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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

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CCP Falcon
#1 - 2012-11-28 13:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
We are very aware of the current state of play in highsec with regards to bumping, and the various views that people have on it.

Given the frequency that new threads have been appearing on the forums in recent weeks, I have spoken with the GM Team and have decided to open this thread for discussion of the topic.

The intention of this thread is to gather questions, opinions and feedback from the player base with regards to bumping, and present them to the Senior GMs for review and responses.

As of now, policy on bumping is as follows:

  • Bumping in itself is not considered an exploit.
  • Bumping in itself is a valid game mechanic.
  • If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.

In this thread I will be gathering questions, comments, feedback and opinions regarding bumping.

I will stress that any other threads on any other section of the forums that are created regarding bumping will be locked, treated as spam, and dealt with as such. This thread alone is where discussion will take place, to keep it focused and concise.

I will also stress that posts of a derogatory nature, including flaming, trolling, spamming, harassment and antagonizing players will be dealt with directly, and harshly.

This thread will be used for a civil discussion regarding the bumping situation.

This thread will run for one week, until 17:00 on Wednesday, December 5th, after which I will close it. I will then gather responses, opinions, questions and feedback from it, before forwarding it on to the Senior GMs for review, who will then provide a response.

Bear in mind that this is an issue we would like to consider from all angles, and is also being dealt with over the holiday season. As such, a response may take some time to be issued, and may end up arriving just after the New Year.

I will say again, that this thread will remain civil, on topic and focused. After seeing the state that many other threads on the subject degenerated into, there will be zero tolerance for shenanigans of any kind.

Please feel free to discuss in this thread, and pose questions.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Snuffed Out
#2 - 2012-11-28 13:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
To be clear, the controversy over bumping is about the New Order of Highsec bumping mining ships out of range of asteroids to deactivate their mining lasers

www.minerbumping.com
http://proveldtariat.wordpress.com/

I don't feel bumping should be disallowed when the bumping is being done for a reason. (e: To me, extortion and 'within-the-EULA-harrassment' are good reasons to bump someone, as well as the more normal bumping during fights or as a way to stop someone warping off.) There are some options the pilots being bumped can take. Anslo's blog says quite clearly there are ways to stop yourself being bumped, just as there are ways to not be ganked. There is little reason to disallow something that you can defend yourself against, is there? e:then again james 315 claims none of these work but whatever

In the case of bumping for extortion, the entire point of extortion is that the extorter (is that a word?) won't give up bumping unless money has been paid. This does mean that one player is repeatedly targeting another ('harassing'), but if they had to 'just go away' after fifteen minutes or something there's no reason for the victim to pay up
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2012-11-28 14:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Benny Ohu wrote:


I don't feel bumping should be disallowed when the bumping is being done for a reason. There are some options the pilots being bumped can take. Anslo's blog says quite clearly there are ways to stop yourself being bumped, just as there are ways to not be ganked. There is little reason to disallow something that you can defend yourself against, is there?

In the case of bumping for extortion, the entire point of extortion is that the extorter (is that a word?) won't give up bumping unless money has been paid. This does mean that one player is repeatedly targeting another ('harassing'), but if they had to 'just go away' after fifteen minutes or something there's no reason for the victim to pay up


This, pretty much,

I can't say how much I would like eve without the ability to bump someone off a gate while they are losing a fight to prevent de-aggression and jumping.

That said, bumping people solely for the sake of bumping, even if isk transfers are involved to prevent or promote this bumping, should not happen, if it causes inability to leave the area from the person getting bumped, and no aggression flags are planned to be incurred by either party.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2012-11-28 14:47:27 UTC
You quoted me and said 'this, pretty much', but you don't agree with me at all!

I don't think the practice of bumping during actual fights is under review, though? The topic appears be be about bumping for extortion in highsec

Can it be made clearer which instances of bumping are in discussion here? 'Meta' bumping like miner bumping, freighter bumping in prep for a gank, bumping to control enemy movement in battles, bumping for extortion? All bumping everywhere? The actual bumping mechanic?

Or is this discussion about the whole 'miner bumping' player group and all their activities?
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#5 - 2012-11-28 16:17:30 UTC
In terms of bumping miners the only aspect that I could remotely want to change is to grant the victim some means of recourse against a bumper in an NPC corp. War dec's can be used against bumpers in player corps either directly by the victim or via mercs.

