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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Tithia Jadetiger
Futue te ipsum
#181 - 2013-01-09 00:44:29 UTC
Can we get 2-3 months before you fine folks at CCP deploy these changes....pretty plz. Cry

I still have characters that are working on their sp for this change and they are at least 1 month plus 6 days away from completion. :(
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2013-01-09 00:44:43 UTC
I don't see the problem with the cane either other than the loss of capacitor.

Minmatar ships are near or at the bottom of the barrel in terms of capacitor the cane was already a little high in general for a minmatar ship but losing ~550 or so seems a bit steep.

In terms of the slot layout you knew if you read the dev post a few months ago that the cane was over on the standardized slot layout CCP were working with and you lost the predictable and least damaging slot. Now you get one neut instead of 2 very little else changes. This is exactly what I was expecting.

Let me put it to you another way. If you take the current Hurricane and have to sacrifice one slot of your choosing which would you want to drop? I would drop the one high (neut).

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Kesthely
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2013-01-09 00:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
Hello,

Seeing the big influx of primarily only negative critism in the past 9 pages of comments i´m going to try to place constructive and negative feedback where i deem appropiate.

Prophecy:

At First glance the ship looks pretty decent. Compared with the Harbinger however there are a few things that seem odd.
Drone and missile boats have easier damage projection then gunboats. The Prophecy aligns faster, and is overal faster due to its lower mass. Not a con, but it seems odd.

Harbinger:

I like the changes to this ship. Its always been my favorite BC, and it seems it will remain that. Only thing thats odd in my eyes is the mass / align difference compared to the Prophecy

Ferox:

Basicly everything on this ship is improved. More Damage, easier to fit, more speed, Tougher tank. I had to check the stats 4 or 5 times just to realize how good this ship will actually become. But the first 3 times was to get over the fact it still has a range bonus. Don't get me wrong, the ship stats are awesome! But i think a lot of people still see: "range bonus, this ship is still bad"

Drake:

Is this all there doing to you? It becomes easier to fit, with less speed and utility. Its going to be fun to catch up a mwd drake, in an Afterburner hac tough.

Brutix:

This ship scares me. With its new mass, it gets up to current hurricane speed, with an excessive amount of dps. Combination of low and mids that make it adaptable to many situations. This one will make people fear gallente ships again.

Myrmidon:

This one is going to be unpredictable. The amount of different fits i can think of for this one is awesome. But why doesn't it have the capability of carrying 2 full flight of drones?

Cyclone:

Looks good, Looks bad... I honestly don't know. I can think as many pro's as con's for this ship, that i can't predict anything for it yet.

Hurricane:

It looks nerfed, but it isn't. If you look at all the other bc's this one is going to be the primary ship for a lot of pilots again.

Overall analisys:

Anticipated the primary and secondary weapon systems devide up. Ships look ok at first glance. Definatly going to get a lot of love and hate of the playerbase. In my opinion this way is a good way (you cant build almost 2 identical hurricanes, or harbingers afterall) The secondary weapon system BC's seem more powerfull in utility, except for the Ferox.

The Harbinger and Hurricane seem odd beeing the only bc's without any sort of tank bonus, Or does it seem odd that the Drake and Brutix still do have a tank bonus.

Personaly i was pleased to see the Prophecy and Cyclone changes announched, and was shocked to find the ferox still haveing a range bonus.

Things that i would change:

I would switch the Mass and align time of Prophecy and Harbinger
I would add an additional 25 drone bay capacity to the Myrmidon
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#184 - 2013-01-09 00:50:41 UTC
Tithia Jadetiger wrote:
Can we get 2-3 months before you fine folks at CCP deploy these changes....pretty plz. Cry

I still have characters that are working on their sp for this change and they are at least 1 month plus 6 days away from completion. :(


This is why Fozzie told everybody to train those skills back before Retribution released.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Mourning Souls
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2013-01-09 00:50:55 UTC
Yay, Ferox buff. No hate here.
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
#186 - 2013-01-09 00:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lledrith
what in hell.... why this change to Missiles for the Cyclone?

i though that Minmatar race was more incline into projectile than missiles...

oh yeah if this is implemented why not change the T2 counter part too while your at it.
Tithia Jadetiger
Futue te ipsum
#187 - 2013-01-09 00:54:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tithia Jadetiger wrote:
Can we get 2-3 months before you fine folks at CCP deploy these changes....pretty plz. Cry

I still have characters that are working on their sp for this change and they are at least 1 month plus 6 days away from completion. :(


This is why Fozzie told everybody to train those skills back before Retribution released.



