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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#421 - 2012-10-24 17:00:15 UTC

Quote:
caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.

As for not being willing to shoot structures for a better long term payout, well, CCP can't fix stupid.

You are very hung up on shooting 80 structures in 24 hours. This system is designed to encourage long term steady trends, not idiotic spikes. It's not really that hard to focus your efforts on the systems you want to take. FW is not intended to be a solo occupation where you operate in a vacuum all the time. Let the lone wolf farmers protect your systems, let the organized (worthwhile) groups flip those systems... the farmers will come defend them and your whole faction benefits financially.

What possible reason could CCP have for playing favorites? All that would do is put more pressure on them and paint them in a bad light. You need to start thinking rationally before you post. Your motivation for leaving those systems vulnerable and milking them as been removed, you will have to deal with the results of your decision to play that way to begin with. You seem to be simply irritated you didn't have the chance exploit the change ahead of time to pad your own wallet , and you aren't going to find much sympathy.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#422 - 2012-10-24 17:26:24 UTC
Other than the opportunity to fight outnumbered, what would the incentive be for a player new to faction warfare to pick the losing side? Have you considered making items that can only be attained with the lp gathered from FW? This would make it so that the faction is able to set the price of those items onto the market, potentially making their worse lp/hour ratio worth something comparable to that of the winning factions, while also avoiding having to compete with highsec mission runners who face no risks what so ever.

I also think it is kind of silly that the side with a higher tier gets more lp for killing targets than the losing side. If anything it should be the reverse for the losers to have more incentive to go out and kill/undock.
roigon
TURN LEFT
#423 - 2012-10-24 17:28:10 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.


I won't tell you it's easy because it quiet simply isn't, but we in the amarr managed to keep a fleet going for 15 hours straight shooting i-hubs. With zero upfront planning or coordination. We managed to get about 17 or so i-hubs down.

Simply repeatedly contacting all the people we knew within the faction and getting them to join in. Then getting THEM to contact everyone THEY knew to join in. We started out with 20 people, dropped to 13 people, grew to 40 people and ended with about 20 people in fleet.

Sure if you hold that to the 80 systems that you guys have vulnerable that's only like 20% or something, But at least it's something.

I don't know much about the gal/cal FW situation. So far all I know you guys tried as hard as you could and simply got countered every step of the way. We did have an advantage with the minmatar being more concerned with their tier 5 then actually stopping us.

The idea that CCP does things in favour of one side of the other is just silly. Even though I don't agree with everything they've released. In the amarr vs minmatar it worked out that the bleak lands (traditional amarr) is now largely in amarr hands, and the rest in minmatar hands. I'm sure some CCP dev is feeling pretty smug over that result.

And yes, there are still legions of problems, the topology of the FW map, some of the new mechanics etc.. But at least it's a step in the right direction.

Personally I think the best solution is to remove LP from FW, and make it just like NPC nullsec. But I'm not sure I'd get a lot of traction for that idea. :P
Lili Lu
#424 - 2012-10-24 17:33:55 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.


Your paranoia makes you a sad puppy. Sad But I'm sure you find an odd comfort in your persecution complex. Whatever makes you sad-happy I suppose.Straight
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#425 - 2012-10-24 17:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Lili Lu wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.


Your paranoia makes you a sad puppy. Sad But I'm sure you find an odd comfort in your persecution complex. Whatever makes you sad-happy I suppose.Straight

I prefer to slack at my job, after all it pays just the same as actually doing my job and it's far easier.

But then, without warning, the management instituted this thing called a merit raise. Now all the people that actually work got a raise and I didn't.

Obviously this whole situation is unfair, and I'm really upset about it.

Big smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Erick Odin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2012-10-24 18:11:20 UTC
I killed somebody in lowsec last night and all I got was a GCC and security hit. You're all a bunch of babies.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#427 - 2012-10-24 18:13:45 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quote:
caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.

As for not being willing to shoot structures for a better long term payout, well, CCP can't fix stupid.

