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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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yugi272
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1361 - 2011-10-11 17:29:20 UTC
So make a buff on carriers which would buff the fighters the way they are now prenerf. And just go with the changes on SC as you will now :P
Or make it like a penalty like destroyers have, which would affect SC using fighters and bombers.
Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#1362 - 2011-10-11 17:29:50 UTC
Great blog, especially after the fighter nerf is taken out :)

Of course it's hard for the supercap pilots who invested a lot of time and/or money to get a pwnmobile and are now being reduced once more to just a part of a collective instead of masters of the universe. No one likes having his power taken away. But they have to suffer so that EVE can be fixed for the other 99% who don't fly supercaps.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1363 - 2011-10-11 17:33:45 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Have you ever sat in a mothership and tried to fend off subcaps? Two HIC's that know what they do can't be removed by a single mothership pilot. I usually flew my motherships with 3 officer neuts and an ECM burst, with ecm drones, obviously full flight of Fighters/FB's etc.. theoreticly: 2-3 HIC's that rotate ongrid bm's/warps, and rotate keeping their points, all staying at well enough range from me to keep their point up but make my drones suffer from travel time.. they could technicly keep me there indefinately.

Assuming this is lowsec, I could probably hope to get max align, then hit ECM burst and warp off. This situation requires the HICs not to bump me ofc, which they probably won't with just 2-3 of them and bouncing the drones between them. But they could easily maintain my three neuts and disable my ecm drones. A single HIC that gets attacked by Fighters (even if neuted) will just warp off and warp back in. He'll even tank them for a decent while.

"clear floor" only happens when the HIC pilots set orbit on the mom, stay on field, with their focused script up (or bubble in null, so they can't warp themselves) and don't communicate with the other HIC pilots to make sure there's always at least one point up. Those pilots don't deserve a kill.


Agro from fighters, neuts, ecm burst, jump. Problem solved. None of the hics will keep lock without eccm and none i know of can tackle 2000 dps under neuts. Problem solved.


* >70% cap. (hint; you were a) probably not at max cap when fight start, more likely you just cynoed in and are low, b) remote ECM burst suck ALOT of cap, stupendous amounts c) your own neuts, even tho quite low suckage yes)
* Theoretical dps is not real dps, ****** HIC pilots you got there bro.
* Injectors > neuts for a good portion of time. Look at 3 officer heavy cycle time, it just takes 2 HIC's to easily overcome it.
This is the fourth time I teach you game mechanics, getting to the point where I should realise you're a successful troll. Twisted

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Jaggins
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1364 - 2011-10-11 17:34:33 UTC
These changes sound pretty good as a start. I am most pleased by the change to logoffski.

I would like to add my voice to concerns about Dreads:

No drones is fine, thanks for shortening siege time.

Please look at tracking while in siege. I also feel a damage increase could really get interesting results in revitalizing a currently underused ship class.
trademeyourmoneys
billionaire boyz club
#1365 - 2011-10-11 17:35:23 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Great blog, especially after the fighter nerf is taken out :)

Of course it's hard for the supercap pilots who invested a lot of time and/or money to get a pwnmobile and are now being reduced once more to just a part of a collective instead of masters of the universe. No one likes having his power taken away. But they have to suffer so that EVE can be fixed for the other 99% who don't fly supercaps.



Everyone has access to supercaps, it really doesnt take long to train/make isk. I spent around 2 months making isk to get enough to get a super if i wanted one(this is personally just me,alliance didnt help at all) as eve has been around since 2003, If you are saying only 1% of eve can afford to fly a super, you are wrong.

A large amount of ccp customers live in high sec and will be uneffected by these changes. Saying 99% of eve wants supers nerfed is wrong, adapt or die.
thebarry
7-2 Ronin
#1366 - 2011-10-11 17:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: thebarry
I like these changes a lot, but POS Gunning will also have to be rebalanced IMO.

