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Today's RR (stealth) Bug Fix, and its consequences

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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#61 - 2013-01-09 02:19:55 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Jake Patton wrote:
I found out this changed the hard way, barely made it out of the fight in one piece... Note to CCP: Make sure you add ALL the changes to the changelog.

I even think CCP should extend the Limited Engagement mechanics to neutral logistics. This will make it more or less how it used to be before Retribution. It just doesn't make sense that assisting a player in an active war makes you a legal target to everyone.


TBH, my problem is not with the neutral RR change. My problem is that you can't legally help an alliance mate. This is literally pants-on-head ********.


Ally system comes to mind. Besides that, aren't you actively engaged in a war as an Alliance member anyway; shouldn't the war be transferred to the Alliance, or required to be declared on the Alliance? I thought this was how it worked, and don't believe I recall anything about a Corp within an Alliance being able to be decced independently. 
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Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#62 - 2013-01-09 02:25:19 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Jake Patton wrote:
I found out this changed the hard way, barely made it out of the fight in one piece... Note to CCP: Make sure you add ALL the changes to the changelog.

I even think CCP should extend the Limited Engagement mechanics to neutral logistics. This will make it more or less how it used to be before Retribution. It just doesn't make sense that assisting a player in an active war makes you a legal target to everyone.


TBH, my problem is not with the neutral RR change. My problem is that you can't legally help an alliance mate. This is literally pants-on-head ********.


Ally system comes to mind. Besides that, aren't you actively engaged in a war as an Alliance member anyway; shouldn't the war be transferred to the Alliance, or required to be declared on the Alliance? I thought this was how it worked, and don't believe I recall anything about a Corp within an Alliance being able to be decced independently.


I'm pretty sure you stopped reading the thread after the third post. If you had read farther (and maybe even comprehended what you HAD read), you wouldn't have posted. It took me a lot of effort to recall my heavy troll from this post.

No, you cannot war dec individual corporations within an alliance. War deccing individual corps within an alliance isn't even the subject matter of this thread, nor is it relevant. The issue was RRing an alliance member who wasn't in your specific corporation, while involved in a war engagement causing the RRing pilot to gain a suspect flag.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#63 - 2013-01-09 02:28:31 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Jake Patton wrote:
I found out this changed the hard way, barely made it out of the fight in one piece... Note to CCP: Make sure you add ALL the changes to the changelog.

I even think CCP should extend the Limited Engagement mechanics to neutral logistics. This will make it more or less how it used to be before Retribution. It just doesn't make sense that assisting a player in an active war makes you a legal target to everyone.


TBH, my problem is not with the neutral RR change. My problem is that you can't legally help an alliance mate. This is literally pants-on-head ********.


Ally system comes to mind. Besides that, aren't you actively engaged in a war as an Alliance member anyway; shouldn't the war be transferred to the Alliance, or required to be declared on the Alliance? I thought this was how it worked, and don't believe I recall anything about a Corp within an Alliance being able to be decced independently.



keep on rollin brother.
Chani Liet-Keynes
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-01-09 02:33:43 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Jake Patton wrote:
I found out this changed the hard way, barely made it out of the fight in one piece... Note to CCP: Make sure you add ALL the changes to the changelog.

I even think CCP should extend the Limited Engagement mechanics to neutral logistics. This will make it more or less how it used to be before Retribution. It just doesn't make sense that assisting a player in an active war makes you a legal target to everyone.


TBH, my problem is not with the neutral RR change. My problem is that you can't legally help an alliance mate. This is literally pants-on-head ********.


Ally system comes to mind. Besides that, aren't you actively engaged in a war as an Alliance member anyway; shouldn't the war be transferred to the Alliance, or required to be declared on the Alliance? I thought this was how it worked, and don't believe I recall anything about a Corp within an Alliance being able to be decced independently.


I'm pretty sure you stopped reading the thread after the third post. If you had read farther (and maybe even comprehended what you HAD read), you wouldn't have posted. It took me a lot of effort to recall my heavy troll from this post.

