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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1241 - 2011-10-11 15:43:02 UTC
Kari Kari wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Pure Epic post here. CCP you better do this.


Yeah or he'll quit for... what is he up to now? the sixth time? The seventh?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

whoyoulookingat
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1242 - 2011-10-11 15:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: whoyoulookingat
LoL at alot of the comments in this thread..

"MY CAPITAL can't DEFEND itself again non Capital ships"... Err, you know Capitals are supposed to be used with support yes?

If you're Dumb enough to use them without support, you deserve to lose them Lol MMO anyone?

And if you can't think "Outside the box" and go with the "Norm" with fittings, then see above Bear

And you must be really stupid if you thought CCP would leave the Capital Class unchanged.. Teach ya for going "FOTM" P

I would go one step further and change it so (even with RSB's), Locking a Sub Class Capital in a Capital Hull would take over 20mins Twisted

Log timer change = good.

Drone changes = good

EHP reduction = time will tell.

and on a final note, the oldest saying in Eve:

DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE
Evil Celeste
#1243 - 2011-10-11 15:43:19 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Have you ever sat in a mothership and tried to fend off subcaps? Two HIC's that know what they do can't be removed by a single mothership pilot. I usually flew my motherships with 3 officer neuts and an ECM burst, with ecm drones, obviously full flight of Fighters/FB's etc.. theoreticly: 2-3 HIC's that rotate ongrid bm's/warps, and rotate keeping their points, all staying at well enough range from me to keep their point up but make my drones suffer from travel time.. they could technicly keep me there indefinately.

Assuming this is lowsec, I could probably hope to get max align, then hit ECM burst and warp off. This situation requires the HICs not to bump me ofc, which they probably won't with just 2-3 of them and bouncing the drones between them. But they could easily maintain my three neuts and disable my ecm drones. A single HIC that gets attacked by Fighters (even if neuted) will just warp off and warp back in. He'll even tank them for a decent while.

"clear floor" only happens when the HIC pilots set orbit on the mom, stay on field, with their focused script up (or bubble in null, so they can't warp themselves) and don't communicate with the other HIC pilots to make sure there's always at least one point up. Those pilots don't deserve a kill.


Agro from fighters, neuts, ecm burst, jump. Problem solved. None of the hics will keep lock without eccm and none i know of can tackle 2000 dps under neuts. Problem solved.
Di Mulle
#1244 - 2011-10-11 15:43:29 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Yes, this is exactly the thing most people are against - ability to fend of subcaps. Supercaps should not be able to do it easily, you should have support fleet for that.

If you gave them just "few" drones, with remote ecm bursts, neuts and "few" drones a squad of supercaps could completely clear floor with bunch of hics that are hoping to keep at least 1 or 2 of them.

Thats why Im for completely removing fighters from scs.


lol some people just are clueless. After this patch a single dictor and bunch of frigits will be able to over a period of time able to kill a super/titan, its just insainly stupid this whole new dynamic in the winter patch.


And this is how exactly it should be!
Supercarriers must have their support fleet, if they are going solo, they deserve to die.


Pure stupidness.



You really do not need supercarrier to pwn, just use your forehead, it is really thick enough Blink
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1245 - 2011-10-11 15:44:34 UTC
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Why should you have something everybody else didn't get when other ships where balanced/nerfed.
I think you have had an unfair advantage long enough.
Training a account just to fly one ship in eve kinda proves the point that they are overpowered don't you think?


Because with other ships, you dock, switch ships, and go on your merry way. There is no docking and switching ships with supers due to CCP's game design. L2read.
Evil Celeste
#1246 - 2011-10-11 15:44:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kari Kari wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Pure Epic post here. CCP you better do this.


Yeah or he'll quit for... what is he up to now? the sixth time? The seventh?


Last time it was unprobable snipers? Yeah, be always bring good laugh.
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1247 - 2011-10-11 15:45:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[Yeah or he'll quit for... what is he up to now? the sixth time? The seventh?


Cry more noob.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1248 - 2011-10-11 15:46:21 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
iulixxi wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.