The 5 minute timer on dreads will make it pretty much impossible for pos gunners to kill them. Previously we relied on the 10 minute siege timer to give us time to kill the dreads(about 2-3 minutes to empty its cap with 3 neuts, than another 4+ minutes to finish it off with the large guns). While it was very difficult even before, I believe now with a 5 minute siege timer it may literally be impossible for any pos, regardless of its configuration and number of gunners, to destroy a dread that's fitted a certain way(huge buffer) before it comes out of siege and gets repped up by triage carrier(s).
Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1367 - 2011-10-11 17:47:37 UTC
thebarry wrote:
I like these changes a lot, but POS Gunning will also have to be rebalanced IMO.

The 5 minute timer on dreads will make it pretty much impossible for pos gunners to kill them. Previously we relied on the 10 minute siege timer to give us time to kill the dreads(about 2-3 minutes to empty its cap with 3 neuts, than another 4+ minutes to finish it off with the large guns). While it was very difficult even before, I believe now with a 5 minute siege timer it may literally be impossible for any pos, regardless of its configuration and number of gunners, to destroy a dread that's fitted a certain way(think perfect fleet booster, t2 trimarks, slaves) before it comes out of siege and gets repped up by triage carrier(s).



You literally just said EXACTLY why CCP needed to change the mechanic of the Dread and it's Siege timer. Dreads have long been useless due to the 10 minute Siege, and the fact that their tracking is pure shite* in Siege mode.

They are trying to bring them back to the field as a viable option. But fortunately for you, the dreads damage is still crapola on a stick. lol removal of 5 drones...whatever. They buff damage from 625% to 700% in Siege. Okay. Great. Still won't mean much.

Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu
miningtool
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1368 - 2011-10-11 17:49:13 UTC
supers caps with all the implants and x-types ehp is as follow (not including fleet boosts)

Aeon 55m ehp
Hel 30m ehp
Nyx 36m ehp
Wyvern 43m ehp

now if you neut them out

Aeon 21m ehp
Hel 7.7m ehp
Nyx 15.3m ehp
Wyvern 9.4m ehp

logged off but not nueted

Aeon 19m ehp
Hel 23m ehp
Nyx 16m ehp
Wyvern 25m ehp

now if they are logged off and nueted their ehp is

Aeon 6.5m ehp
Hel 4.5m ehp
Nyx 6.3m ehp
Wyvern 4.4m ehp


The only real changes that are necessary are the doomsday, super caps being limited to fighters/bombers and the log off mechanic.

ECM BURST IN LOW SEC NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT ITS BROKEN!!!!

Changing their drone bay to barely be better than a thanatos on a wyvern is just silly!


Eve is about figuring out how to counter what your enemy sends at you for instance supers are killed by nuets

Spoiler alert: the key to killing super caps is turning their hardeners off

a Wyvern with hardeners has 43m ehp
a Wyvern without hardeners has 12m ehp

so lets say you field a 100 man fleet which anyone who is taking on super caps should be able to field and its a easy number. also your fielding hurricanes because they are cheap.

canes deal 500dps and nuet out 360gj every 12 seconds per ship

so in 36 seconds you turn the hardeners off on any super cap with this fleet

in another 240 seconds you would melt the Wyvern off the field with 50k dps killing 20b with 4b isk worth of ships


Now if the Wyvern had tried logging off it would only have 4m ehp because you lose skill bonuses and implants so it would only take 80 seconds to melt it off the field with a 100man cane fleet


Changes that need to happen


  • hel rebalanced to be more inline with other supers a straight 20% to all won't really help
  • the way armor bonuses are applied is drastically better than shield bonuses
  • ECM Burst in low sec is so broken its not even funny.
  • Something to make the levithan more on par with other titans fleet boosting wise. For instance the levi gives you 37.5 shields that you have to rep up before it takes effect and if you're dropping into a hostile fleet that is worthless while the erebus avatar and rags bonuses are immediately applied
  • DREAD tracking carriers and supers should not be able to speed tank dreads
  • logoff mechanic
  • subcap doomsdays
  • Supers fighters/bombers only


Those changes would cover everything and I would not have to let me super account go inactive because the ship is completely useless




Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1369 - 2011-10-11 17:50:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Misanth wrote:
iulixxi wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Already posted here twice, how I killed six Fighters for a Nyx while I was alone in a Nighthawk. Somehow I wish I had frapsed it, would've been awsome to post that as a counter-argument in this thread. It might be because I'm a super-pilot myself, but when you know how Fighters function you can easily kite them around and thus completely neglegt their damage output.