No, you cannot war dec individual corporations within an alliance. War deccing individual corps within an alliance isn't even the subject matter of this thread, nor is it relevant. The issue was RRing an alliance member who wasn't in your specific corporation, while involved in a war engagement causing the RRing pilot to gain a suspect flag.



Posting what is effectively the same thread in multiple subforums isn't useful
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#65 - 2013-01-09 02:43:09 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Jake Patton wrote:
I found out this changed the hard way, barely made it out of the fight in one piece... Note to CCP: Make sure you add ALL the changes to the changelog.

I even think CCP should extend the Limited Engagement mechanics to neutral logistics. This will make it more or less how it used to be before Retribution. It just doesn't make sense that assisting a player in an active war makes you a legal target to everyone.


TBH, my problem is not with the neutral RR change. My problem is that you can't legally help an alliance mate. This is literally pants-on-head ********.


Ally system comes to mind. Besides that, aren't you actively engaged in a war as an Alliance member anyway; shouldn't the war be transferred to the Alliance, or required to be declared on the Alliance? I thought this was how it worked, and don't believe I recall anything about a Corp within an Alliance being able to be decced independently.


I'm pretty sure you stopped reading the thread after the third post. If you had read farther (and maybe even comprehended what you HAD read), you wouldn't have posted. It took me a lot of effort to recall my heavy troll from this post.

No, you cannot war dec individual corporations within an alliance. War deccing individual corps within an alliance isn't even the subject matter of this thread, nor is it relevant. The issue was RRing an alliance member who wasn't in your specific corporation, while involved in a war engagement causing the RRing pilot to gain a suspect flag.


The issue you mentioned is what seemed so odd about it, then I realized you must be RRing a Suspect, and getting the resulting flag that comes with that. There is no reason that you should be able to RR someone in your Corp or Alliance, in any situation, that is a suspect and not get this flag.

Unless of course you're suggesting that you should be able to RR Suspects and Criminals in the same Corp or Alliance at any time, in war or outside of it and suffer no consequence, in which case I'd call you a troll, or just think you were feeling the brimming mug of your self entitlement.

Honestly though, if you posted this today, and I assume you did as I'm certain this issue wasn't fixed yesterday, and can't honestly even recall what you posted or why and had to dredge up the details of it after such a long time, I can honestly say I wonder at your state of physical and mental well being.

That first post was at least a page long and written with at least a little effort and attention to detail; how could you possibly not remember it in the same day? Possibly even only hours later?

Not suggesting you're crazy; just that your memory isn't perhaps what it should be for some reason.
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Paul Maken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-01-09 03:01:57 UTC
Is this related to the way in which I keep getting suspect flagged via RR when fighting in 0.0?

It seems very odd that Concord doesn't care about shooting people in 0.0 but does care about remote repping them.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#67 - 2013-01-09 03:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Mars Theran wrote:
I'm pretty sure you stopped reading the thread after the third post. If you had read farther (and maybe even comprehended what you HAD read), you wouldn't have posted. It took me a lot of effort to recall my heavy troll from this post.

No, you cannot war dec individual corporations within an alliance. War deccing individual corps within an alliance isn't even the subject matter of this thread, nor is it relevant. The issue was RRing an alliance member who wasn't in your specific corporation, while involved in a war engagement causing the RRing pilot to gain a suspect flag.

The issue you mentioned is what seemed so odd about it, then I realized you must be RRing a Suspect, and getting the resulting flag that comes with that. There is no reason that you should be able to RR someone in your Corp or Alliance, in any situation, that is a suspect and not get this flag.

Unless of course you're suggesting that you should be able to RR Suspects and Criminals in the same Corp or Alliance at any time, in war or outside of it and suffer no consequence, in which case I'd call you a troll, or just think you were feeling the brimming mug of your self entitlement.

Honestly though, if you posted this today, and I assume you did as I'm certain this issue wasn't fixed yesterday, and can't honestly even recall what you posted or why and had to dredge up the details of it after such a long time, I can honestly say I wonder at your state of physical and mental well being.

That first post was at least a page long and written with at least a little effort and attention to detail; how could you possibly not remember it in the same day? Possibly even only hours later?

