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New NPC AI, how about no?

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Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-01-13 23:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Theron Urian
If CCP is so interested in hooking new players and keeping them, why do they seem to not want to touch PvE with a 10 foot pole? And when they do touch PvE its these little silly changes like the "new AI" and then call it done.

Here is a fact for you, the majority of new players will start with and get the first impression of the game from PvE.

Overhaul the whole PvE system, there are tons of threads and ideas all over the forums to take ideas from. Hook them new players and get them in to the game and roll in new subscriptions.

You can put as much info in to the new player experience as you want to help with the initial "learning curve" but if the content that they will be doing is not fun you will never keep them with the promise of "Keep going! PvP, incursions, and other things you can do once you have either purchased plex or grind the boring PvE are great!"

Alpha striking 20-40 red +'s is not "entertaining PvE"
Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#242 - 2013-01-14 01:11:21 UTC
Today I tried L4 Worlds Collide in my Paladin. Fit is cap stable with 2 faction webs, mega pulse II, and no tracking modules.

My mission alt has over 100m sp, so skills are not a problem.

I cleared the angel side first, had no problems at all, using double 90% webs I could kill even the elite angel frigs with mega pulse II easily. Never used drones at all in angel side.

Cleared the mercenary room easily, no need for drones.

Went back for the sansha side, expected ewar problems but wanted to try anyway.
Cleared the first sansha room easily, sniped the frigates and other ships from 55km, no need for drones.
Second sansha room started out ok, cleared out the first 2 groups, but the 3rd group by the gate gave me problems. I was hit with 1-3 tracking disrupters. It took a little longer, but I was able to still clear all ships within web range. After that, it only left 2 battleships and a few elite cruisers. The cruisers were unkillable due to tracking disruption and stronger tanks than I remember. I sat there for about 45 minutes shooting one sansha cruiser that was I think 38km away. The tracking disruption never stopped, even when the icon was gone, I repeatedly checked my gun tracking and it was like 0.01. Finally put out 3 sentry drones, and still could not break the tank of the elite cruisers. Their stronger rep rates combined with the endless ewar just caused too many shots to miss. I gave up eventually and warped out.

I really hope CCP will fix this very frustrating ewar problem with the sansha's.

Is it wrong to expect that I can successfully mission in Amarr space using Amarr ships??

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#243 - 2013-01-14 01:24:12 UTC
Yes it is. Dont you know that in amarr space you should use Caldari missile boats? /sarcasm
Btw on a side note are serps still thermal weak? I actually began to think about moving this char to gallente space.
Mund Richard
#244 - 2013-01-14 01:33:30 UTC
Akuma Tsukai wrote:
Yes it is. Dont you know that in amarr space you should use Caldari missile boats? /sarcasm
Btw on a side note are serps still thermal weak? I actually began to think about moving this char to gallente space.

Last time I shot some serpentis as an experiment, the kinetic missiles did more damage consistently (assuming I didn't have so many defenders in a row) on a non-kinetic bonused ship, thermal secondary weakness.

The named guy they have though, has a tough kinetic resist, so shoot Therm there.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#245 - 2013-01-14 01:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Akuma Tsukai
I just cant help but **** up with the idiocity posted by one of the devs. So....

We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. - following is good, how about getting of your asses and actually fixing something?


We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence. - you do know that PVE and PVP are 2 different things? In case you missed, even abbreviation is different. Also if they need to be closer, start by greatly reducing number of ships, then increase their damage and value, introduce builds and tanks variations (list goes on for about 5 km) and generally start to work instead of sitting still. By the way if youre into merging PVP and PVE into one i reccomend you learn the history, aka Ultima Online.

However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue. - And you have failed miserably. Initial patch was a huge nerf to drones but second patch nerfed it even further. Now i cant even tank BSes with my light drones, thank you oh so much my dear {Snip. -- ISD Lack OfFaith}.

NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution

This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. - you gotta be blind and not play yor own game not to notice an issue with ALL ewar. TD just being most annoying. Oh and btw, ******* up ewar and ewar counter (drones) at the same time was a brilliant idea. {Snip. -- ISD Lack OfFaith}


  • Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
    • [/quote][/list]
    We hope that helps a bit     - and you ****** up again. Ill just link my usual thread again, its still the same out there. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2389092#post2389092

    Have a nice day.