Since people are being stubborn and-/or stupid, I'll give a hint: they're slow and not very agile. If you have enough speed/maneuverability, especially combined with multiple on-grid bookmarks or objects to warp to, it's not even hard to "tank" 20 Fighters in a semi-decent BC. I reccon a BS would have alot more issues tho, unless a Machariel, you'd be too slow and not agile enough. But there's the rock/scissor/paper, and the TL;DR is that my solo BC-hull was tanking a Nyx' Fighters perfectly fine. Obviously I stayed out of neut/pointrange, I could not point him anyway so even less reason to do.



I agree with you on this on but you are missing a very important factor. Your example is 1 vs 1 scenario … I wild love to see how you are dogging 5 fighters with another 4.000 FB (200 SC) on grid … Have you tried it?

What happens to a lone super after the nerf? – Same thing that is happening now to a lone super: it dies. This changes dramatically when you scale the scenario …

My 2 cents ...
E


Then you bright a few bombers, just a handful will easily do.
Edit; Oh and I should add in that I'm not saying game should be balanced around 1v1. I'm just highlighting for stupid people who are whining their 40 subcaps die to a solo mothership (there's quite a few people whining about scenarious in here, and they want fighters nerfed based on that) is frankly - bad players. If one guy easily can dodge 20 fighters, and if two-three hics easily can rotate points to dodge ecm drones/fighters, ecm burst and neuts, then a proper subcap fleet need to get a clue rather than whining because they don't know how to play the game. P


So the subcap guys should just "bright a few bombers" but it's too much to ask the supercap guys to do the same?

Should we infer that supercap pilots don't have any friends?


Even you can't be that stupid. He's saying you can't counter 200 motherships. I say a handful of bombers takes care of all their damage. Obviously you'd need people to actually kill those motherships too, as well as those 200 motherships probably bringing their own support fleet to kill hostile HICs, dics, bombers, damage dealers, etc. That should not even have to be stated, heh.. there are actually players out there, who like him, think xyz motherships would be 'too powerful' because of fighters. Then he just didn't bring the counter.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross
The Skeleton Crew
#1370 - 2011-10-11 17:50:44 UTC
Liranan wrote:
[quote=CCP Tallest]
I do think you guys shoot once again look at Selene's original MS/SC proposals. That was far more balanced than what we have today.


link?
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1371 - 2011-10-11 17:51:41 UTC
iulixxi wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Then you bright a few bombers, just a handful will easily do.
Edit; Oh and I should add in that I'm not saying game should be balanced around 1v1. I'm just highlighting for stupid people who are whining their 40 subcaps die to a solo mothership (there's quite a few people whining about scenarious in here, and they want fighters nerfed based on that) is frankly - bad players. If one guy easily can dodge 20 fighters, and if two-three hics easily can rotate points to dodge ecm drones/fighters, ecm burst and neuts, then a proper subcap fleet need to get a clue rather than whining because they don't know how to play the game. P


Actualy you need about 34 bombs to kill a FB ... do your math

E


I just re-read his post and saw he said my solo Nighthawk would be dropped by 200 moms using FB's. I assumed he meant Fighters, my bad. Roll

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#1372 - 2011-10-11 17:54:12 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:


Are you kidding? I hope he never shuts up.

Not only are his tear-filled rantings music to our ears, but the fact he's incapable of expressing himself in anything other than incoherent flailing about CCP being owned by us makes anyone else opposed to supercap nerfs look stupid merely by association.