Not suggesting you're crazy; just that your memory isn't perhaps what it should be for some reason.


No, you are not repping a suspect, the issue is in relation to fighting war targets. In that instance, no one is suspect, and no limited engagements exist. The only flags you receive are the weapons flag and the pvp flag. Currently, if the logi is not in the same corp as the person they are repping, they will get a suspect flag, allowing the opponent to aggress them. However, if the logi is the same corp as the person being repped (meaning they are already at war with the opponent, thus being a legal target for them), the logi will not go suspect.

The issue was that if the logi was in a different corp, but same alliance (meaning they are still at war with the opponent, and thus a legal target), they would still go suspect. The point is that this is detrimental to alliances and not needed for the opponent to be able to fight his adversaries.

Another interesting consequence of this change, if a corp joins a war as an ally to the defender, and they rep the defender in a fight, the logi goes suspect, even though they are part of the same war.

As a side note, it seems that you think Tah'ris and I are the same person. I can assure you that we are not.
Revman Zim
Infinite Point
The Initiative.
#68 - 2013-01-09 05:00:26 UTC
Possibly related note... not sure if it pertains, but....

I was in a fleet a day ago (in null), I killed a few with the fleet then was primaried and killed. I noticed on my KM that the logi that are in my alliance and in my fleet (but not in my corp), were listed on the KM for appying reps.

That seems odd to me.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15821804
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#69 - 2013-01-09 06:25:10 UTC
Quick question. If you are RR a different corp that is in a war, but NOT shooting at those war targets, do you still get suspect?

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-01-09 06:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I was crossing the street next to this thread and nearly got hit by a waaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

Look, Neutral RR or anything is cheating as far as I am concerned, and if t was OK, then everybody claiming to be a leet PVPer would be doing it.


Look, someone who didn't actually read the thread.

This has nothing to do with neutral RR.

Let's say you have an alliance X that's under wardec from corp Y.
You have pilot A, who's in one corp in X, pilot B, who's in another corp in X, and pilot C who's in corp Y.
Pilot C shoots pilot A and pilot A shoots pilot C, which they both can legally do because they're war targets to each other. Pilot B is also a war target to pilot C but decides to RR pilot A who is in the same alliance (and thus under the same wardec) but not under the same corp. He is by definition not neutral.
Under the current mechanics, pilot C, in helping out a fellow pilot under the same wardec as he is, becomes free to shoot by everyone around.

That's pretty broken.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#71 - 2013-01-09 06:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Ashterothi wrote:
Quick question. If you are RR a different corp that is in a war, but NOT shooting at those war targets, do you still get suspect?


Players A and B are in different corps. Neither character is in a limited engagement.

If Player A has a PVP flag (but no suspect/criminal flag), and Player B reps him, Player B receives a suspect flag.

If Player A does not have a PVP flag (nor suspect/criminal flag), and Player B reps him, Player B receives no flags.

This is the case regardless of how the PVP flag is obtained, be it via limited engagement, corp aggression, or war target aggression.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#72 - 2013-01-09 06:38:49 UTC
Just wanted to double check before I made myself look like an idiot in my article :)

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-01-09 06:52:55 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
There has to be a clearer and more user-friendly way to design and implement this stuff.


There is: Make it so if you use a mod on another player (regardless of type) in high sec you are flagged to everyone.

Simple as hell right? The system is exactly as complex as it needs to be (bugs aside) to meet the requirements provided. It's possible to make it simpler but not without allowing neutral RR or making all conflicts global.
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
#74 - 2013-01-09 06:58:44 UTC
Incursion runners would lose their ****. Must not anger the carebears.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#75 - 2013-01-09 07:52:37 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
I'm pretty sure you stopped reading the thread after the third post. If you had read farther (and maybe even comprehended what you HAD read), you wouldn't have posted. It took me a lot of effort to recall my heavy troll from this post.

No, you cannot war dec individual corporations within an alliance. War deccing individual corps within an alliance isn't even the subject matter of this thread, nor is it relevant. The issue was RRing an alliance member who wasn't in your specific corporation, while involved in a war engagement causing the RRing pilot to gain a suspect flag.

