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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#2301 - 2011-10-19 21:51:50 UTC
So I wrote a thread about this actually got quite a negative response of which I do not understand why I still think my argument is valid.

The current balancing that is happening to supercarriers I feel is going too far, you have gone beyond balancing them, and now have made them massive underpowered with the proposed ideas, the whole purpose on why someone would purchase a supercarrier is because it is versatile, while I agree that supercarriers where too versatile and far too effective against subcapitals (having had a fleet dropped by a lone Nyx) I still believe they need a certain amount of effectiveness against subcapitals, atleast some level of self-defence, as it has been said before, now a lone supercarrier is completely screwed if caught out, some people think this is a good thing, however I disagree and think it will be the death of supercarriers. I believe that they should still retain a limited amount of effectiveness against subcapitals while not being as effective as they are now, I even proposed the idea of how to achieve this, the mechanics are already in game, give all supercarriers the same 100% bonus to Fighter and Fighter-Bomber damage that the Revenant supercarrier currently has, and remove their 3 drones per level bonus down to 1 per level, giving a maxxed out supercarrier toon the same effective damage against a capital they currently have, yet they only have 10 drones for standard drones, meaning they are no more effective than dropping a regular carrier on a group of subcapitals, therefore giving it a certain level of self-defence against a small group of subcaps while it not being massively overpowered, and still giving it it's full power against other capitals meaning it is not worthless.

The current idea's right now are totally wrong, the drone bay is far too small, you can't even fit 20 Fighters and 20 Fighter-Bombers in the largest of bays, and they're going to totally lose their effectiveness against subcapitals, basically you are turning a supercarrier into a mini-titan, because that is all it will be, I for one have already sold my Nyx before the price crashes which I expect to happen as alot of supercarrier pilots realise their ship is completely useless after the balancing, you cannot let these current idea's be passed you are completely destroying the purpose of a Supercarrier and it being versatile, you might as well go and get a titan.

Also, how am I going to do mining ops in a Nyx if I can't launch Mining Drones =[ uMakeMeSad =[

Also on another note, I don't think the titans are getting balanced enough you are removing a drone bay that I VERY rarely see used by titan pilots, and I definitely have never met a titan pilot who feels his drone bay is an important part of his ships arsenal. and you are fixing the doomsday, I say fixing because I believe that the doomsday always should have been capital ships only, I don't see it as a nerf. The tracking on a titan needs to be sorted, I suggest removing the siege modules penalty to tracking on a dreadnaught, and instead make the standard tracking of capital guns exactly the same as it is of a sieged dreadnaught, meaning that dreads will still have the same tracking as now, but also so will titans, meaning they have absolutely no chance of hitting a subcapital.

I just think that the currently ideas are totally rushes by people begging for a nerf and havn't been thought through, I would appreciate some feedback, especially those who disagree with what I have said to help me understand why I am "wrong" because I don't see it.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2302 - 2011-10-19 22:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowsword
Dank Man wrote:
Lol Subtarian so group A correctly predicts the 2nd most expensive and 2nd hardest to train (if not hardest to train due to immense drone skills 20m+) biggest ships in the game would be very powerful in groups. Lots of people see this ship as the best for the multiple uses and circumstances, so it becomes FOTM for the vets, therefor because some noobs havnt had time to train for them and cant beat these skilled vets they cry that their ships are OP, your argument seems to be flawless.



"Best for multiple uses and circumstances" -> proof it needs a nerf.

"FOTM for vets" -> another proof it need a nerf.

Assumption that only noobs want supercaps nerfed -> Arrogance + Ignorance.

Not very skilled at arguing your point, are you?


Jaiimez Skor wrote:
I still believe they need a certain amount of effectiveness against subcapitals, atleast some level of self-defence, as it has been said before, now a lone supercarrier is completely screwed if caught out, some people think this is a good thing, however I disagree and think it will be the death of supercarriers


You're basing your argument on the assumption that A/ A lone supercarrier deserve to live, B/ that whatever tackle it will have time to chew trought the dozen of millions EHP before the supercarrier get some help.

I disagree on both premises.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#2303 - 2011-10-20 01:47:21 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
I still believe they need a certain amount of effectiveness against subcapitals, atleast some level of self-defence, as it has been said before, now a lone supercarrier is completely screwed if caught out, some people think this is a good thing, however I disagree and think it will be the death of supercarriers


You're basing your argument on the assumption that A/ A lone supercarrier deserve to live, B/ that whatever tackle it will have time to chew trought the dozen of millions EHP before the supercarrier get some help.