I am not actually allowed to like this more than once..



Careful, if you like or agree with anything a goon says it means you're a goon pet and we own you.


Whoo!

Now, so not to derail this further, my opinion on this.

SC Hp nerf = good except for hel
SC Drone bay = good, but should be able to hold more than 1 rack of fb/fighters
Dreadnaughts = GOOD but let them keep at least some drones
Titans = As above
logoff timer = YES!

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#1373 - 2011-10-11 17:56:10 UTC
I was originally going to post about how the Fighter nerf was a stupid idea, since that is the only real offensive platform of a carrier, but since Tallest isn't Stupidest, I can backtrack after my overnight digestion of this devblog.

Now on to my post.

Super Capitals
Supercarriers and Titans should have a support fleet to do anything. Why? Because they are the biggest ships in the game, and the pilot in them can't swap ships very easily. The fact that Supercarriers can deploy fighters or fighter bombers makes them a step above the carrier - but all four races need balance as far as EHP, whether it's the ships themselves, or the implants the pilots use (or both - and I'd lean towards both).

Captials
Carriers seem to be Ok, on their own, as is right now.

Dreadnaughts need love, in lots of ways. The siege timer/damage boost is a good start, but the tracking boost and help for the Hybrids on the Gallente Dread are still up in the air.

Fighters and Bombers
I started looking at fighters (and bombers, below) and I'm trying to figure out what really makes them special compared to large drones. I think looking at fighters (as associated with their hosts, the carrier and supercarrier) is an important part of the rebalance for capital and supercapital ships. Fighters should be something between an assault frigate and a cruiser, and Bombers should be something like a steath bomber/cruiser (but with torpedo-style damage only).
Suggested changes to Max Velocity/Signature Radius/Bandwidth Needed and defense Shield Capacity/Armor Hitpoints/Structure Hitpoints:

Fighters
I based fighter mobility and signature on an MWD AF for each race, and defense on a basic tanked HAC. I would think damage would be akin to the Assault Frigate or a combat cruiser, including racial damage types.

Dragonfly
2,000/100/25 3,000/2,750/4,000 (original)
2,600/230/50 7,826/1,583/1,934 - 42,800 EHP w/resists (new)

Einherji
2,500/100/25 2,750/3,250/3,750 (original)
3,300/200/50 6,955/2,505/1,758 - 36,028 EHP w/resists (new)

Firbolg
2,250/100/25 2,500/3,000/4,500 (original)
2,700/220/50 1,450/8,970/3,955 - 42,939 EHP w/resists (new)

Templar
2,125/100/25 2,250/3,750/4,250 (original)
2,800/220/50 1,741/9,039/2,110 - 52,690 EHP w/resists (new)

Fighter Bombers
I based mobility and signature on an AB Stealth Bomber for each race, and defense from a basic tanked Combat Recon. Damage should be akin to the output of a torpedo-only stealth bomber, including racial damage types.

Mantis
1400/125/25 6000/5500/8000 (original)
928/39/50 7,295/1,195/1,090 - 27,340 EHP w/resists

Tyrfing
1750/125/25 5500/6500/7500 (original)
1059/34/50 6,525/1,476/1,090 - 27,449 EHP w/resists

Cyclops
1575/125/25 5000/6000/9000 (original)
969/37/50 1,406/8,059/1,090 -30,280 EHP w/resists

Malleus
1485/125/25 4500/7500/8500 (original)
969/37/50 1,548/8,141/1,090 - 32,340 EHP w/resists

Yes, Fighter Bombers have a massively reduced signature, akin to a standard frigate. That might need to be boosted, but their tank and speed are also significantly lower. FIghters have a much greater signature, again akin to the MWD signature of the Assault Frigate.

Anyway, I know this is a pointless exercise. I do it because FIghters (and Bombers) are the backbone of the offense/defense of the carrier and super carrier, and should be evaluated as such. I haven't done damage profiles yet, because that is a lot more :effort: than tanking profiles...