A 6 bil Jump Freighter can’t do that either, a 1 bil Freighter same thing …. What exactly is your point? The ship was not design for that … simple as that. A super is immune to EW, has an insane amount of HP and it was design to fight caps.


You do realize that JFs and Freighters are industrial haulers right ? Not combat ships ?


 Exacly! The role of JFs and Freighters is industrial haulers … well the role of the supers is to fight caps.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1249 - 2011-10-11 15:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Shadowsword wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Shadowsword wrote:


If your Nyx doesn't have a support fleet, you deserve to lose it.



I dont disagree, however I dont deserve to loose a 26 bil isk ship because I could not deal with a solo random tackler by myself or small random nano gang with a dictor who never set out to kill a supercap.



If a solo random tackler or a small nano gang catch you, they still have to:

1/ Overpower your active tank.

2/ Chew out your millions upon millions of EHP. I suspect most of that gang would have run out of ammo long before you got to structure.

Whatever, it's going to take them time. Lots of it.

So the important question is, what are your alliance mates doing while you're tackled? If they do nothing, you lose it, and it's working as intended. If their batphone is more effective than your own, you lose it after some interesting fight, and again, it's working as intended. But it's not a small random nano gang that will have killed you, it will be a whole fleet. If your own batphone prevail, you live, and it's also working as intended.



Wow, I can tell you fly supercaps.

Lets start with my active tank... oh wait supercaps are max EHP buff with no local reps becasue, 1: you would have to fit CCC rigs to run local reps which would nerf your EHP tank which would, 2: cause you to melt in a fleet fight.

Now lets talk about my cap recharge on a supercap... when supercaps got buffed one buff that didn't happen was cap amount / recharge. So in my passive EHP tanked Nyx I generate 64.1 cap per second with a cap base of 84,375.

So back to the small roaming gang, with a single dictor and a cyno ship on the way. Now I cant kill the dictor and Im not in a massive blob alliance that can just form up a support fleet and use 0.0 POS jump becons to get to me quickly. So here I am tackled with some nano ships that arent doing much to me other than the Curse or Pilgrim who probably has me neuted down pretty well by now and here comes the cyno ship, cause no one has supercaps or dreads in EVE am I right? So now here I am tackled by a single dictor, neuted out, and dying to a few super caps and dreads. EDIT: oh and the small nano gang.

Pretty ******** if you ask me.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1250 - 2011-10-11 15:47:07 UTC
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Why should you have something everybody else didn't get when other ships where balanced/nerfed.
I think you have had an unfair advantage long enough.
Training a account just to fly one ship in eve kinda proves the point that they are overpowered don't you think?


No people train the accounts just to fly them because they are undockable and if own one your locked in it. Most people don't feel comfortable letting a Super Cap sit in a POS shield unattended where it can be bumped out.
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross
The Skeleton Crew
#1251 - 2011-10-11 15:48:30 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:

If you want to committ to a fight and survive, you will have to rely on your FC's, you will have to rely on your alliance, you will have to rely on your friend s for victory and safety. All they are doing is putting an end to solo super cap play.



...Except that solo supercaps were *never* the problem in the first place. This is the point of my argument-- they're talking about breaking one, nonproblematic form of gameplay in order to fix problems with another form of gameplay (supercap blobbing). I'm just saying SCs should be left with enough drones to perhaps make a difference in solo play, but without such a mass of drones that they remain problematic in big fights.

Being able to field a total of ~60 normal drones is not going to make the tiniest difference in a fleet fight, but it might just make or break a solo engagement. That said, it's not like being able to field drones is a get-out-of-jail-free card for SCs. Even now, with an essentially infinite supply of small drones, its not like a solo SC is going to be able to fight its way out of a properly set trap. For actual, real-world examples of this, see the incidents where Dabigredboat dropped his Nyx on a gatecamp in Cobalt Edge (IRC brought a couple of dictors, tackled him on a gate, and killed his Nyx with a titan, a supercarrier, 1-2 dreads and a kitchen sink gang of subcaps), or Zungen losing a Nyx in Delve to Brick Squad (they brought a couple of dictors, he was held on the field and killed by a subcap gang). If a solo supercap can't escape a small hostile gang now, with infinite drones, I find it hard to believe that keeping a couple of flights of drones in the future will somehow render SCs broken solo pwnmobiles.

