These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1281 - 2011-10-11 16:07:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Kahrnar wrote:
So when your fighters are gone, the fight is over....which should take a small gang about 30 seconds to do...then they can sit there and plug away til you die...its the same as running out of ammo...a ship with NO offence is useless...lol

So you didn't bring a support fleet? Oh dear, sucks to be you.


Support fleets won't kill those bombers in time. So yah it sucks to be him, he's sitting there in his expensive tomb, being completely relying on a blob of support ships, while not being able to do a thing.

Your argument would be correct if Fighters/FB's would return to the dronebay in less than 10sec if asked to, but guess what, usually they a) get stuck in POS shields, as you tend to fight around them b) gets stuck in lag, I had one fight in lowsec (!) where it took me 30min+ before my final one came back, etc.

The support fleet can't keep those instantly-dead FB's alive. They should and could keep tacklers off your supers tho, I think the fleet argument is a valid one. Completely removing dronebay makes the ship quite useless tho, there should be room for a limited regular dronebay at the very least.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1282 - 2011-10-11 16:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
kralz wrote:
i really dont get it at this point, the avid hatred of capitals and super caps
Have you tried reading?

It's because the obsolete a whole crapton of other ships and roles; because they encourage an N+1 kind of one-upmanship; and because they kill variety. None of your straw men are even close to being accurate, which tells me that you haven't even tried to “get it”, at this point or any other.
Misanth wrote:
Support fleets won't kill those bombers in time. So yah it sucks to be him, he's sitting there in his expensive tomb, being completely relying on a blob of support ships, while not being able to do a thing.
Sure he can. Properly equipped, he can support that support fleet and make their job a whole lot easier.
Evil Celeste
#1283 - 2011-10-11 16:10:57 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"


If you think, that solo bs can without heavy neut and little bit of luck do anything about decent tackler, you are wrong. Standard t2 fitted rifter will kill your warriors in 30-40 seconds, orbiting sader with locus rigs even faster and you have no chance of hitting them with guns.

Tackle inties can kite even heavy neut range btw.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1284 - 2011-10-11 16:11:40 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
In this thread, I've read several very good reasons why the fighter change is a bad idea. You are right. Fighters should stay the way they are. The change would be unfair for carriers.

The poor performance of Minmatar capital ships is being looked at and was already being looked at before the blog was posted.

Pointing out flaws and issues with the balancing plan is very much appreciated. I will look into the issues and make changes where they are needed.

Once this hits SISI, I will start a thread in the test server feedback forums. Your concerns will be listened to and acted upon if necessary.




I think it's important to keep in mind that to most Supercap pilots, that choosing to use Fighters is like choosing to bring out a 14B ISK Carrier with a little more DPS... Economically, better to buy 14 Carriers and put them on the field in that case.


So, the Fighters are probably less of a concern in that case, thinking like an EVE player for Supercaps, but severely limits Carriers.



I will say I'm not crazy of the inability to shoot Sub-caps for Supercaps (it's not that I don't like it, it just FEELs weird and thematically difficult to justify).



Other than that, I guess it's a short term solution.

Where I am.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1285 - 2011-10-11 16:12:36 UTC
CCP Tallest and others: I put an idea in F&I on the tracking issue

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20231&find=unread

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1286 - 2011-10-11 16:13:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Your are apparently all about fitting ships into the "roles" they were meant to have and leaving them unable to do anything else but still leaving every other non capital with enough versatility to preform many different roles.
Most of them have very clearly defined roles and suck if you try to stray to far outside them (except for the Domi).
[quote]


That is so wrong is laughable. How about an example. Battleships fitting all Hardeners and plates/extenders and fitting all high slot with large smartbombs. Which works extremely well with enough BS using the same smart bombs and the same hardeners. I highly doubt that was what CCP expected when they made BS and smartbombs. So don't say that non caps suck outside of their originally designed intent.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1287 - 2011-10-11 16:13:44 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"

Not only do Supercarriers not need to travel home alone through gates after a long fleet fight, but they have their own tools available to help break tackles in the form of neuts, smartbombs and ECM bursts. Sure they're not a 100% guarunteed method, but neither is carrying EC-300's in a Maelstrom.

