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New NPC AI, how about no?

First post First post
Author
Larloch TheAncient
Freindly Mining Corporation
#281 - 2013-01-14 14:06:34 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post

That's what I solo'ed yesterday, don't know if its a 8 or 10 but there was a torp that keep hitting me for 10k every 25 seconds.




DED rating Unrated



that is an unrated not ded plex. its easier by far from any ded plex.

ps. sorry for double posting



Well I HAVE solo'd 6/10, 8/10, and the nonrated ones after path, against SANSHA of all the races. Its far from impossible.


(Can't run the 10/10 sites because I don't have leadership V)
Mund Richard
#282 - 2013-01-14 14:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Larloch TheAncient wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
You CHOSE to live in a TD space, CHOOSE to go into WH space, I didn't choose to have my drones repeatedly aimed at, when I started training a Gallente toon a year ago.
I should go into WH space, sounds more and more fun, and rewarding.
You chose to use the drones in the new missions, you chose to send them 20+KM from your ship repeatedly. You also chose to run missions solo ensuring that your drones are the only ones on field.


How is knowing what you are going against in WH space (and preparing for it)
similar to rolling a toon day 1 with how things were back then, and then having the playfield totally change suddenly, upsetting a year's worth of training?

And yes, after the change
I don't send out my light drones out to more than 15 km
I don't even put medium/heavy drones in my bay (except ECM)
I use mainly sentries (well, no change there)
I use more toons, so that the other battleship gets attacked instead of drones


In all honesty, if I look at what you said as advice, it's quite valuable.
And while I have been doing so already, others may find it useful.

"new missions" - I wish they *were* new.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Marillio
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#283 - 2013-01-14 14:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Marillio
*snip*
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#284 - 2013-01-14 14:20:33 UTC
Frankly, i dont believe that. 8/10 needs at least 1000 tank and near 1600 dps, a single ship unless its full x type or officer fitted is not capable of that. If youre refferring to that bug, that if you move out 160km+ from the structure at the end at it will stop repairing than i have good news for you: You just exploited a bad game mechanic. as for a 6/10, it is possible to solo it with an overtanked ship with little to none dps, you still need a lot of faction modules on that ship and it will be a hell of a long run (couple of hours) but ITIS POSSIBLE. Tough i wouldnt call it clever. And for a 10/10, well that you simply cant solo, because of the overpowering last room with its 50,000 dmg torpedo + full pocket agro.


Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2013-01-14 14:28:35 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post

That's what I solo'ed yesterday, don't know if its a 8 or 10 but there was a torp that keep hitting me for 10k every 25 seconds.




DED rating Unrated



that is an unrated not ded plex. its easier by far from any ded plex.

ps. sorry for double posting


This is untrue not. Fleet Staging point start out as an unrated plex. It' is now the 9/10 DED plex. CCP made it that way to avoid putting a real 9/10 in.

All Fleet Staging Points tell you in the description they are "DED 9/10s" . You get the description as a pop up when you warp to the 1st grate of Fleet Staging Point 1.




Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#286 - 2013-01-14 14:33:22 UTC
"My main problem is not the drone change or the missile nerve or the EWAR, it is the aggression change, which needs a tank on every ship"


This is it. This is my biggest PERSONNAL problem, but the topic talks for itself with all these different people posting about their dislike, and god knows how many more are out there that simply dont know about this topic.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#287 - 2013-01-14 14:39:44 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Frankly, i dont believe that. 8/10 needs at least 1000 tank and near 1600 dps, a single ship unless its full x type or officer fitted is not capable of that. If youre refferring to that bug, that if you move out 160km+ from the structure at the end at it will stop repairing than i have good news for you: You just exploited a bad game mechanic. as for a 6/10, it is possible to solo it with an overtanked ship with little to none dps, you still need a lot of faction modules on that ship and it will be a hell of a long run (couple of hours) but ITIS POSSIBLE. Tough i wouldnt call it clever. And for a 10/10, well that you simply cant solo, because of the overpowering last room with its 50,000 dmg torpedo + full pocket agro.