What reducing SC drone bays to a reasonable size *will* do is prevent piles of SCs in a fleet fight fielding hundreds of Ogre IIs, wave after wave, and using them to obliterate all subcaps on the field. I think this current behavior is dumb, and that supercaps shouldn't be able to prevail over subcap fleets without their own subcap support in fleet fights. Taking all their drones is totally unnecessary though.


^^ AGREED

In my opinion changing logoff mechanics, reducing HP and also reducing the drone bay is more then enough. characters who fly supers should be able to protect themeselves from smaller ships.

The big problem, as stated above, is not solo ratting or ganking in supers. That capability has no need of beeing removed.


Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1252 - 2011-10-11 15:49:23 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
No people train the accounts just to fly them because they are undockable and if own one your locked in it. Most people don't feel comfortable letting a Super Cap sit in a POS shield unattended where it can be bumped out.
So ask CCP to implement proper parking spaces for SC, where you can stow the ships without needing that valet character.
Kheper Ra
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1253 - 2011-10-11 15:49:31 UTC
Needa3 wrote:
thank you CCP for just making me not really want to care about your game anymore

I like how certain groups in Eve got their "things" implemented

was a fun 6 years but if this is what needs to bring your players back .... keep trying... someday you might get it right


Can I have your stuff?
Evil Celeste
#1254 - 2011-10-11 15:50:05 UTC
Anile8er wrote:

Wow, I can tell you fly supercaps.

Lets start with my active tank... oh wait supercaps are max EHP buff with no local reps becasue, 1: you would have to fit CCC rigs to run local reps which would nerf your EHP tank which would, 2: cause you to melt in a fleet fight.

Now lets talk about my cap recharge on a supercap... when supercaps got buffed one buff that didn't happen was cap amount / recharge. So in my passive EHP tanked Nyx I generate 64.1 cap per second with a cap base of 84,375.

So back to the small roaming gang, with a single dictor and a cyno ship on the way. Now I cant kill the dictor and Im not in a massive blob alliance that can just form up a support fleet and use 0.0 POS jump becons to get to me quickly. So here I am tackled with some nano ships that arent doing much to me other than the Curse or Pilgrim who probably has me neuted down pretty well by now and here comes the cyno ship, cause no one has supercaps or dreads in EVE am I right? So now here I am tackled by a single dictor, neuted out, and dying to a few super caps and dreads.

Pretty ******** if you ask me.


Why ffs you would warp/jump solo sc on small roaming gang?
...you desperately want your SOLOPWNMOBILE, dont you?
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1255 - 2011-10-11 15:51:01 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1256 - 2011-10-11 15:53:06 UTC
I've put in my hopes and dreams into this promised SC drone nerf, my HOPES and DREAMS and ****.

CCP better not go back on it, or I'll cancel the only account I still got left running!!!

Nyan

Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1257 - 2011-10-11 15:53:12 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Anile8er wrote:

Wow, I can tell you fly supercaps.

Lets start with my active tank... oh wait supercaps are max EHP buff with no local reps becasue, 1: you would have to fit CCC rigs to run local reps which would nerf your EHP tank which would, 2: cause you to melt in a fleet fight.

Now lets talk about my cap recharge on a supercap... when supercaps got buffed one buff that didn't happen was cap amount / recharge. So in my passive EHP tanked Nyx I generate 64.1 cap per second with a cap base of 84,375.

So back to the small roaming gang, with a single dictor and a cyno ship on the way. Now I cant kill the dictor and Im not in a massive blob alliance that can just form up a support fleet and use 0.0 POS jump becons to get to me quickly. So here I am tackled with some nano ships that arent doing much to me other than the Curse or Pilgrim who probably has me neuted down pretty well by now and here comes the cyno ship, cause no one has supercaps or dreads in EVE am I right? So now here I am tackled by a single dictor, neuted out, and dying to a few super caps and dreads.

Pretty ******** if you ask me.


Why ffs you would warp/jump solo sc on small roaming gang?
...you desperately want your SOLOPWNMOBILE, dont you?