Plus there is also the problem of where to draw the line. Five Warrior II's will not scare off any competent dictor pilot, he will just warp out and return before the bubble expires. Give the supercarrier the ability to fly twenty of those warriors and you suddenly have a scaling problem in fleet fights, with 1000 drones being assigned to one FC supercap to swat down tacklers as they all load replacements from their CHAs.

I don't think it's unfair to ask people to bring along an escort carrier or use a friendly starbase when moving around a 20bn+ ISK ship. Hell, chances are you have a cyno ship that can fit some kind of weapon.
Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1288 - 2011-10-11 16:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Tungsten
Evil Celeste wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Your still chatting absolute an utter nonscence. No1 is on about solopawnmobiles,adapting is all good an well, mostly super/titans are used with a subcap fleet anyway unless there fail. So maybe you have got your frieghter or Jump frieghter hotdropped 1 too many times, you being fail doesnt mean that the rest of eve an vets have to suffer for it.

You are wrong as usual, if there is subcap fleet fielded with friendly scs, then supercaps dont need to provide any defense vs subcaps by themselves.
That you want to soloblob small roaming gangs with supercarrier, because you have no skills to fight them with subcaps or god forbid, form a fleet and have decent fight with them, its sad thing.

But i know, how dare they to dusturb you while carebearing! They must be crushed! Preferably with 0 chance of fighting back, because you paid 20bil ship for ship.Roll


your quite incredible, Supers/titans as I already state time an time again for just you mr special LOL are already fielded with a subcap fleet unless they are fail. The problem is not quality of subcap fleet supporting them at all. You obviously have no idea about what goes on in 0.0 or your a goon alt ofc bloody minded stubborn stupidity. A structured more elite subcap fleet looking after there supers/titans will be after this patch be no match for a humungo laggfesting blob of whelp canes etc. You fail to see the bigger picture an I have no intention of explaning to you obviousness anymore. Your a lost soul iv accepted that.
Supers/titans will NOT be used for out an out fleet fights, there will NOT be a balanced super cap fight at all. Supers/titans will only be used to counter hotdrop a lesser number of capital targets and bridge, that is all they are going to be affective for after patch. So that in no way balances a super class fight at all as CCP are intending.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#1289 - 2011-10-11 16:14:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPERCARRIER!!!!!


THEN YOU CAN CERTAINLY AFFORD TO BUY SOME FRIENDS TO PROTECT YOU FROM A SABRE!!!


OMG WORKING TOGETHER AS A TEAM!!!! CCP IS FORCING US TO SOICALIZE AND WORK TOGETHER WHAHHH WAHHHH!!

Go pod youself sir. oh can i has your super cap?

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1290 - 2011-10-11 16:14:56 UTC
AspiB'elt wrote:
Hi CCP,

The best way it's to remove completly the fighter to sc. Only fighterbomber.

If you have 20 nyx on the field without support. You have again 200 fighters on the field and with 200 fighters it's impossible to tackle with hid.

Don't forget that the supercarrier can still cap transfert and cap remote. If you have 20 nyx how many bhaalgorn do you need to cut the RR of 20 nyx. More then 100 ...

I have often see more then 20 nyx and the field but i have never see 10 bhaalgorn on the field ...

Remove completly the fighter from supercarrier and the subcap have some chance to kill some massive blob of super without support


If those Nyx' should bring support, so should you. Where's your smartbomging BS or SB's? Just takes a handful to completely kill off those drones. And why did your HIC not warp off when primaried? Where's the rotation of pointing? Your fleet were ****, so you lost, get over it.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1291 - 2011-10-11 16:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Evil Celeste wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"


If you think, that solo bs can without heavy neut and little bit of luck do anything about decent tackler, you are wrong. Standard t2 fitted rifter will kill your warriors in 30-40 seconds, orbiting sader with locus rigs even faster and you have no chance of hitting them with guns.

Tackle inties can kite even heavy neut range btw.



So you wouldn't mind BS having their drone bays removed then?

Obsidian Hawk wrote:


Go pod youself sir. oh can i has your super cap?



No, my titan is just fine where it is thanks, though evidently I have a ship shattering beam that can kill 10's of thousands of crew members in a flash, and I have a cargo bay big enough to hold a fully assembled cruiser and frigate, but I can't launch 5 light drones.