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
thebarry
7-2 Ronin
#1374 - 2011-10-11 17:56:28 UTC
Carabusu wrote:
thebarry wrote:
I like these changes a lot, but POS Gunning will also have to be rebalanced IMO.

The 5 minute timer on dreads will make it pretty much impossible for pos gunners to kill them. Previously we relied on the 10 minute siege timer to give us time to kill the dreads(about 2-3 minutes to empty its cap with 3 neuts, than another 4+ minutes to finish it off with the large guns). While it was very difficult even before, I believe now with a 5 minute siege timer it may literally be impossible for any pos, regardless of its configuration and number of gunners, to destroy a dread that's fitted a certain way(think perfect fleet booster, t2 trimarks, slaves) before it comes out of siege and gets repped up by triage carrier(s).



You literally just said EXACTLY why CCP needed to change the mechanic of the Dread and it's Siege timer. Dreads have long been useless due to the 10 minute Siege, and the fact that their tracking is pure shite* in Siege mode.

They are trying to bring them back to the field as a viable option. But fortunately for you, the dreads damage is still crapola on a stick. lol removal of 5 drones...whatever. They buff damage from 625% to 700% in Siege. Okay. Great. Still won't mean much.


I shot sleepers with dread :) so on balance this is great for me and I approve, but at the same time, something should be done to keep pos gunning viable, as well...it shouldn't be a completely useless skill!
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding
#1375 - 2011-10-11 17:56:43 UTC
Damian Gene wrote:
Ok, well much has been said about this.
First off, I fly subcaps.
Second off, I fly a HIC (Onyx actualy)

So your telling me now, that I can point a titan and all I need to do is orbit with an afterburner running?
With titans not able to DD me AND not able to log off, I can simply wait for a fleet to form and light my cyno?
Even to me, this is kind of bad considering a titan costs at least 70b and my ship costs 250m.
When I was in the North, I remember MM lost more supers to them logging in and getting scanned down, then on the field of battle.

Cracking a DD costs: 25,000,000isk at 50,000 units of iso's x 500isk each. Why not change that to 200,000 units so it costs 100m per crack, make sure their cargo can carry lets say, 3-5 cracks? And yes, they should be able to hit subcaps. This way, I need to have a few friends in order to tackle them.

Supers.
I've wanted a Wyvern for a long time, as I fly Caldari. However, I've noticed that I can ONLY old 20 F and 20FB. If I wanted to carry ANY other drones, I'd have to decide to drop a F or a FB. Already a hard choice, as I'd like to have a full bay of ECM drones.
Now I guess I'll just get a carrier. I can do that with a carrier, 10 fighers, 10 ECM, 10x all other useful drones.
If a Super is carrying fighers, then it will have 20 usable fighers. that's only 2x better then a carrier in DPS... Now those fighers, be they in a carrier OR a super are going to suck MORE?

A fit Chimera costs maybe 1b, whereas a fit Wyvern costs 17b?

We just went back in time, to the amazing days of MoM's. 1.5x the EHP of a carrier, 2x the damage and 17x the cost. At least you didnt cut the EHP that bad, but you still made these ships not worth being entombed in. If you want them to be used, cut their cost down to reflect the shitness that they are going to be.

I dont like blobs, but I believe you hit the Supers pinata with nerf bat a bit hard.

TL;DR
Supers EHP cut: Good
Supers not able to use other drones: Ok...people will deal with it.
Supers not able to carry 20F 20FB: BAD
Logoff timers: Ok (but people will just use DT to their advantage)
Titans not being able to doomsday subcaps: BAD (lowsec, everywhere?)
Titans EHP cut: Good


If you fly a titan and you get tackled by some lone hictor that's just roaming around you deserve to lose said titan. You do not take out supers without support. That's just dumb. As for the not able to carry 20F AND 20FB, well you're going to have to decide what you plan on fighting against. Do you want to kill the Battleships in the support fleet, or do you want to wail on the dreads sieging your pos. You have to make a CHOICE.