You must not do null sec exploration, The Guristas 10/10 (the MAZE), the Angel 10/10 (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard) The Sansha 10/10 (Centus assembly) and the Serpentis 10/10 (Serpentis Fleet Shipyard) are now and have always been solo'able. I only use two or more ships in those plexes for speed's sake. There was no bug, the torps always worked as they were supposed to.

Even before the Tengu, you could solo in drakes and night hawks. Live personally solo'd every 10/10 except the sansha, Blood raider and drone ones. I watched a corp mate solo the sansha Centus Assembly with a dual rep abaddon.

Blood Raider and Drone 10/10s are the ones you can't "solo" and solo is never the OPTIMAL way to do them. But saying you can solo a 10/10 (or omg 8/10, ALL 8/10s are soloable) just demonstrates inexperience.
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#288 - 2013-01-14 14:52:01 UTC
I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#289 - 2013-01-14 15:32:46 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true.


Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described?

You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible.
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#290 - 2013-01-14 16:07:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true.


Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described?

You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible.



I will verify it then, did you tank all the ships you brought to the 10/10 to the limit where it can tank the full pocket or you simply finished the 5 rooms with a single ships? Can you link the fit of that ships please?
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-01-14 16:30:27 UTC
I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.

For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.

At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.

If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.

"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that.
Signal11th
#292 - 2013-01-14 16:34:57 UTC
Texty wrote:
I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.

For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.

At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.

If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.

"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that.



You're pretty much spot but i will add extra:

AI change doesn't bring excitement it brings exasperation and yet more time wasted.

NEW CONTENT brings excitement.....take a hint CCP

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#293 - 2013-01-14 16:40:54 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true.


Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described?

You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible.



I will verify it then, did you tank all the ships you brought to the 10/10 to the limit where it can tank the full pocket or you simply finished the 5 rooms with a single ships? Can you link the fit of that ships please?


Each one is different.

Take the MAZE for example.

Used a Tengu with 6 HML in the highs, 3 Caldari navy Ballistic Controls and 1 Damage Control in the lows, deadspace medium shield booster (the toon I use for exploration and 10/10 plexes has a crystal implant set) and deadspace hardeners + afterburner in the mids + 2 tech CCC rigs and 1 Tech1 CCC rig. i'll link the exact fit later when I'm closer to home. I also use X-instinct boosters to lower my signature radius (which helps against all the battleships.

Before the last expansion, 2 of the hardeners we EM, now all you have to do to tank the MAZE is tank for Kin/Therm period.

1st 4 rooms of the maze, kill only scramming frigs and ignore the rest, then go through the proper gate (gates are not locked which is why you only need to kill scramming frigs).

Last room, warp in, orbit beacon you land on with afterburner on, kill web towers and any frig web/scramming you, kill guns, then cruisers (leave battleships), shoot station for 1st battleship spawn (ignore those BS as well), keep shooting station till next spawn, kill frigs and cruisers, rinse repeat till station is dead, afterburner to loot (still ignoring all the BS that can't do much damage to you. Scoop loot, warp out. Win.

Angel 10/10 is trickier because of target painting, but almost as east. Serp10/10 is laughable but structure is a ***** to kill even at range.

It's not hard, just time consuming. Some DED plexes are ridiculously easy now, like Serp, Angel, Blood Raider and Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3 can be "tanked" with a passive tank drake (whatever you bring for dps will take ship aggro, but you can hold torp + neut battery + gun aggro with the drake).

Now, Blood Raider Shipyard (the blood 10/10) is a whole 'nother beast, but I've been able to beat it with remote repping battleships. No solo ship in EVE can beat the BR 10/10 imo. I've tried it with tech3 passive shield tanked high em Lokis that breeze through lvl5 missions and it just doesn't work.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#294 - 2013-01-14 16:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Texty wrote:
I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.

For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.

At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.

If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.

"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that.


If you go back and look over the history of this change you will see that I was and still am one of the most outspoken opponents of the change. I think is was a backwards way of going at things. Wormholes and Incursions (built from the ground up to work with the new AIs) was the way to go, slapping new AI onto old mission and complex content was just dumb and lazy IMO.