But if the bumper is in an NPC corp there isn't much that can done. One could say that the victim could attempt to gank the bumper but I do not see that as very effective or practical. If CCP can find a reasonable method to remove the immunity of NPC corp bumpers in some form or fashion then that would be swell. If they can't then so be it

Other wise bumping is fine in my eyes.
gfldex
#6 - 2012-11-28 17:31:11 UTC
I don't really see any problem with miner bumping. Over time mineral prices will keep going up and it will all even out.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Kimo Khan
The IN-Famous
#7 - 2012-11-28 20:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
This is coming from someone who has mined and used a freighter

Bumping to prevent a person from warping: As I see it it is the same as scramming a person, but with no penalty. The new module for mini-jump drive may solve this for pretty much anyone except a freighter or jump freighter. The main issue I see with this is using a small ship to bump a big one (freighter) long enough for the gankers to arrive. I should get some type of kill right/suspect flag on the bumper even though they never fired a shot. Without that bump, I would not have been ganked.

Bumping a person to prevent mining: No issue unless it is repeated over and over again.

Perhaps a new module: Active anchor. Prevents ship from being bumped, like a siege mode. DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY CYCLE. This means person has to actively be at keyboard and see a bump coming. Drawback, ship cannot move, or warp until cycle complete. Cycle takes 3 minutes. So I can prevent the bump, but doing so I am a sitting duck for gankers who don't care about concord.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#8 - 2012-11-28 23:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Awesome thread!

CCP Falcon wrote:
As of now, policy on bumping is as follows:

  • Bumping in itself is not considered an exploit.



Repeatedly bumping freighters for the sole purpose of bumping them has been labeled an explolt in the past (If needed I can come up with examples)

Quote:



I will stress that any other threads on any other section of the forums that are created regarding bumping will be locked, treated as spam, and dealt with as such. This thread alone is where discussion will take place, to keep it focused and concise.

I will also stress that posts of a derogatory nature, including flaming, trolling, spamming, harassment and antagonizing players will be dealt with directly, and harshly.


I appreciate your clarity on the issue :)

Quote:

Please feel free to [...] pose questions.



Edit: Rule 24 - Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan


I really apreciate your work. You're truly adorable and my favorite dev :).

[edit] if you feel the need to punch me for no reason, please not in the face. Thank you.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Thomas Gallant
Quafe Company Courier Shipping
#9 - 2012-11-29 03:35:36 UTC
I guess my question is, if it is considered a disallowed form of griefing, how could it be combated, so that it doesn't impact accidental bumps, and what would or would not be an acceptable reason to bump? Roleplaying? extortion? Just general griefing without reason?

I guess what makes bumping different from other forms of greifing is that it's zero cost, you can bump til the sun burns out and it won't cost a cent, won't impact your sec rating, and won't cause any flags to appear. All other forms of greifing have a cost (even if it's trivial) or require the target to take some sort of action that they could chose not to do (such as falling for a scam)
87102-6
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-11-29 05:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: 87102-6
The thread here is about miner bumping. It's not clearly stated by CCP Falcon in his actual post content, but it says so explicitly in the actual Subject line of the post.

Foremost: what I'm going to be talking about below is specifically with regards to the situation Benny Ohu mentioned here. Combat bumping, freighter bumping, etc. is a different situation (IMO).

I am a firm believer that the situation at hand is a social problem and should not be solved by technology. By this I mean: I do not want to see EVE's game mechanics changed in any way to address this problem. I feel very strongly that this situation needs to be dealt with by CCP by talking to the players involved and making it crystal clear that the behaviour in question is too aggressive and falls under harassment classification. I believe changing the game mechanics would upset other players (for example if bumping was nerfed in some way, or that "ship anchoring" module folks have proposed), not to mention would just cause the harassing players to find some new quirk/loophole to abuse. This is why I feel it's a social problem that needs to be dealt with by CCP via social means. I have a lot of justification bullet points for this view and am happy to list them off if needed.

It is true that there are ways to minimise -- but not completely solve -- being bumped while mining. But this does not solve the actual problem that's occurring. I do not have a problem with extortion or scamming -- these are absolutely a part of EVE gameplay and should be retained. But there is something very malicious in nature about multiple players (and likely with multiple alts -- so we're talking 5-10 characters at once, possibly more) swarming to a single system to constantly bombard a single player with demands in Local chat, inciting arguments/vulgarity, and proceeding to bump (and later suicide gank) the individual before moving on to the next person (where this can go on for 12-16 hours). Meaning: the driving force behind this movement is not financial (which is what extortion is), it is "for teh lulz" or general griefing, but on a larger scale and on a much more individualised level. Again: I am happy to provide bullet points for these, as well as reference actual situations which have already transpired.