Since CCP isn't going to kill fighters as they were previously, I only have 2 complaints. First, Dread tracking, dreads can't hit a damn thing so a damage buff won't matter at all, buff tracking so they can actually hit something besides a pos tower. Also what happened to the buff to SMA size on carriers, is that gone now? Was really looking forward to that.
Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1376 - 2011-10-11 18:02:06 UTC
thebarry wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
thebarry wrote:
I like these changes a lot, but POS Gunning will also have to be rebalanced IMO.

The 5 minute timer on dreads will make it pretty much impossible for pos gunners to kill them. Previously we relied on the 10 minute siege timer to give us time to kill the dreads(about 2-3 minutes to empty its cap with 3 neuts, than another 4+ minutes to finish it off with the large guns). While it was very difficult even before, I believe now with a 5 minute siege timer it may literally be impossible for any pos, regardless of its configuration and number of gunners, to destroy a dread that's fitted a certain way(think perfect fleet booster, t2 trimarks, slaves) before it comes out of siege and gets repped up by triage carrier(s).



You literally just said EXACTLY why CCP needed to change the mechanic of the Dread and it's Siege timer. Dreads have long been useless due to the 10 minute Siege, and the fact that their tracking is pure shite* in Siege mode.

They are trying to bring them back to the field as a viable option. But fortunately for you, the dreads damage is still crapola on a stick. lol removal of 5 drones...whatever. They buff damage from 625% to 700% in Siege. Okay. Great. Still won't mean much.


I shot sleepers with dread :) so on balance this is great for me and I approve, but at the same time, something should be done to keep pos gunning viable, as well...it shouldn't be a completely useless skill!



Well, as it pertains to POS gunnery and Dreads your point is 100% valid. However, as with everything the big picture is what is called into question here. POS Gunners will need to focus on logistical support and other DPS other than the dreads.

New changes require new tactics. Part of the fun of EvE for sure.

PS...I still am a sad panda about the loss of my ability to rat in E-Z mode in my Wyvern lol

Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1377 - 2011-10-11 18:02:24 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Yes, this is exactly the thing most people are against - ability to fend of subcaps. Supercaps should not be able to do it easily, you should have support fleet for that.

If you gave them just "few" drones, with remote ecm bursts, neuts and "few" drones a squad of supercaps could completely clear floor with bunch of hics that are hoping to keep at least 1 or 2 of them.

Thats why Im for completely removing fighters from scs.


lol some people just are clueless. After this patch a single dictor and bunch of frigits will be able to over a period of time able to kill a super/titan, its just insainly stupid this whole new dynamic in the winter patch.


And this is how exactly it should be!
Supercarriers must have their support fleet, if they are going solo, they deserve to die.


Pure stupidness.


Explain?

These two ship classes are the only ones for which this was not the case. Enough frigates, and any bs / bc / dread / ok-not-a-carrier-i-lied, can't do jack ****.

Supercarriers are not supposed to be solo-pwn-mobiles. Really.
Damian Gene
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#1378 - 2011-10-11 18:04:02 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
Damian Gene wrote:
Ok, well much has been said about this.
First off, I fly subcaps.
Second off, I fly a HIC (Onyx actualy)

So your telling me now, that I can point a titan and all I need to do is orbit with an afterburner running?
With titans not able to DD me AND not able to log off, I can simply wait for a fleet to form and light my cyno?
Even to me, this is kind of bad considering a titan costs at least 70b and my ship costs 250m.
When I was in the North, I remember MM lost more supers to them logging in and getting scanned down, then on the field of battle.

Cracking a DD costs: 25,000,000isk at 50,000 units of iso's x 500isk each. Why not change that to 200,000 units so it costs 100m per crack, make sure their cargo can carry lets say, 3-5 cracks? And yes, they should be able to hit subcaps. This way, I need to have a few friends in order to tackle them.