I've always said that "just because you can adapt to a change doesn't make the change a good and proper thing". I also said this change will do nothing to increase enjoyment of pve content, and i believe honestly that I was right on all those counts.

That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious.

What's happened with me is that the AI change made things WAY easier in some ways and slightly harder in others. I used to not use drones in null sec anomalies because new spawns would sometimes target them and pulling them and and putting them back out was a pain. Now all i do is put out the drones and start up some EWAR on my machariel and most times my medium drones never take aggro. I lose an average of 2 drones per week doing Havens and Forsaken or forlorn hubs in null sec.

Like I said, i think the change was handled badly, but there is no choice but to adapt and ask for positive progress. Most of us in the PVe community have adapted to these changes, some of us have found new ways to exploit them lol.
Mund Richard
#295 - 2013-01-14 16:59:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
If you go back and look over the history of this change you will see that I was and still am one of the most outspoken opponents of the change. I think is was a backwards way of going at things. Wormholes and Incursions (built from the ground up to work with the new AIs) was the way to go, slapping new AI onto old mission and complex content was just dumb and lazy IMO.

I've always said that "just because you can adapt to a change doesn't make the change a good and proper thing". I also said this change will do nothing to increase enjoyment of pve content, and i believe honestly that I was right on all those counts.

That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious.

Like I said, i think the change was handled badly, but there is no choice but to adapt and ask for positive progress. Most of us in the PVe community have adapted to these changes, some of us have found new ways to exploit them lol.

Not empty quoting, I was there and also said this.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2013-01-14 19:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Quote:
That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious.

Actually, the best we could hope for is that they make two specific tweaks: (1) drones no longer auto-attack under any circumstances, meaning you have to target and use "F" to make them shoot anything; and (2) the "new NPC AI" remains the same in every way, except that NPCs do not shoot drones, ever.

These two changes would completely address CCP's desire to have PvE be "hands on" for drone boats, and would solve all the complaints from drone boat users about the new AI butchering their drones and ISK/hr. They're also simple changes, which would most likely have the side effect of removing forever a big chunk of broken and wonky "drone AI" code that has been a source of ongoing complaints for years. And they're sensible changes in that they put drones on exactly the same footing as all other weapon systems in terms of how much activity is needed to "manage" them.

If they took this chance to also fix "focus fire" once and for all, and to make drones simply shoot at what you tell them to shoot at, and keep shooting at that thing until it's dead, then so much the better.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2013-01-15 06:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Actually, the best we could hope for is that they make two specific tweaks: (1) drones no longer auto-attack under any circumstances, meaning you have to target and use "F" to make them shoot anything; and (2) the "new NPC AI" remains the same in every way, except that NPCs do not shoot drones, ever.
*snip*

Apparently people still believe that this change was an answer to "AFK whatever" rather than was made for the sake of it.
Please, don't come up with suggestions that are intended to fix PvE, but directly affect more than PvE even in theory.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2013-01-15 07:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Apparently people still believe that this change was an answer to "AFK whatever" rather than was made for the sake of it.

The original dev blog did say " ... to try and close some exploits ... ", which very well could have to do with afk mission running. Apparently now the official reason is that they want to make pve more like pvp, it's probably going to be something else next week.

Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Please, don't come up with suggestions that are intended to fix PvE, but directly affect more than PvE even in theory.

If drones don't automatically target npc's, the change has very small impact on pvp.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#299 - 2013-01-15 08:32:01 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Hazen Koraka wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.



How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?

Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.



You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.



Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.


This makes no sense, how fast do they target drones? Surely npcs are subject to the same sensor rules for lock-on time as players?

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-01-15 09:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Hazen Koraka wrote:
This makes no sense, how fast do they target drones? Surely npcs are subject to the same sensor rules for lock-on time as players?


Light drones have a signature radius of around 25m, and eg. sansha elite frigs have around 900 mm scan resolution, which give them a lock time close to 3 sec.

I don't know how drone mwd's work, but if it's the same rules as for players elite frigs would have 1 sec lock time when drones are using mwd's.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.