The issue you mentioned is what seemed so odd about it, then I realized you must be RRing a Suspect, and getting the resulting flag that comes with that. There is no reason that you should be able to RR someone in your Corp or Alliance, in any situation, that is a suspect and not get this flag.

Unless of course you're suggesting that you should be able to RR Suspects and Criminals in the same Corp or Alliance at any time, in war or outside of it and suffer no consequence, in which case I'd call you a troll, or just think you were feeling the brimming mug of your self entitlement.

Honestly though, if you posted this today, and I assume you did as I'm certain this issue wasn't fixed yesterday, and can't honestly even recall what you posted or why and had to dredge up the details of it after such a long time, I can honestly say I wonder at your state of physical and mental well being.

That first post was at least a page long and written with at least a little effort and attention to detail; how could you possibly not remember it in the same day? Possibly even only hours later?

Not suggesting you're crazy; just that your memory isn't perhaps what it should be for some reason.


No, you are not repping a suspect, the issue is in relation to fighting war targets. In that instance, no one is suspect, and no limited engagements exist. The only flags you receive are the weapons flag and the pvp flag. Currently, if the logi is not in the same corp as the person they are repping, they will get a suspect flag, allowing the opponent to aggress them. However, if the logi is the same corp as the person being repped (meaning they are already at war with the opponent, thus being a legal target for them), the logi will not go suspect.

The issue was that if the logi was in a different corp, but same alliance (meaning they are still at war with the opponent, and thus a legal target), they would still go suspect. The point is that this is detrimental to alliances and not needed for the opponent to be able to fight his adversaries.

Another interesting consequence of this change, if a corp joins a war as an ally to the defender, and they rep the defender in a fight, the logi goes suspect, even though they are part of the same war.

As a side note, it seems that you think Tah'ris and I are the same person. I can assure you that we are not.


Thanks. I read a little further along and read CCP Masterplan's response. Also, the OP was a little unclear, but I get the point now; just never encountered it.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#76 - 2013-01-09 07:56:36 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:
Possibly related note... not sure if it pertains, but....

I was in a fleet a day ago (in null), I killed a few with the fleet then was primaried and killed. I noticed on my KM that the logi that are in my alliance and in my fleet (but not in my corp), were listed on the KM for appying reps.

That seems odd to me.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15821804


They're not actually listed on the kill from what I saw, but as being involved; something I always figured should be on the killmails. I suppose it counts ships in fleet as there were more Rokh's listed as involved, than actually on the killmail.
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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2013-01-09 08:05:00 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:
Possibly related note... not sure if it pertains, but....

I was in a fleet a day ago (in null), I killed a few with the fleet then was primaried and killed. I noticed on my KM that the logi that are in my alliance and in my fleet (but not in my corp), were listed on the KM for appying reps.

That seems odd to me.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15821804

It appears these logi pilots were whoring on your KM.

Or maybe they had smartbombs and you were within range.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Merch BAYLOR
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-01-09 08:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Merch BAYLOR
*removed*

And I failed to remember one essential detail that the person below me pointed out....

Yes sir, I was an idiot...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-01-09 08:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Merch BAYLOR wrote:
So what the OP is saying is that while they can no longer exploit neutral RR-ing on wars, to exploit the mechanichs and have a repper that CANNOT be attacked, they want the workaround of having an alliance member outside their corp do that instead!

GTFO!!

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
The alliance member outside of the corp is in the same war as the person he's helping (since you can't wardec single corps in alliances, you can only wardec the entire alliance at once), so they can be attacked by the war target at any time regardless.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-01-09 09:17:49 UTC
NOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!

Alliance members are not visible to warring corps, other corps from the alliance aren't involved in the war. So they are neutral to the attacking party and must not interfere.

ELSE - goonswarm FED is going to RR their 10 member corp. And bad things will happen. Because of big.

IF you want to RR, extend the war. Then you are shown as a legit target and can not bring surprise RR against your enemy. So your enemy is aware of your total count before engaging.

It is most fair and should as it is

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again