Supers.
I've wanted a Wyvern for a long time, as I fly Caldari. However, I've noticed that I can ONLY old 20 F and 20FB. If I wanted to carry ANY other drones, I'd have to decide to drop a F or a FB. Already a hard choice, as I'd like to have a full bay of ECM drones.
Now I guess I'll just get a carrier. I can do that with a carrier, 10 fighers, 10 ECM, 10x all other useful drones.
If a Super is carrying fighers, then it will have 20 usable fighers. that's only 2x better then a carrier in DPS... Now those fighers, be they in a carrier OR a super are going to suck MORE?

A fit Chimera costs maybe 1b, whereas a fit Wyvern costs 17b?

We just went back in time, to the amazing days of MoM's. 1.5x the EHP of a carrier, 2x the damage and 17x the cost. At least you didnt cut the EHP that bad, but you still made these ships not worth being entombed in. If you want them to be used, cut their cost down to reflect the shitness that they are going to be.

I dont like blobs, but I believe you hit the Supers pinata with nerf bat a bit hard.

TL;DR
Supers EHP cut: Good
Supers not able to use other drones: Ok...people will deal with it.
Supers not able to carry 20F 20FB: BAD
Logoff timers: Ok (but people will just use DT to their advantage)
Titans not being able to doomsday subcaps: BAD (lowsec, everywhere?)
Titans EHP cut: Good


If you fly a titan and you get tackled by some lone hictor that's just roaming around you deserve to lose said titan. You do not take out supers without support. That's just dumb. As for the not able to carry 20F AND 20FB, well you're going to have to decide what you plan on fighting against. Do you want to kill the Battleships in the support fleet, or do you want to wail on the dreads sieging your pos. You have to make a CHOICE.

Since CCP isn't going to kill fighters as they were previously, I only have 2 complaints. First, Dread tracking, dreads can't hit a damn thing so a damage buff won't matter at all, buff tracking so they can actually hit something besides a pos tower. Also what happened to the buff to SMA size on carriers, is that gone now? Was really looking forward to that.


My point was not how a Titan was solo, but titans get bumped out of POS's a LOT.
Titans stage, and while waiting to do something if someone bumps them out, then there hopelessly flying away at crazy speed. One HIC (which, is what i fly) can tackle them and wait for help.
Titans / supers generally do not stage in the same location as subcap fleets, for many reasons, and it could take quite some time to get help there.
Titans should be able to DD subcaps, just make it cost more to do so.
Tell me why a titan is worth 70-90b after this nerf?
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#1379 - 2011-10-11 18:05:39 UTC
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
So tl;dr of the devblog:

  • maintaining and training supercarrier gets easier and cheaper (no drone skills except FB4/5), characters get cheaper on Bazaar - more supercap proliferation
  • 25 mil skillpoints toons will be able to have everything needed at 5
  • longtime impact on supercarrier production: will get cheaper, probably soon only T2 fitted?
  • you need more guys to cover your supercap fleet, so alliances will form bigger powerbloc if they want to get stuff done
  • when sov mechanics gets changed supercarriers are useless again
  • no ratting supercarriers/ carriers kills when roaming cause fighter changes Sad
  • small alliance with small blue list will have issues to do anything sov related, pretty sure that is what we all are looking forward
  • dreadnoughts become viable again
  • titans can still hit subcaps

    • This is the only guy who gets it. The Devs and apparently 99% of the rest of the players are stupid.

    [u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
    Demon Azrakel
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #1380 - 2011-10-11 18:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
    Tippia wrote:
    Evil Celeste wrote:
    Solo supercarrier not being able to defend itself except remote ecm and neuts.
    That's something rather different than what he suggests, though…


    He forgot webs and paints, they are always an option... (inb4 thats not an option because I want to **** subcap fleets without gimping my setup)

    Also, remote ECM, neuts, and smartbombs go a long way towards keeping your silly solo SC alive...they always have.

    EDIT: Derp, meant ECM, not ECCM