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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

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Llort
A Space Odyssey
#81 - 2012-11-29 20:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan

Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
Ross Sylibus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-11-29 20:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan

Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
Capt Lynch
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#83 - 2012-11-29 20:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan

Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
87102-6
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-11-29 20:07:56 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
87102-6 wrote:
For folks not quite familiar with the situation that's been going on and why I deem it harassment .

And then your whole argument with nothing that justifies changing anything. You are fairly accurate in your description of what Agents of the New Order do but your whole reason for why bumping should be banned ...


I said no such thing. I have stated repeatedly in this thread, and in the Assembly Hall thread: I DO NOT WANT GAME MECHANICS CHANGED. I strongly believe this is a social problem and needs to be dealt with by CCP at that level, i.e. very stern talks between senior GMs and the players explaining that what's transpiring is too extreme and that it should cease, or possibly an EULA update.

I do not agree with the idea of modules to anchor ships, "nerfing" bumping, giving miners "extra special benefits" within game mechanics / on a technical level, or anything similar to that. Others here have proposed those (including a corpmate) -- I do not share those sentiments. Maybe that makes me the odd man out, but so be it.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-11-29 20:09:33 UTC
Ross Sylibus wrote:

This debate is not at all about the actual function of the bumping mechanic - it is about what kind of game EVE is. If CCP has such a vision they should simply consult it and act accordingly related to this particular issue - if they don't, then broader discussion needs to first occur to determine the answer to that larger question before we continue down this path of tweaking minor details that only serve to embody the actualization of that vision.


This is exactly it perhaps CCP should put a devblog out about this.

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M0N0
The Right Hand of Darwin
#86 - 2012-11-29 20:14:33 UTC
Plenty of pilots asking for a effective counter to bumping...

Can I ask on behalf of everyone else for an effective counter to afk mining ect? A few suggestion:
Being afk for 3 minutes or more gives you an aggression timer.
Introducing a module that delays concord.
Making afk against the rules.
Allowing ore bays to be stolen from.

Any of the above are very much comparable to the popular requests from miners and would make the game more interesting instead of dull. Please, please stop asking for balancing or fairness - you already have it! Every ship in eve is able to bump but unlike mining it requires being at the keyboard AKA playing the game. In my opinion if anything barges need to be nerfed, 80,000 EHP is insane for a ship that can also go 1km/s with merely an AB(yes i am talking about the skiff).

All that being said I think the best thing for CCP to do is concentrate on making mining more intresting/engaging rather than afk/safe.
Orions Lord
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2012-11-29 20:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan

Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
Winchester Steele
#88 - 2012-11-29 20:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Ahvram wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
In addition to my previous post if you remove ways of affecting highsec players without adding others you make the game itself less interesting. Look at the forum threads and the two opposing websites, something as simple as bumping has spawned as examples of this. Without this simple mechanic, bumping, none of that would have happened and highsec would be that much more dull. Ask yourself this CCP, "do I really want to remove a key tool in creating content for my game just to appease a minority of loud whiners?"



I read "Dont take away our easy completely no risk way of exploiting High sec players as we lack the ability to do so in a legitimate way"

Thats the real issue here and no other. So many long winded aurguments when this is the only real reason.




Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

...

87102-6
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-11-29 20:17:42 UTC
Ross Sylibus wrote:
{post}

This is an interesting take on the situation -- and I say that politely and with total respect. Very well-written, and very thought-provoking. I'll ponder what you've said, but wanted to say thank you for what you've written.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#90 - 2012-11-29 20:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
87102-6 wrote:
Bing Bangboom wrote:
87102-6 wrote:
For folks not quite familiar with the situation that's been going on and why I deem it harassment .

And then your whole argument with nothing that justifies changing anything. You are fairly accurate in your description of what Agents of the New Order do but your whole reason for why bumping should be banned ...


I said no such thing. I have stated repeatedly in this thread, and in the Assembly Hall thread: I DO NOT WANT GAME MECHANICS CHANGED. I strongly believe this is a social problem and needs to be dealt with by CCP at that level, i.e. very stern talks between senior GMs and the players explaining that what's transpiring is too extreme and that it should cease, or possibly an EULA update.

I do not agree with the idea of modules to anchor ships, "nerfing" bumping, giving miners "extra special benefits" within game mechanics / on a technical level, or anything similar to that. Others here have proposed those (including a corpmate) -- I do not share those sentiments. Maybe that makes me the odd man out, but so be it.