    As per the forum rules, please try to post constructively, be respectful, and avoid ranting. Also, personal attacks and threats on CCP staff are not tolerated. -- ISD LackOfFaith

    My heart bleeds for you. Nose too. Unfortunately CCP ignored all constructive criticism on that issue, thus loosing respect. Ya know, cause, effect, all that stuff.
    Hazen Koraka
    HK Enterprises
    #246 - 2013-01-14 08:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Hazen Koraka
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello folks,

    We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.



    How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?

    Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.

    Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
    Signal11th
    #247 - 2013-01-14 09:35:08 UTC
    Hazen Koraka wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello folks,

    We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.



    How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?

    Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.



    You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.

    God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
    Sam Korak
    Doomheim
    #248 - 2013-01-14 09:50:47 UTC
    They could at least increase the ISK/hour for missions now with the new AI.
    Funky Lazers
    Funk Freakers
    #249 - 2013-01-14 10:00:46 UTC
    Signal11th wrote:
    Hazen Koraka wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello folks,

    We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.



    How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?

    Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.



    You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.



    Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.

    Whatever.
    ISD TYPE40
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #250 - 2013-01-14 10:04:00 UTC
    Forum Rules wrote:


    29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.

    There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.


    30. Rumor threads and posts

    Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.




    Some posts have been removed from this thread for breaching the above rules, subsequently any replies to those posts will also have been removed, though not for breaching any rules themselves. Please note that attacks on CCP staff and baseless rumour posting in an attempt to stir up trouble is not constructive and serves only to disrupt the workings of these forums.

    Anyone found to be repeatedly in breach of the rules of these forums can and will be issued with warnings and/or a forum ban of indeterminate length. Please have a little respect for the other forum users and CCP staff when posting on these forums, thank you - ISD Type40.

    [b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
    CCP Falcon
    #251 - 2013-01-14 10:57:52 UTC
    This thread has been cleaned a little.

    So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.

    Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.

    Be aware of this and think before you post.

    CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

    Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
    Duke Atreus
    Doomheim
    #252 - 2013-01-14 11:03:11 UTC
    CCP Falcon wrote:
    This thread has been cleaned a little.

    So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.

    Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.

    Be aware of this and think before you post.



    Do you have any plans to rethink about NPC AI changes? I'm not saying we need to revert to the old way but there needs to be some improvements.

    It seems like you made these changes with very little testing, you can't deny that so please tell us your thoughts on the matter.
    Turelus
    Utassi Security
    The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
    #253 - 2013-01-14 11:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
    Guer wrote:
    CCP PvE design:

    1. Put a single player ship against dozens of NPCs.
    2. NPCs are stupid and and various tactics exist to exploit their weaknesses. Mission design and payouts balanced along these lines.
    3. Unhappy that NPCs don't behave more like players, as if this was ever some kind of goal.
    4. Make NPCs behave more like players. Explode drones, stronger ewar.
    5. Don't adjust npc spawn numbers, don't adjust npc ewar chance, don't implement stacking penalties for ewar or webs.
    6. Expect drone users to play the tank-dps-healer game without any aggro management tools.
    7. Tell players to enjoy their more interesting gameplay.

    Pretty much this, the current state of PVE content wasn't really designed for "NPC's behave like players and have stronger EWAR" CCP need to take the time to go over all the PVE content and take note of what should be changed to keep it up to date with current changes.
    This isn't likely to happen however as PVE is considered a taboo in EVE, think of the rage posts if the was a PVE content patch.

    CCP Falcon wrote:
    This thread has been cleaned a little.

    So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.

    Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.

    Be aware of this and think before you post.



    I'm happy to agree, I'm frustrated to hell with some of the changes as it's really keeping me from logging in every day and making that ISK for PVP.
    However attacks on CCP personally are a bit far, what we need is a nice sit down where we start taking each issue and talking about it, I know you're not really in charge of the changes Falcon but as the last Dev to post is there any way we could have a Developer start a thread in Features and Ideas or Test Server Feedback where custructive debate and theory crafting can happen for the future of PVE in EVE?