I disagree on both premises.[/quote]

i agree with the fact a lone supercarrier out trying to be cocky deserves to die, but say for whatever unfortunately circumstances it gets tackled, it is now helpless without it's buddys, and with the new logoff timer he can't just log off and he'll be gone in 15 minutes so he's stuck sitting there bored out of his skull for anywhere between 5 minutes to an hour depending where he is and how many people in both sides are online and ready to fleet up and go and he can't kill the hictor, so either he has to wait for his friends to turn up, or wait for the people wanting to kill him turns up, kinda stuck in a **** situation, he should atleast be able to try to kill the hic, okay it make take him 5/10 minutes to kill it because it's not very effective against it, but he should still be able to atleast have some method of killing it. I think it's just gonna cause alot of supercarrier pilots to say I can't be arsed with this, ain't worth the effort of owning a supercarrier, and not fly them anymore.
Angel Lust
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2304 - 2011-10-20 04:02:34 UTC
Its simple.
If you dont like this game anymore...
quit
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#2305 - 2011-10-20 07:57:32 UTC

i agree with the fact a lone supercarrier out trying to be cocky deserves to die, but say for whatever unfortunately circumstances it gets tackled, it is now helpless without it's buddys, and with the new logoff timer he can't just log off and he'll be gone in 15 minutes so he's stuck sitting there bored out of his skull for anywhere between 5 minutes to an hour depending where he is and how many people in both sides are online and ready to fleet up and go and he can't kill the hictor, so either he has to wait for his friends to turn up, or wait for the people wanting to kill him turns up, kinda stuck in a **** situation, he should atleast be able to try to kill the hic, okay it make take him 5/10 minutes to kill it because it's not very effective against it, but he should still be able to atleast have some method of killing it. I think it's just gonna cause alot of supercarrier pilots to say I can't be arsed with this, ain't worth the effort of owning a supercarrier, and not fly them anymore.[/quote]



ppl fighters signature res gets only increased to 400 which is exactly the same as that of large guns and they still (if they don't screw around with it) will have twice the racking of a small large gun
so a SC should still be able to kill a hictor just fine

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
whaynethepain
#2306 - 2011-10-20 09:17:17 UTC
How interesting, CCP works to the best of their ability to produce very powerful, useful ships and people complain.

This means improvement, can only be in the form of a nerf.

Perhaps if people complain enough, we will all be flying round in barges and haulers?

I vote to end player interference in game play!

Yes, I am bothered.

If you can't take the heat, fuk off.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
wanking monkey girl
Doomheim
#2307 - 2011-10-20 09:20:19 UTC
ships costing so much in both isk and skill time ccp think about rewarding the hard work of you're loyal eve fans and addicts

E war immunity
take away the ability to receive remote links and remote sebo's

nurf changes

hp hit
the ships have to much hp but also balance them.
the aeon is the most tanked ship in the game over that of a titan they need a balance.

Doomsday
one more great change but with the planed change allow them to use less fuel then 50k each time, given they are only able to hit large capital size ships.

agro timer great
again most of us agree on this change. but a solo hic or dic should not be able to hold any ship in place for hours after someone have logged off extended it.

as many have pointed out with the agro timer you will see many more die in the weeks and month that follow..

but also fix the self destruct add so ships in combat can not selfdestruck.

sc drone bay
let them have 20 fighter bombers and 20 fighters and a small drone bay with about 500m3.
super carriers in combat cannot refill on stranded drones lock the function with the agro timer.
solo super carrier moving about will be able to deafened itself for a limited amount of time.

if you go ahead with the changes listed then turn them in to advanced carrier and let them dock at lest their going to be used and made after the nurf, at the moment we have so meny sc that their not uncommon so move them to the next level.

IF the planed changes are introduced allow them to dock and turn the super carriers in to advanced carriers.
let advanced carriers dock.
Xue Slick
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2308 - 2011-10-20 10:00:58 UTC
whaynethepain wrote:
How interesting, CCP works to the best of their ability to produce very powerful, useful ships and people complain.

This means improvement, can only be in the form of a nerf.

Perhaps if people complain enough, we will all be flying round in barges and haulers?

I vote to end player interference in game play!

Yes, I am bothered.

If you can't take the heat, fuk off.