You are very hung up on shooting 80 structures in 24 hours. This system is designed to encourage long term steady trends, not idiotic spikes. It's not really that hard to focus your efforts on the systems you want to take. FW is not intended to be a solo occupation where you operate in a vacuum all the time. Let the lone wolf farmers protect your systems, let the organized (worthwhile) groups flip those systems... the farmers will come defend them and your whole faction benefits financially.

What possible reason could CCP have for playing favorites? All that would do is put more pressure on them and paint them in a bad light. You need to start thinking rationally before you post. Your motivation for leaving those systems vulnerable and milking them as been removed, you will have to deal with the results of your decision to play that way to begin with. You seem to be simply irritated you didn't have the chance exploit the change ahead of time to pad your own wallet , and you aren't going to find much sympathy.


it is not really about isk, everyone knew that caldari and amarr had plans to shoot bunkers just before patch to ensure that they have most systems, now CCP made surprise patch to protect minmatar and gallente. So CCP ****** up long term plans for amarr and caldari. It is not players fault that CCP changes rules to favor some militias over others, no wonder people are not interested about serious FW system warfare anymore, CCP will fuckup it anyway like they have done several times in the past always favoring same sides.

Good start for new glorious FW ! Well done CCP !
Klister Ethelred
Parallax Shift
#428 - 2012-10-24 18:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Klister Ethelred
Quote:
Faction Warfare to be a healthy, engaging system.


Apparently, making enough Isk to pay for your PLEX is very engaging in this game. Why else would people spend hours orbiting a button when they could spend less time in real life to make the money equivalent of a PLEX. Everyone in EVE seems to want to pay for their sub with in game money. It's all about the Iskies. If you make it harder to do this, then the player's gameplay time will naturally flow towards the easy money.

It's also all about the Iskies because while playing the game you lose millions. Everyone always needs a large supply of Isk in this game.


Quote:
Want that 30,000 LP? Than (sic) be willing to do whatever it takes to stay alive for 15 minutes in one place at one time.


If you want that 30k you have to do it in one ship. No one can do that. There is NOTHING you can do to stay alive for 15 min in one place at one time...in one ship. Perhaps you could stay alive for 15 minutes in one place if you had a larger force, but then your sentence would be "If you want that 5k, then you and your 5 friends have to do what it takes..." But 5k LP is not a big motivator. So no reason to be in the plex with 5 friends. There are far more profitable things to do with 5 friends. So, you are not forcing the money maker into PvP with this logic.

If you want people to participate in your favorite aspect of EVE, then how do you get more people to do that? You provide incentives, not reduce incentives. You don't want your system to be reserved for the PvP elite, because then it will be very small.

PvP is very engaging, but what makes it healthy is having lots of engagements. Reducing incentives will reduce engagements, I fear.

If you want to see lots of PvP, then make the Isk payout for PvP a lot higher...provide incentives.

"I'd rather be pissed off then pissed on"

"This is one of those times when it's important to know the difference between 'then' and 'than'."
Erick Odin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#429 - 2012-10-24 18:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Erick Odin
Klister Ethelred wrote:


If you want to see lots of PvP, then make the Isk payout for PvP a lot higher...provide incentives.


Spoken like a true farmer. This is the problem with trying to make farmers into PvP'ers. They don't understand that the explosion is the incentive.
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#430 - 2012-10-24 18:29:18 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
If you want people to participate in your favorite aspect of EVE, then how do you get more people to do that? You provide incentives, not reduce incentives.


The fact that you have to spell this out shows the abysmal state of education in the world.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#431 - 2012-10-24 18:42:15 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
Quote:
Faction Warfare to be a healthy, engaging system.


Apparently, making enough Isk to pay for your PLEX is very engaging in this game. Why else would people spend hours orbiting a button when they could spend less time in real life to make the money equivalent of a PLEX. Everyone in EVE seems to want to pay for their sub with in game money. It's all about the Iskies. If you make it harder to do this, then the player's gameplay time will naturally flow towards the easy money.