Furthermore -- and I want to make this crystal clear to everyone reading -- wardec and bounties do not solve this problem. I have bullet points proving that as well, and like above, will be happy to list them off if asked. The fact that the harassing players operate under the knowledge that neither of these work (as a way for the miner to retaliate), IMO, is further evidence that what is being done is harassment and not "general pirate tactics" (for lack of better term).
Thomas Gallant
Quafe Company Courier Shipping
#11 - 2012-11-29 06:54:55 UTC
If you're trying to tackle griefing for the sake a griefing, without any goal of profit or revenge... You're taking on a very large and central part of high sec griefing, as from what I've seen, most griefers will willing take a small to even moderate loss to carry out their goals. I think what makes bumping a slightly different issue is that there is no cost with it. no ship loss, no sec hit, or anything in game done to discourage this.
Akrasjel Lanate
Cro-Magnons
Cavemen.
#12 - 2012-11-29 08:27:12 UTC
This is something new Shocked

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

87102-6
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-11-29 14:39:24 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
This thread will run for one week, until 17:00 on Wednesday, December 5th, after which I will close it. I will then gather responses, opinions, questions and feedback from it, before forwarding it on to the Senior GMs for review, who will then provide a response.

I don't think this is a sufficient amount of time for feedback, specifically given the following attributes:

  • This thread is in the Crime & Punishment section, which overall does not get anywhere near the amount of attention level as EVE Informational Portal, EVE Communication Centre, EVE General Discussion, and EVE Technology and Research Centre,
  • I feel it would be worthwhile to point out in the Assembly Hall thread, despite locked, that this (new) thread exists. For example, not a single person in that thread has so far commented in this one (excluding myself).

TL;DR -- I feel a week is not a sufficient amount of time given lack of knowledge of this thread's existence. Try more like a month.

I'm happy to post in the aforementioned forums, pointing people to this thread (requesting people provide feedback), if that is permitted and/or you think that would be beneficial.
CCP Falcon
#14 - 2012-11-29 15:51:59 UTC
87102-6 wrote:
I feel it would be worthwhile to point out in the Assembly Hall thread, despite locked, that this (new) thread exists. For example, not a single person in that thread has so far commented in this one (excluding myself).


This has been done.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

87102-6
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-11-29 15:58:07 UTC
Thank you, CCP Falcon!
Anslo
Scope Works
#16 - 2012-11-29 16:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Benny Ohu wrote:

http://proveldtariat.wordpress.com/
Anslo's blog says quite clearly there are ways to stop yourself being bumped, just as there are ways to not be ganked. There is little reason to disallow something that you can defend yourself against, is there? e:then again james 315 claims none of these work but whatever


Hey Benny, thanks for the website shout out! Smile

Anyway, I'm glad to see this thread in place. Long overdue in lieu of bumper derailing attempts. You're right though, I try to help miners get off their butts and get behind a gun and teach these people a lesson, but current mechanics just really are in favor of the bumpers here. The bumpers run 0 risk, while the bumpee takes all the risk (gank, dec, etc).

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Eve isn't TOTALLY risk free. It never will be. When miner ganking was around, miners had the option to tank to prevent themselves from being popped, or even placing logi ships in belts too. They had options. There is no option with bumping, at all. To top that off, the "blog" they have is really just a harassment center where predatory PvP'ers, in my opinion, go in, have a laugh, harass "non compliant miners," and even dec them into submission. To me, it's targeted, and that makes the whole situation even worse.

The fact is this. Eve is a game. It is meant to be enjoyed. Eve is a sandbox. People can play how they want. But when does one person exercising that freedom exercise it to a point that's just irresponsible and malicious and just really ruining someone's fun all day, every day? With great power comes great responsibility etc. Raining on someone's parade has always been an aspect of Eve, but there was always a way to fight back.

Got ganked? Tank and prevent it.
Mission ninjas? Warp out and let them get aggro or shoot wrecks.
Low sec pirates hunting you? D-scan and warp around to safe points.
Ransomed? Take revenge by slipping an alt in their corp and awoxing or jacking their wallet.

There's always been so many ways to counter what happens to you. What's the counter to bumping? Yes I outlined a few ways, but none are sure fire and are, at best, duct tape fixes. More active miners can deal with it and handle themselves, but not so active miners suffer. And this is where I have another issue.