I have a team of gnomish engineers currently looking at ways to punch a hole in the cargo bay door and storing drones in there.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#1292 - 2011-10-11 16:15:23 UTC
If doomsdays are going to be limited to firing only on capital class ships, they better work in low sec.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1293 - 2011-10-11 16:16:34 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
That is so wrong is laughable. How about an example. Battleships fitting all Hardeners and plates/extenders and fitting all high slot with large smartbombs. Which works extremely well with enough BS using the same smart bombs and the same hardeners. I highly doubt that was what CCP expected when they made BS and smartbombs. So don't say that non caps suck outside of their originally designed intent.
Except I didn't say “originally designed intent” — I said outside of their role.
None of what you just said demonstrated them being used outside their role.

So, do you have any examples of this?
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross
The Skeleton Crew
#1294 - 2011-10-11 16:17:02 UTC
Draahk Chimera wrote:
While changes (nerfs) to the supercapital roster is indeed welcome I do remain of the opinion that the only way to breathe new life into 0.0 warfare is to nerf remote repping. Fleets with 20 or more logistics can be nothing but negative; they promote blobbing and the homogenization of fleets, and is an absolute killer of small-but-elite fleets (such as BURN EDEN). While blobbing is to some extent the product of human nature, in a game enviroment where you cannot break a single enemy without hitting it with 100+ ships blobbing goes from an annoyance to a necessity.

Remote repping needs to be nerfed now in order to facilitate a game where people are free to bring any (useful) ship and aren't forced to train for and use artillery ships. Also with less remote repairs small-but-elite fleets can once again use teamwork and good knowlege of the game to actually hurt or even kill off much larger blobs of inexperienced players.


^^ very good point.
trademeyourmoneys
billionaire boyz club
#1295 - 2011-10-11 16:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: trademeyourmoneys
Cant dock - makes fitting/fueling + changing corp a pain
Have to pay for 2nd pvp account
Considered end game
Expensive (should be worth the isk)
Time actually spent logged in a supercap is very low $/time played is low conversion
Wasted skill points - If you plan to stay in supercaps having a char with gun skills maxed is kinda pointless, unless moving onto a titan of course but lets be honest with these changes i have no desire to.

considering this are these changes not too much? if one of these nerfs ie the ehp one went through i can understand but seeing as these changes make them more useless than when they got buffed, i cant see this being the way to push things forward?

These ships are the most expensive in game afterall and alot of people work their butt off to get them and you are making them practically useless.. i just dont understand ccp devs anymore
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1296 - 2011-10-11 16:18:12 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"

Not only do Supercarriers not need to travel home alone through gates after a long fleet fight


Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1297 - 2011-10-11 16:20:39 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.
Maybe you should actually read what he wrote before you start assuming such things, especially if you try to correct him by saying the same thing he did…
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1298 - 2011-10-11 16:20:47 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"

Not only do Supercarriers not need to travel home alone through gates after a long fleet fight


Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.


Double negatives are tricky business!
Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1299 - 2011-10-11 16:21:12 UTC
trademeyourmoneys wrote:
Cant dock - makes fitting/fueling + changing corp a pain
Have to pay for 2nd pvp account
Considered end game
Expensive (should be worth the isk)

considering this are these changes not too much? if one of these nerfs ie the ehp one went through i can understand but seeing as these changes make them more useless than when they got buffed, i cant see this being the way to push things forward?

These ships are the most expensive in game afterall and alot of people work their butt off to get them and you are making them practically useless.. i just dont understand ccp devs anymore


CCP are evidently Goon pets that could be ofc a big reason for this monumental **** up. Failness breeds more fail.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1300 - 2011-10-11 16:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Velin Dhal
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
That is so wrong is laughable. How about an example. Battleships fitting all Hardeners and plates/extenders and fitting all high slot with large smartbombs. Which works extremely well with enough BS using the same smart bombs and the same hardeners. I highly doubt that was what CCP expected when they made BS and smartbombs. So don't say that non caps suck outside of their originally designed intent.
Except I didn't say “originally designed intent” — I said outside of their role.
None of what you just said demonstrated them being used outside their role.

So, do you have any examples of this?


Sure, the role of a battleship is to be used as primary or co-primary DPS in fleets while being supported by smaller ships. Yet they can still operate well solo against gangs of smaller ships and can form gangs of nothing but battleships to become extremely powerful as in the Smart bombing fleet i described before.