 6222 DPS at 23+13, 2592 at 75+13
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Rev (Pulse) (1.1x) - 6844 at 23+13, 2851 at 75+13

Tracking Comparison (Sieged):
Rail - 0.0012
Blaster - 0.00338
Beam - 0.0014
Pulse - 0.00253

Capacitor comparison:
ATM, the blasters use much more cap, and will use any more, the changes to long range weapons, however, put the rails using almost the same cap as the rev's guns use.

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336

I would say that the rail Moros is clearly superior to the beam Revelation

Moros Base Cap - +57.5
3 Rails 3 Damage Mods - -77.5
3 Blasters 3 Damage Mods - -92.3
New:
3 Rails 3 Damage Mods - -103.3
3 Blasters 3 Damage Mods - -123.1

Revelation Base Cap - +57.5
3 Beams 3 Damage Mods - -105
3 Pulses 3 Damage Mods - -62.7

Range Modifiers:
1x T2 TC w/ Optimal: (1.15x)+(1.3x)
2x T2 TC w/ Optimal: (1.30x)+(1.64x)

I am liking the look of the rail, regardless of potential cap issues. (Getting good at avoiding ganked posts \o/, copy-pasta ftw)

Aside from a long range fight with short ranged guns, it seems to me that the Moros is going to be a winner. Not complaining, mind you, I just don't like everyone complaining about the Moros being nerfed until CCP gives it some insane bonus, then screws it over in a year when it is OP. ALL dreads need a EHP buff and a larger damage buff. At the same time, all capital armor mods need to be buffed to keep up with the Moros changes (1.5x multiplier for the current notes), especially considering that active tanking mods on capitals are already pretty ******.

Edit:

Sader Rykane wrote:
The fighter Nerf might be a bit much especially with the removal of the drone bay.


They retracted that change, just have yet to edit the blog.
Judge Renovatio
Texas Roughnecks
#1960 - 2011-10-13 15:28:24 UTC
I never reply to posts but need to insert my 1½ Cents!

Nerf on Supercaps - Some balance would be nice, but these ships are expensive and should be hard to kill.
Loggoffski - GOOD Change

Nerfing fighters on regular carriers - SUCKS.

From reading this thread. I tend to wonder if Obama has taken over the reigns at CCP and has proclaimed;

Dear Long Time Dedicated Players.
You have worked hard, you have been dedicated and built your fortune and your following. And for this we are eternally grateful. But it is time we take away from you so the suffering poor masses that don't want to work hard have more.


The only real change I see any of this making is the return of the sub-cap blob and the biggest blob wins.



And now for the stupid question portion of my post.

"Is there a mechanism in place to impeach the entire CSM?"