I think that I understand what you said you want. I know you want a social change. I don't mean this to be beligerent (or undesirable). What you are describing in your second paragraph is "stop bumping or be banned". Correct me if I am wrong in understanding what you have said. I think you are saying you want CCP to step in and make the bumpers stop bumping. In some ways what you want is even worse than changing the mechanics. We could at least attempt to adapt to a mechanics change.


Edit: Rule 7 Trolling is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

www.minerbumping.com

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Beligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-11-29 20:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan

Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

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Kan Ajyn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-11-29 20:21:29 UTC
I'm retired and disabled. I spend all my free time on the web and in the game of EVE. I have some bad health days when I have to AFK for 5 to 10 minutes at a time due to my health. This is when I usually ice mine in Abudban because it used to be a safe haven where I could play the game at the speed I was capable of. That has been taken away from me by the bumping and harrassment. I can now only play EVE on my good days leaving me nothing to do with myself on my bad days. New Order is making excuses for their bullying tactics and getting CCP to sanction their method of play. Every game that I've played in the past has had some safe haven players could run to when they wanted to chill out and just relax. Abudban was one of the safe havens a player could relax and still play the game

Now in my opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with bumping, its part of the game of EVE, bullying and extortion is part of the game of life, put the 2 together for a more realistic game. Sure, but a safe haven should be part of that also. There's not really anything wrong with selling a license for mining either but then it should it be a territory that's fought over then? Everybody should have to fight for a piece of the action but right now, what I'm hearing is wardec's are of no use.
Let's say there's 100 diferent 'New Orders' all wanting 10 million isk from each miner for mining alowances in Abudban. Now for safe haven in abudban, a miner has to pay 100,000,000, and who's going to keep the rates from going any higher.

If bumping and mining licenses are going to be allowed Then why not put all mining areas in 0.3 and lower and make the people wanting to sell licenses, fight for the right to do so.
Crazey Monkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-11-29 20:21:41 UTC
I fully support all forms of emergent gameplay, it is what makes EVE what it is. After all if I understand this correctly all bumpers give miners a way out by paying ISK so I don't see what the big deal is. In EVE if you can't defend what you do or get people to defend it for you then you have no right to do it when someone tries to stop you. This is in null sec with Cloakers and sov warfare and in high sec with bumpers now.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-11-29 20:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Ahvram wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
In addition to my previous post if you remove ways of affecting highsec players without adding others you make the game itself less interesting. Look at the forum threads and the two opposing websites, something as simple as bumping has spawned as examples of this. Without this simple mechanic, bumping, none of that would have happened and highsec would be that much more dull. Ask yourself this CCP, "do I really want to remove a key tool in creating content for my game just to appease a minority of loud whiners?"



I read "Dont take away our easy completely no risk way of exploiting High sec players as we lack the ability to do so in a legitimate way"

Thats the real issue here and no other. So many long winded aurguments when this is the only real reason.



Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-11-29 20:23:51 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:
At first, I thought miner bumping was hilarious. Pitifully so, as most gankers seemed to join the band wagon in response to the barge buff, but nonetheless humorous. I even saw profit potential for selling gank ships and mining barges in affected systems. Then I actually watched them do it, and watched the interactions. In any other game, in any other situation, and especially in any place in the real world, what I saw was harassment and would have been treated as such legally.

Eve is indeed a dark and dystopian game, but as said before, it is a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed. There is no joy here, save for that of a few school yard bullies enjoying 0-risk griefing. Even with the upcoming bounty changes, these individuals would still be at no risk unless they happened to pod someone, and that someone happens to sell the rights to the bumper's death. IF that person even remembers he has a kill right on them, which I doubt many do.

In the end, this "emergent game play" has crossed a line. Eve is meant to be fun, frustrating, but fun. It is meant to encourage pvp and some griefing, not out right harassment with offending individuals hiding behind the guise of "emergent game play," and questionable sanctions. Nor is it meant to encourage targeted harassment. I am reminded of the Mittani and his antics at Fan Fest, which subsequently led to his ban. Granted the situation is not comparable to what the Mittani did, but it is nonetheless a form of targeted harassment.

It's sad to see any kind of condoning for this behavior. A gank is one thing, this is another. The only emergent thing about this situation, is an emergent testing method to determine how much harassment and grief casual gamers and players will take before they vote with their wallet and seek more welcoming fields. I know of a few who already have, much to my disappointment.

I wish for Eve to thrive, not die because a few angry gankers want their tears.



To paraphrase and reiterate.... and by all means correct me if I'm wrong, but you are essentially saying that miners only mine as the one ONLY fun thing to do in the game, and that people who bump miners, who obviously have done more than mine, are at fault because they are doing only ONE facet of "emergent gameplay" that in fact creates some content, and maybe even some internet notoriety, at the miner's cost? But suicide ganking is encouraged and/or allowed(see; Hulkageddon)?