It's also all about the Iskies because while playing the game you lose millions. Everyone always needs a large supply of Isk in this game.


Quote:
Want that 30,000 LP? Than (sic) be willing to do whatever it takes to stay alive for 15 minutes in one place at one time.


If you want that 30k you have to do it in one ship. No one can do that. There is NOTHING you can do to stay alive for 15 min in one place at one time...in one ship. Perhaps you could stay alive for 15 minutes in one place if you had a larger force, but then your sentence would be "If you want that 5k, then you and your 5 friends have to do what it takes..." But 5k LP is not a big motivator. So no reason to be in the plex with 5 friends. There are far more profitable things to do with 5 friends. So, you are not forcing the money maker into PvP with this logic.

If you want people to participate in your favorite aspect of EVE, then how do you get more people to do that? You provide incentives, not reduce incentives. You don't want your system to be reserved for the PvP elite, because then it will be very small.

PvP is very engaging, but what makes it healthy is having lots of engagements. Reducing incentives will reduce engagements, I fear.

If you want to see lots of PvP, then make the Isk payout for PvP a lot higher...provide incentives.


The ability to survive in a single ship (assuming we are not talking about opposing player intervention) will be made a given when the new NPC's enter the picture. Until then you will want to bring friends, and perhaps get a handle on the difference between long term gains and short term gains to your wallet.

I am in favor of providing even more incentives to encourage combat, but keep in mind that if you raise the payout too much you open the door for the system to become easily exploited.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Klister Ethelred
Parallax Shift
#432 - 2012-10-24 18:42:35 UTC
Erick Odin wrote:
Klister Ethelred wrote:


If you want to see lots of PvP, then make the Isk payout for PvP a lot higher...provide incentives.


Spoken like a true farmer. This is the problem with trying to make farmers into PvP'ers. They don't understand that the explosion is the incentive.


No, no. I like explosions. MMOs aren't really my native game mode. I used to play FPS games exclusively and there isn't any motivation there, or needed, to get in combat in a FPS.

I also like making isk to pay for my PLEX and to replace all the ships I lose.

But you missed the point.

You want targets to shoot at? Pay them to be there. (Give them some incentive to be there)

Otherwise PvP is just populated with PvPers....and it's a smaller world, with fewer targets.

"I'd rather be pissed off then pissed on"

"This is one of those times when it's important to know the difference between 'then' and 'than'."
Klister Ethelred
Parallax Shift
#433 - 2012-10-24 18:49:02 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:



The ability to survive in a single ship (assuming we are not talking about opposing player intervention) will be made a given when the new NPC's enter the picture. Until then you will want to bring friends, and perhaps get a handle on the difference between long term gains and short term gains to your wallet.

I am in favor of providing even more incentives to encourage combat, but keep in mind that if you raise the payout too much you open the door for the system to become easily exploited.



I said that wrong....

There is nothing you can do to assure that you can stay in that plex for 15 minutes. Other players can get you out of there, if you are solo.

"I'd rather be pissed off then pissed on"

"This is one of those times when it's important to know the difference between 'then' and 'than'."
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#434 - 2012-10-24 19:00:26 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:


Timer tell to your plexing alt that there is enough time to enter plex and ***** half of lp, and when timer is moved to landing point you can do it without any risk especially when no one can tackle you on plex gate before entering it.

Excellent way to make one reason more to not plex at all with anything else than 1day griefing alts.


I agree that a shown timer would make ninja plexing that much easier to do (it's already easy now), although perhaps this is intentional, as another means to combat plexing from one's enemies. I mean, why force you out of the plex right now, rather than wait until you've spent (wasted) more time in the plex , and it's about done (especially in larger plexes), when you send a few ships to ninja the LP?
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#435 - 2012-10-24 19:11:29 UTC
Durrr wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:


Timer tell to your plexing alt that there is enough time to enter plex and ***** half of lp, and when timer is moved to landing point you can do it without any risk especially when no one can tackle you on plex gate before entering it.