I just resubbed and didn't learn about these changes until about 1 week ago. Sorrieee !
Bobby Mugabe
Doomheim
#188 - 2013-01-09 00:55:41 UTC
75 bandwidth on a drone boat

ya blew it
Muso Soseki
Chaotic Ninja Midgets
#189 - 2013-01-09 00:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Muso Soseki
I don't understand why everyone is crying so much about these ships being made to do the purpose they were created for.... Gangs and Fleets.... (Read: 99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules, BATTLEcruiser) So what if they are making the ship harder to use solo, it was never meant to be used solo. Be glad you had your fun and lern2adapt. It isnt like they are RUINING the ships, otherwise I would be complaining more about the drake fitting, as it is already hard to fit 7 launchers with lvl V skills. I agree with the mass increase and cap nerf because they are a passive tanking ship anyways and I see a lot of drake mw fleets. I want to see fleets with all kinds of ships, I am tired of seeing fleets of all drakes or all this ship or all that, it needs to be more of a game where fleets are composed of all classes.

On another note I can see the Cyclone using those 2 extra slots for small turrets to take care of drones... I dont agree with optimal range on the brutix, and tracking would just make it overpowered. The Prophecy seems to have a attractiveness to it now. Those of you complaining about missile boat changes on the cyclone, just understand it is just like caldari complaining that they have gun boats.(Though I've only complained because our boats haven't been much worth using until now)
B'reanna
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2013-01-09 01:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: B'reanna
Some or all of the following has probably been addressed by others but i didn't bother to read non fozzie replies.

i like what yall are doing with the proh, but it seems like y'all a nerfing the already not that great harb even more.

on the min ships i don't really like what yall are doing to the cyclone but understand why you did what you did. this is mainly due to not much caring for missiles in general not specifically the cyclone changes

the ferrox and drake dont seem to be anything unexpected.

what i am however surprised by is the changes to the myrm and the brutix

fully approve of the slot changes on the brutix but an active rep bonus? to me this seems to be a waste as it currently is. the rep bonus needs to buffed more for it to be worth even trying to have an Armour active tank. give the disaprity between active shield and active amour reps. unless there are more reaching amour tanking balancing than has so far been released, probably better to go to a dual hybrid bonus as has already been suggested.

the myrm on the other hand i can kinda see the rep bonus but still feel its probably a wasted bonus. what gets me is that while buffing the bandwidth the mrym still only has 100 bandwidth so still cant launch a full flight of heavy's or sentries surprising. with 100 your left with either only using 4 of the larger drones or doing a mix of large and med drones both of which feel weird.

edit:
so after running the math on the harb assuming lvl 5 skills between dropping the 1 turret and the 5% increase in dmg bonus
the net change is a 7% buff in dps along with a bit better fitting in return for increase in mass and align time. at anything less than lvl 5 skills its a net nerf in dps. in addition to this the biggest problem with the harb as always been getting in range to do dps which with the proposed changes would be even harder to do. so for a balance that's supposed to help level the playing field for newer players seems to me in the harbs case be a net nerf to an already lackluster ship.
Mund Richard
#191 - 2013-01-09 01:05:15 UTC
B'reanna wrote:
what gets me is that while buffing the bandwidth the mrym still only has 100 bandwidth so still cant launch a full flight of heavy's or sentries surprising. with 100 your left with either only using 4 of the larger drones or doing a mix of large and med drones both of which feel weird.
Could be worse, could be 95, taking away the choice.Roll
Could be better.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Bobby Mugabe
Doomheim
#192 - 2013-01-09 01:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobby Mugabe
The cyclone change makes no sense therefore I propose a change

Cyclone:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile turret and Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boosting amount
Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+1), 5 turrets, 5 Launchers
Fittings: 1200 PWG (-10), 525 CPU (+100)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4750(+355) / 4000(+94) / 3500(+81)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 2250(+62.5) / 592s(+8.67s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 165 / 0.704 / 12500000 / 8.2s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 (+10) / 50 (+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 220 / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Ladar
Signature radius: 250 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 450 (-25)
Ben Li
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2013-01-09 01:19:37 UTC
CCP hates neuts so badly...
Cane loses a highslot just after it lost PG

As did rupture.

Tempest is next?

Derp.
Mund Richard
#194 - 2013-01-09 01:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Bobby Mugabe wrote:
The cyclone change makes no sense therefore I propose a change
Cyclone:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile turret and Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boosting amount

Did you just invent the double bonused bonus?
...
And it would work, quite possibly.
Hell, with all the T2 recons and the like, I wouldn't mind their split weapon system bonuses taking up only one slot.
...
Ain't happening.

Plus, that cyclone would be an awesome wild card the way you suggest, 5 each bonused hardpoint and bonused tank.
By that school of thought, the Phoon could be a Projectile/Missile and drone bonused ship...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#195 - 2013-01-09 01:29:39 UTC
meh. seems to be reducing EHP and usefulless. No elimination of split turret type loadouts, which we asked for. Active tanking still sucks, unless you intend to fix that later (which you should just tell us now if you intend that so we can take it into account when evaulating the ships).


Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#196 - 2013-01-09 01:40:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dear Capsuleers.
Two utility highslots is not the same as split weapons.
All the best.
-Love Fozzie
You're forgetting the previous version of the merlin Big smile

I like most of the modifications :
- the drake is fine
- the ferox looks interesting, but it may be lacking a bit of PWG to fit some 250mm
- the harbinger is fine, adaptive nano plating instead of EANMs but a good DPS ship
- the myrmidon is still a myrmidon, move along
- the cane is a cane instead of a mini tempest of doom.
- 6th low slot for the brutix woot woot woot !

But :
- the cyclone may need a 6th launcher
- the prophecy. Too slow, too tanky, and too low on PWG. And looking too much like the myrmidon. I would say, give it a 125m^3 bandwith, an even huger bay, and give it a sentry bonus instead of a damage bonus for all drones.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#197 - 2013-01-09 01:49:38 UTC
Razefummel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Cyclone is swapping its projectile bonus for a missile RoF bonus, giving it the ability to spew missile of any damage type desired. This should help provide more variety of ships to Minmatar pilots who enjoy Breacher/Talwar/Bellicose gameplay and want to go bigger.
...


There are some Points i dont get yet...

Minatar and Gallente are Allys right?
Caldaris and Amarr are Allys too right?

Why did you gave MISSILES to Minmatar and DRONES to the Amarrians?

Isn´t ist funny that Minmatars got an DMG Bonus for Missiles in All DMG Types in form of RoF Bonus and The Caldaris keeps the Kinetic Bonus? Don´t get me wrong, but i think the Minmatar-Users realy enjoy its Proiectile Turrets and an good Option for Angel-Ships and also the Gallentean Drone Boats in that Skillingtree.

Therfore the Caldari-Users share theyre weaponary with there Enemys ... Hybrid Turrets with Gallente and Missiles in the Future with the Minmatars.

I´m fearing the Day the Battleships will be "balanced".

I wonder how long it takes to nerf the Caldari completly because Gallente and Minmatar will do more DPS than any Caldariship will do... so after that "Missile Change" RANGE don´t will be the Argument to use Caldari-Missileboats like the Caldari Turretships incase of the Gallente Variations.

Btw. If the Tengu is realy the Problem why don´t fix just that Ship in case of nerfing an whole Race?

I´m just wondering.

Yes! Let's base all balance on silly stories!

That aside, I think Hans knows something we don't, leading to the Brutix and Myrm keeping the rep amount bonus. Looking forward to the Proph and Cyclone. Only thing for the cyclone is I wish it would get a 6th launcher but a 25mb bandwidth. I hate having to use medium drones to get the most damage out of a ship.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#198 - 2013-01-09 01:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: IrJosy
Zagdul wrote:
IrJosy wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Brutix:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% Hybrid Turret Optimal Range (or tracking)
Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H, 5 M (+1), 5 L, 7 turrets
Fittings: 1200 PWG (+50), 435 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4000 / 4000 / 5000(+117)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 3000(+656.25) / 789s(+164s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 155 / 0.704(+0.0352) / 12250000 (-1,000,000) / 8.1s (-0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 200 / 7
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 305 (+5)
Cargo capacity: 475 (+75)


Edit: This would make the Brutix a very versatile ship and allow it to be used in many circumstances. It'd truly make it a 'brawling' ship that newbies can get into pretty easily.

The changes I've adjusted remove it's useless armor repair bonus and give it something that actually benefits the ship and it's design. I like bonus on the myrm however so why are we cookie cutting that on to the brutix? This also gives it the choice, it can be shield or armor.


too much like talos


And?

Why not have a medium hybrid transition ship for newer pilots who can't use the T2 large hybrids yet?




Eh ok you got a point. I am just very unhappy with the gallente BC's (except talos). Luckily I can use pirate or other races ships.
Mund Richard
#199 - 2013-01-09 01:56:34 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
That aside, I think Hans knows something we don't, leading to the Brutix and Myrm keeping the rep amount bonus.
If so, I hope we'll also hear about it soon, else we are seeing only a part of things.
Dibblerette wrote:
Only thing for the cyclone is I wish it would get a 6th launcher but a 25mb bandwidth. I hate having to use medium drones to get the most damage out of a ship.
Goes in concert with my disliking a 50/50 bandwidth+bay and calling for +1 launcher, while yours also takes away some?

I like it!

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Mund Richard
#200 - 2013-01-09 02:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Zagdul wrote:
IrJosy wrote:
too much like talos

And?
Why not have a medium hybrid transition ship for newer pilots who can't use the T2 large hybrids yet?

Well, why justify a ship just by being useful only until you have a month's worth of extra training?

Someone had an interesting idea of Talos with falloff bonus focusing on the kiting aspect, and Brutix with tracking instead for the inyourface brawling.
Not sure how that would work though, never flew one.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.