I don't see how referencing something unrelated concerning the Mittani has anything to do with this subject sicne that's before my time, but to each their own.

I'd rather lose 1 mining cycle, or even move to a different system, then have to refit my exhumer. Makes no sense.

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Nathalie LaPorte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-11-29 20:27:24 UTC
Kan Ajyn wrote:
If bumping and mining licenses are going to be allowed Then why not put all mining areas in 0.3 and lower and make the people wanting to sell licenses, fight for the right to do so.



Just the ice fields would be enough, really. That's the main focus of minerbumping anyway.

Support.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-11-29 20:29:28 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
M0N0 wrote:
Plenty of pilots asking for a effective counter to bumping...

Can I ask on behalf of everyone else for an effective counter to afk mining ect? A few suggestion:
Being afk for 3 minutes or more gives you an aggression timer.
Introducing a module that delays concord.
Making afk against the rules.
Allowing ore bays to be stolen from.

Any of the above are very much comparable to the popular requests from miners and would make the game more interesting instead of dull. Please, please stop asking for balancing or fairness - you already have it! Every ship in eve is able to bump but unlike mining it requires being at the keyboard AKA playing the game. In my opinion if anything barges need to be nerfed, 80,000 EHP is insane for a ship that can also go 1km/s with merely an AB(yes i am talking about the skiff).

All that being said I think the best thing for CCP to do is concentrate on making mining more intresting/engaging rather than afk/safe.


I'm pretty sure AFK mining is already against the rules its just a sticky situation because mining game play is terrible:


The issue would be solved if mining lasers could not auto-repeat.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-11-29 20:33:28 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
M0N0 wrote:
Plenty of pilots asking for a effective counter to bumping...

Can I ask on behalf of everyone else for an effective counter to afk mining ect? A few suggestion:
Being afk for 3 minutes or more gives you an aggression timer.
Introducing a module that delays concord.
Making afk against the rules.
Allowing ore bays to be stolen from.

Any of the above are very much comparable to the popular requests from miners and would make the game more interesting instead of dull. Please, please stop asking for balancing or fairness - you already have it! Every ship in eve is able to bump but unlike mining it requires being at the keyboard AKA playing the game. In my opinion if anything barges need to be nerfed, 80,000 EHP is insane for a ship that can also go 1km/s with merely an AB(yes i am talking about the skiff).

All that being said I think the best thing for CCP to do is concentrate on making mining more intresting/engaging rather than afk/safe.


I'm pretty sure AFK mining is already against the rules its just a sticky situation because mining game play is terrible:


The issue would be solved if mining lasers could not auto-repeat.


Yep it would probably be much easier to catch mining bots as well.

Can Not Auto Repeat = 1

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-11-29 20:35:42 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The issue would be solved if mining lasers could not auto-repeat.


Yep it would probably be much easier to catch mining bots as well.

Can Not Auto Repeat = 1


Make it happen CCP Soundwave. The mining community is counting on YOU to make their playstyle more interesting.

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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-11-29 20:39:57 UTC
I find these whines for bumping nerf unbelievable.

I have been away from the game for over 4 years. I cannot imagine miners whining for bumping nerf back at 2008 to make it easier to AFK mine and/or bot. Back then most sane miners hated the bots. Now it is all upside down, a part of the miner community embraces the bot-like AFK playing style.

The bumping represents one of the core values of Eve. Other people can and will make your activities harder, especially if you are not prepared, or like in this case, do not even want to prepare or adapt. Lets ignore the fact that bumping does not cause the target any lasting damage or harm for the sake of argument.

Bumping is very easy to avoid. The people doing it are usually in one (1) system: if their demand for 10m isk is too much, is it that hard to move to the next system? What the biggest issue is in my opinion is the sense on entitlement to mine anywhere and anytime they choose. It hurts their pride to have to react to other people in any way, i.e. they reject the idea of multiplayer Eve. This is even more disturbing when you realize the miners are already part of the mining/market PVP even if they do not admit it themselves, it is just that the PVP must be allowed only for them, not the others.

The pro-nerf crowd consist mainly of a handful of vocal individuals who feel that the recent mining ship buff was not enough as it does not include total invulnerability towards the rest of Eve. They refuse to move from the affected systems because their pride has been hurt, some even participating in very dubious methods like claiming death threats or other rl violence to get some attention. The whole thing has been blown up from all proportions by few pearl-clutching individuals.

Save bumping. Save the Eve we all love. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!