I am sure that barges and haulers are the only ships you fly anyways v0v

Stick to your clothing and boots and let us help with the spaceships.
whaynethepain
#2309 - 2011-10-20 10:04:28 UTC
If you really do agree, you will help me divert CCP to nerfing indy ships instead.

If you are trying to troll I wont see your face again.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
FHM
Doomheim
#2310 - 2011-10-20 10:52:52 UTC
Dank Man wrote:
Lol Subtarian so group A correctly predicts the 2nd most expensive and 2nd hardest to train (if not hardest to train due to immense drone skills 20m+) biggest ships in the game would be very powerful in groups. Lots of people see this ship as the best for the multiple uses and circumstances, so it becomes FOTM for the vets, therefor because some noobs havnt had time to train for them and cant beat these skilled vets they cry that their ships are OP, your argument seems to be flawless.


Thats what they were meant to be but are not anymore. They are not 2nd hardest to train that is a supid argument because Super Carrier requires same skill as Carrier apart from the fact you need Carrier on 3 that is all and you cannot count in extra drone skills, jump cal, armor and shield skills you trained extra because those skills effect other ships as well and give you a cross plane advantages to saying you had to train longer for a Super Carrier or a Titan that only requires lvl 5 Capital Ships is stupid and invalid.

The fact they are 2nd msot expansive is a again stupid and not valid argument because you are saying that something that costs a lot should be the best and dominate all. So what about all those 30+ billion Officer BS that we seen on killboards they should be more powerfull than super carriers some of them costed as much a titan: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=3400057

Take that kill for a refrence, If i take 200 of those exact Nightmares and put them against 100 Super Carriers i would still loose and would probably kill nothing. Saying they are expansive and should be dominant, unkillable, versatile, without a role is stupid and makes no sense only reason they are so powerful actually OP is because they were sopose to be really rare.
FHM
Doomheim
#2311 - 2011-10-20 10:56:02 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:

i agree with the fact a lone supercarrier out trying to be cocky deserves to die, but say for whatever unfortunately circumstances it gets tackled, it is now helpless without it's buddys, and with the new logoff timer he can't just log off and he'll be gone in 15 minutes so he's stuck sitting there bored out of his skull for anywhere between 5 minutes to an hour depending where he is and how many people in both sides are online and ready to fleet up and go and he can't kill the hictor, so either he has to wait for his friends to turn up, or wait for the people wanting to kill him turns up, kinda stuck in a **** situation, he should atleast be able to try to kill the hic, okay it make take him 5/10 minutes to kill it because it's not very effective against it, but he should still be able to atleast have some method of killing it. I think it's just gonna cause alot of supercarrier pilots to say I can't be arsed with this, ain't worth the effort of owning a supercarrier, and not fly them anymore.




ppl fighters signature res gets only increased to 400 which is exactly the same as that of large guns and they still (if they don't screw around with it) will have twice the racking of a small large gun
so a SC should still be able to kill a hictor just fine[/quote]

Fighters were confirmed that they are not getting nerfed because they want the super capital BLOB to continue.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2312 - 2011-10-20 11:03:27 UTC
wanking monkey girl wrote:
sc drone bay
let them have 20 fighter bombers and 20 fighters and a small drone bay with about 500m3.


That would be like an Abbadon pilot wanting to have 8 guns that can turn into Tachyons/Mega Pulse/Medium Pulse by pressing a button.

Good for the pilot? Yes.

Good for the game? Hell no.

I am glad they are going to force supercarrier pilots to make compromises, just like everyone else has to.
whaynethepain
#2313 - 2011-10-20 11:15:27 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
wanking monkey girl wrote:
sc drone bay
let them have 20 fighter bombers and 20 fighters and a small drone bay with about 500m3.


That would be like an Abbadon pilot wanting to have 8 guns that can turn into Tachyons/Mega Pulse/Medium Pulse by pressing a button.

Good for the pilot? Yes.

Good for the game? Hell no.

I am glad they are going to force supercarrier pilots to make compromises, just like everyone else has to.



Or would it be like having a Supercarrier?

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Isabella Thresher
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2314 - 2011-10-20 14:08:20 UTC
how is removing the drone bays of dreadnoughts fixing their general weakness?
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2315 - 2011-10-20 14:37:19 UTC
whaynethepain wrote:
Shadowsword wrote:
wanking monkey girl wrote:
sc drone bay
let them have 20 fighter bombers and 20 fighters and a small drone bay with about 500m3.


That would be like an Abbadon pilot wanting to have 8 guns that can turn into Tachyons/Mega Pulse/Medium Pulse by pressing a button.