Your still chatting absolute an utter nonscence. No1 is on about solopawnmobiles,adapting is all good an well, mostly super/titans are used with a subcap fleet anyway unless there fail. So maybe you have got your frieghter or Jump frieghter hotdropped 1 too many times, you being fail doesnt mean that the rest of eve an vets have to suffer for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1258 - 2011-10-11 15:55:09 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"
Pff! They were evading the turbo lasers and had to be engaged ship-to-ship.

Sheesh! -1 Nerd Cred right there, sir! Roll

Also, while we're on the topic:
“Sir, we've lost our bridge deflector shield.”
“Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through…Intensify forward firepower!”
“Too late!“
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1259 - 2011-10-11 15:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
Some random thoughts...

A blanket EHP nerf across the board is a little silly. The raw HP levels are already out of balance between supercaps of different races. Reducing everyone by the same amount means we miss out on an opportunity to correct that.

Solution? Adjust HP levels as follows:
Aeon -20%
Nyx -10%
Wyvern -15%
Hel - No change

Avatar, Erebus, Leviathan - No change
Ragnarok +10%

Supercarriers fighter bays are a little anemic. These ships are tricky and time-consuming to refit, so carrying a single flight of their only damage tool seems like a recipe for disaster.
Solution? Let them carry ~30 fighters/bombers.
Alternatively, remove the in-built drone deployment bonus in Supercarriers but increase the number that can be deployed using Drone Control Units. This introduces a trade-off between raw damage and remote-rep ability, as well as an increased risk of losing all your bombers in one flight or deploying less but having spares available.

There isn't enough difference between Capitals and Super-Capitals. Carriers have a role as support and anti-subcap ships, as escorts for Supercarriers that are now unable to defend themselves with their own drones. After these changes Dreadnoughts will still be limited in use as they're still just as vulnerable to being one-shotted as before. If you have enough titans, there will be little reason to use Dreads.
Titans also remain overpowered versus subcaps. With tracking links, remote sensor boosters and enough supercarriers behind them, beating a titan blob simply comes down to having more titans. Beyond a certain threshold subcap numbers still do not matter.

Solution? Three actually:

1) Doomsdays balanced on sig radius - A blanket 'no DD on subcaps' rule seems a little anti-sandbox for me. If I want to burn half my isotopes picking off Rifters, why can't I?
Let's change Doomsday damage to scale on target sig radius. For example:

Supercap = full damage
Dreadnought = ~1mil damage (with DD Op V)
Battleship = ~50k damage
Cruiser = 5k damage
Frigate = 1k damage

It will no longer destroy ships outright (unless they're nearly dead or terribly fitted) and makes Dreads more cost-efficient at taking on Titan fleets, increasing their role. This is also great to help smaller groups fight larger ones using their insured dreads.

2) Jump 'Calibration' - Supercaps should have a delay in order to lock onto a player-activated cyno beacon. This time is based on the distance they are travelling, so while a 2ly jump might take five seconds, a jump to the full range could require 30 seconds to lock on. This has several effects. Firstly it means that supercaps planning a hotdrop need to be nearer the target, increasing the odds of them being spotted. It also increases the odds of the cyno and/or tackler being destroyed or jammed before support can arrive. Finally it gives regular capitals an increased role as 'rapid-response' capitals, able to move around faster than their larget counterparts.

3) Electronic Attack Frigates. Yup you read that right.
This diminuitive vessel rarely seen outside of alliance tournaments and hilarious lossmails could use a bit more of a purpose in life. In the same way that HICs bypass the supercap immunity to tackling, EAFs should bypass their immunity to ewar.
The best part about this change is that it balances itself:
EAFs are already made of paper, which means that any supercap fleet with a supporting fleet of any description will be able to swat them down with ease. It provides a counter to the exponential remote-repping and tracking links of hundred-strong supercap fleets, especially when faced under a cynojammer. Plus of course it opens up an avenue for the Eve Newbie. Remember that guy? Well now he can be taking on the big boys in a few short weeks of training, helping to make a difference to that fight.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1260 - 2011-10-11 15:55:44 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"



No **** they launched tie fighters


WHERES MY TIE FIGHTERS VILE RAT, WHERE ARE THEY??!?!!!!?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.