Excellent way to make one reason more to not plex at all with anything else than 1day griefing alts.


I agree that a shown timer would make ninja plexing that much easier to do (it's already easy now), although perhaps this is intentional, as another means to combat plexing from one's enemies. I mean, why force you out of the plex right now, rather than wait until you've spent (wasted) more time in the plex , and it's about done (especially in larger plexes), when you send a few ships to ninja the LP?


Actually best way might be to be out of militia with main and use alts to get lp, so you can shoot who ever is in plex and take lp with alt, and if you have 2 opposing militia alts you can use alt that has less time to get lp.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#436 - 2012-10-24 20:14:25 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ahhh, so you aren't really concerned with PVP at all. Your only concern is that you might have to share the LP you farm Big smile

I think that is just something the farmers are going to have to work out on their own, just like they do now. Blink


Yeah sorry, but prevention of LP theft is secondary to providing maximum pew potential. I'd much rather CCP address that issue by investigating a split-rewards Incursion-style system like Pinky Feldman suggested in his Mittani.com article*, so that not only is LP theft reduced but small gang work isn't penalized, either.


People have been saying this since before Inferno was released. Has CCP given any feedback on the idea?

Quote:
Have you considered making items that can only be attained with the lp gathered from FW?

This. I think that ideally each militia would have a mostly unique LP shop that didn't compete with highsec mission runners or the other militias' LP stores.
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#437 - 2012-10-24 20:25:05 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:


How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?



The only people getting hit hard by CCP are LP farmers and frankly I don't think they add anything to the game other then messing up the market.

So basically it wouldn't bother me if they left. Of course they wont as the vast majority are just alts of regular players who will go back top making "normal" incomes.


No CCP ****** hard those who really care about system control on long term, farmers are happy already by sitting on their billions.

Now those who care about system control has to shoot bunkers without rewards because farmer who made billions are gone.


Are you actually trying to argue that having farmers choking up FW and screwing up the economy was a good thing because they would do the structure shooting for you? Ugh

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Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#438 - 2012-10-24 20:32:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
roigon wrote:
Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?

Yes, replacing the old system where they would get the same LP but the higher tier player would get more value for that LP.


I think that PVP kills should be rewarded more generously even if you are at lower control tiers. Arguably the players engaging in the PVP are taking bigger risks for their side in keep an area safe than a player who is plexing.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

100 VP is what, a medium plex? So one is looking at a minimum of 15 minutes if plexes are to be used to deny a bunker bust . 15 minutes just happens to be the average time it takes to drop a bunker with todays tier3 BC swarms and/or 1-2 dread drops

100 VP is 5 plexes.


I think that is too large a buffer. It should be no more than 1 or 2 plexes at most as a decently sized fleet shooting up an I-HUB doesn't really take all that long to finish the job.

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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#439 - 2012-10-24 20:39:49 UTC
Quote:
I think that is too large a buffer. It should be no more than 1 or 2 plexes at most as a decently sized fleet shooting up an I-HUB doesn't really take all that long to finish the job.


I agree. A very slim buffer creates a sense of urgency in flipping the system and forces the people flipping the system to maintain control of the plexes long enough for the buster fleet to finish the job.
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#440 - 2012-10-24 20:48:55 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
I think that is too large a buffer. It should be no more than 1 or 2 plexes at most as a decently sized fleet shooting up an I-HUB doesn't really take all that long to finish the job.


I agree. A very slim buffer creates a sense of urgency in flipping the system and forces the people flipping the system to maintain control of the plexes long enough for the buster fleet to finish the job.


Which arguably reduces blobbing as it can become more efficient/necessary to split your force. If you have larger ships shooting the hub and the other side start running down a minor plex, you would need to split off your smaller ships to go deal with the threat. But if they have to complete 5 plexes then you probably have at least an hour to finish off the hub before you need to worry about it.

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