    CCPs choice to make it more like PVP is nice but maybe we should have a seperate bracket of missions for that? "Advanced Combat Missions" some players do enjoy the braindead PVE we kind of have ATM because it's easy to do to fund skillbooks or ships and is nice to sit back and chat while doing it.

    I for one rarely sit and chat in corp and be social while in an actual PVP fight, I don't want PVP to require so much focus I can't speak with my friends while I make ISK.

    Turelus CEO Utassi Security
    Rip Minner
    ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
    #254 - 2013-01-14 11:23:56 UTC
    The way I see it. Is this is low sec all over again.

    Wait let me explain.

    I and alot of other people use to live in low sec and have fun. Now and for long time it's been mostly dead.

    The scaning changes maid by CCP for wormholes killed low sec. 20mins to scan you out gives you time to do mission if your good.
    30sec-5mins depending on skill of pilot scaning and ship/ships being used in mission. No time to do mission.

    There for you got to get your friends together to lock down system to do freaking missions. Well I think we all know if you can pull that off in low sec your not going to have much problems in Null sec were it's better isk right.

    Well now new AI changes are If you can pull it off in Null sec you can pull it off in wh so gtfo into wormholes same thing better isk.

    See just like low sec.

    Just differnt game changes. Net results are basicly the same.

    So now we got if you can do it in low sec mite as well move to null sec to find out if you can do it in null sec mite as well just move to wh.

    WTF!

    Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
    Mund Richard
    #255 - 2013-01-14 11:25:01 UTC
    Signal11th wrote:
    Hazen Koraka wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello folks,
    We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
    How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?
    Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.
    You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.

    Except when you have more than one person in fleet with you (you know, some people suggested when full stage agro and the rest was happening that L4s are fine should be done in fleet), had shouts going around on coms that all drones be recalled just to be safe and to avoid turning this into a whac-a-mole for both the rats and us and on the side explodifying our hoped profits.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Caldari Citizen20121206
    Great Eastern
    #256 - 2013-01-14 11:26:37 UTC
    CCP Falcon wrote:
    This thread has been cleaned a little.

    So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.

    Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.

    Be aware of this and think before you post.





    NO offense was made by our behalf, seems that the statement that our trust is beggining to pass away is considered a threat and an attack on the ISD and DEV team. I am sorry for offending you with the truth. Without any offense against anyone, i feel like my feedback doesnt matter, here is a link that is appropriate for what was happening here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship


    Your humble avarage costumer.
    Funky Lazers
    Funk Freakers
    #257 - 2013-01-14 11:42:59 UTC
    Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
    i feel like my feedback doesnt matter


    My guess it really doesn't, as long as you pay money.

    I think the only thing will help here is some kind of mass unsub.
    In this case CCP might change something. Otherwise your feedback or opinion doesn't matter, just like mine.

    Whatever.
    Signal11th
    #258 - 2013-01-14 11:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
    Funky Lazers wrote:
    Signal11th wrote:
    Hazen Koraka wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello folks,

    We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.



    How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?

    Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.



    You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.



    Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.



    How? I've lost one Garde 2 and one warrior 2 after ruuning probably 20 sites and a couple of escalations. Even the warrior could have been avoided because I was watching a film at the time.

    To be honest though I do find the new AI a bit of a ballache as it all it really does is make my completion of sites take longer whilst not activiely making the experience anymore interesting or rewarding.

    God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
    Mund Richard
    #259 - 2013-01-14 11:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Signal11th wrote:
    Funky Lazers wrote:
    Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.
    How? I've lost one Garde 2 and one warrior 2 after ruuning probably 20 sites and a couple of escalations. Even the warrior could have been avoided because I was watching a film at the time.

    Full room switch, rat scram+web, it's not that hard to see that it can happen.

    If you stop using mediums/heavies and rely on small ones only after cleaning out the elite frigs/cruisers (or if they are in thight orbit), and sentries with your fingers on the recall drones hotkey, you have really good chances of not loosing any most of the time.

    Great gameplay improvement. Roll

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Signal11th
    #260 - 2013-01-14 11:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
    Can you change the above quote please because I didn't actually write that.

    God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!