I don't like bots. No one does. But this bot-aspirant crap is a problem. People have lives, kids, family, wives, husbands, friends, work, chores, etc. We're humans, we have things to do. The argument the bumpers use is "don't play if you can't be at the keyboard." I'm sorry but, people have things to do, they have lives, and need to go afk at times. Why should they not be "allowed to chill," as so pointed out in the Proveldtariat Manifesto? Why can they not do as they want? Why do the bumpers have the right to inflict grief on miners who may afk?

Even worse, they assume they're afk because they don't respond...when they could be on voice comms, reading something online, in another chat, multiboxing, I could go on and on.

Bottom line, this is simply wrong, and is rather detrimental to the casual gamer. Despite vocal minority decrees and shouts, Eve does not NEED to be "hard core." It's a game, let people play it. If they have to rain on their parade, let them. But don't let them so easily get away with it. I'm still in favor of an anchor module that could let people not be bumped, but impact overall tank or yeild unless they use mods to help one or the other, not both. Risk vs reward etc.

PvP and piracy is one thing, it isn't done maliciously or targeted unless it's some kind of war dec. Bumping, from what's been seen, is malicious and detrimental to Eve.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#17 - 2012-11-29 16:05:20 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
  • If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.

  • Is there a chance we could get a little more clarification on this bit in particular? At first glance, it looks as if you're encouraging people who have tried to evade us by orbiting and mining elsewhere to petition if they find us too good at bumping to be so easily defeated. Would you include paying the 10 million ISK for a mining permit under the heading of 'all necessary means'?

    Also, I was wondering; you may be aware that the New Order currently penalises people who file petitions against us by raising the cost for their mining fee to 30 million ISK. When you 'encourage' them to open a petition, are you implying that we shouldn't be discouraging petitions?

    Thanks for opening this thread (and posting about it in the Assembly Hall thread). I realise that the topic tends to cause some people an unfortunate level of frustration which doesn't sit well with the forum rules.
    Ahvram
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2012-11-29 16:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
    Miner bumping is a pain to the miner but they have options. They can generally still warp away and go to another belt ect.

    Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan
    Tubrug1
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2012-11-29 16:29:56 UTC
    Minerbumping is emergent gameplay, miners already have all the counters they need but are too scared to spend their hard earned isk on ganking, wardeccing or hiring mercs.
    Malcolm Rennolds
    Inquisition FiS Division
    #20 - 2012-11-29 16:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
    I see several situations where bumping is featured in EvE.

    1: PvP to break someone's align, move them out of dock/jump range or prevent them from Pos'ing up. No one, to my understanding, is questioning this use. This is a relatively high-skill, potentially high-impact activity that makes pvp more than just a matter of hitting orbit or manually spiraling around someone.

    2: Bumping freighters/orcas to make it easier to suicide gank them. First off, it's not like they can't just be warp scrammed anyway. Second how do you fix it so that colliding with a ship in high sec is punishable without adding tons to GM workloads and/or turning jita undock into a charlie foxtrot. Additionally, the changes to stealing loot will make this substantially harder come Dec 4th.

    3: Bumping miners. If you're at your computer being bumped is a manner of manually piloting to weaken them bump and you can likely keep yourself in range of your mining lasers without to much trouble. If you're afk, you're engaging in a playstyle that CCP shouldn't make easier, or support, so who cares what happens to you? Bumping active miners, aka new order bumpers, is part of the kind of crazy emergent game play that makes eve awesome. Don't get me wrong, I hate then new order. It's funny, but I have an ice mining alt and don't see why I should pay 10m isk to someone just so that they don't fly their ship into mine. Here's the thing. It's eve. You make your own fun, oftentimes at the expense of others. With the bounty changes on Dec 4th there will be a great way to punish the new order.

    3: Bumping miners. If you're at your computer being bumped is a manner of manually piloting to weaken them bump and you can likely keep yourself in range of your mining lasers without to much trouble. If you're afk, you're engaging in a playstyle that CCP shouldn't make easier, or support, so who cares what happens to you? Bumping active miners, aka new order bumpers, is part of the kind of crazy emergent game play that makes eve awesome. Don't get me wrong, I hate then new order. It's funny, but I have an ice mining alt and don't see why I should pay 10m isk to someone just so that they don't fly their ship into mine. Here's the thing. It's eve. You make your own fun, oftentimes at the expense of others. With the bounty changes on Dec 4th there will be a great way to punish the new order.
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