Good for the pilot? Yes.

Good for the game? Hell no.

I am glad they are going to force supercarrier pilots to make compromises, just like everyone else has to.



Or would it be like having a Supercarrier?
Putting this upfront: I do not own a super carrier.

I completely agree that super carriers should be able to field a compliment of smaller drones. It is immersion-breaking to neuter such a large and capable ship and disallow the use of regular (light, medium, heavy) combat drones. While a support fleet is a highly desirable thing (see modern day carrier groups), super carriers (and modern day carriers) have smaller, point defenses to fend off pests and gnats.

CCP has no concept of moderation and, tbh, I completely disagree with their nerfing methodology. Instead, give the players the tools needed to counter powerful ships or combinations of ships.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Stealthiest
Dutch Trading Outpost
#2316 - 2011-10-21 00:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Stealthiest
not needed.
John Hand
#2317 - 2011-10-21 08:05:56 UTC
http://evedreams.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/46/
This guy sounds good.

P.S. FHM has earned himself a place on the ignore list :)
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2318 - 2011-10-21 08:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowsword
John Hand wrote:
http://evedreams.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/46/
This guy sounds good.


This guy does a lot of ranting but little arguing, bont bother to give any hard number, and back up his point only by claiming that a supercarrier should remain OP because it's expensive.

You can find this point debunked in this very thread enough times already.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2319 - 2011-10-21 09:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Dank Man wrote:
Lol Subtarian so group A correctly predicts the 2nd most expensive and 2nd hardest to train (if not hardest to train due to immense drone skills 20m+) biggest ships in the game would be very powerful in groups. Lots of people see this ship as the best for the multiple uses and circumstances, so it becomes FOTM for the vets, therefor because some noobs havnt had time to train for them and cant beat these skilled vets they cry that their ships are OP, your argument seems to be flawless.


Group A sees that supercaps have become massively powerful when deployed in large groups, gambles that CCP won't bother to rebalance them, spends a few trillion ISK to dominate 0.0 and lowsec for 12-18 months.

Group B sees that supercaps have become massively powerful when deployed in large groups, gambles that CCP will rebalance them, doesn't spend a few trillion ISK and has to weather the storm for 12-18 months.

Sorry your gamble on CCP's lethargy didn't pay off Sad

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Sarahs Sister
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2320 - 2011-10-21 09:31:10 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
So I wrote a thread about this actually got quite a negative response of which I do not understand why I still think my argument is valid.

The current balancing that is happening to supercarriers I feel is going too far, you have gone beyond balancing them, and now have made them massive underpowered with the proposed ideas, the whole purpose on why someone would purchase a supercarrier is because it is versatile, while I agree that supercarriers where too versatile and far too effective against subcapitals (having had a fleet dropped by a lone Nyx) I still believe they need a certain amount of effectiveness against subcapitals, atleast some level of self-defence, as it has been said before, now a lone supercarrier is completely screwed if caught out, some people think this is a good thing, however I disagree and think it will be the death of supercarriers. I believe that they should still retain a limited amount of effectiveness against subcapitals while not being as effective as they are now, I even proposed the idea of how to achieve this, the mechanics are already in game, give all supercarriers the same 100% bonus to Fighter and Fighter-Bomber damage that the Revenant supercarrier currently has, and remove their 3 drones per level bonus down to 1 per level, giving a maxxed out supercarrier toon the same effective damage against a capital they currently have, yet they only have 10 drones for standard drones, meaning they are no more effective than dropping a regular carrier on a group of subcapitals, therefore giving it a certain level of self-defence against a small group of subcaps while it not being massively overpowered, and still giving it it's full power against other capitals meaning it is not worthless.


I totally hate this idea I for one love having my 20 fighters/FB but im not so attached to 20 drones so my adaptation to your idea is to change the ships bonus to "3 additonal fighters and fighter bomber per skill level and 1 additional drone per skill level" then we can still use fights and still defend our selves to the same extent that Carriers do. This is not a hard system to impliment.

On the other note i am still against the EHP nurf, yes the Aeon shoul have a nuef as it take the same as a Titan but it should just be leveled off with the other SC (the Wyvern and Hel need a small buff due to being shield tanks). My reason is that the log off timer has changed the need for lower EHP as it does not matter how long it take to kill them cause they wont log off.

Love the dread changes

Not keen on Titan DD change but im not a Titan pilot so cant comment.

Sarah