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Dev Blog: Fast Forward

First post First post
Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#401 - 2012-10-24 12:13:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Hans had made a suggestion at one point that PvP kills pay out at the max multiplier regardless of current faction tier to reward pewpew, any word on that possibility?


Any word on this?


It's an idea that we've considered closely but shelved for now, with the option of revisiting it. At this time we're planning on making the scaling affect all LP gains consistently.


MEGABUMMER, FOZZIE! Evil

I understand the team's reluctance to pay people to lose, essentially - but this just penalizes the one activity that has been claimed will attract new pilots to the underdog in the first place. We've already seen that datacore prices are not really going to be a long-term balancing factor, and the nasty side effect of ending LP price spiking is that you also remove the type of profit that attracted groups like Nulli Secunda to the Amarr. This leaves us with the only type of players interested in enlisting with the underdog being groups like Agony, Fweddit, and Mawr Tears who came for the PvP and the challenge of fighting from a corner, and it essentially penalizes them for participating in the one activity they came to participate in, through no fault of their own. I think its a tremendous missed opportunity for recruitment.

I appreciate you following up with me on this though, and I seriously hope the team keeps an open mind about changing this. Expect to hear about it from me at the summit again, if there hasn't been a change of heart in the mean time.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

roigon
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#402 - 2012-10-24 12:14:24 UTC
As someone who often goes out solo looking for frig v frig fights I don't like the idea of showing the plex timer system wide at all. I'd be ok with showing if someone is in a plex or not. It's already possible to do this via the d-scan, I don't see any reason why something special should be made to show if someone is in a plex, but I also don't really object to it.

But by showing the timer you are effectively giving away the position of the person inside the plex. (whether or not he is on the button or not). That's just silly. Please don't do that.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Hans had made a suggestion at one point that PvP kills pay out at the max multiplier regardless of current faction tier to reward pewpew, any word on that possibility?


Any word on this?


It's an idea that we've considered closely but shelved for now, with the option of revisiting it. At this time we're planning on making the scaling affect all LP gains consistently.


Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#403 - 2012-10-24 12:31:20 UTC
roigon wrote:
Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?

Yes, replacing the old system where they would get the same LP but the higher tier player would get more value for that LP.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#404 - 2012-10-24 12:40:47 UTC
roigon wrote:
Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?

That is the way I understand the modifier, it is basically applied whenever LP is awarded .. some doubts as to whether it applies to defensive LP but see no reason for it not to given the way it is done.

"Winners" must be given every advantage so that they can be used as a beacon of hope for any who might follow! (read: lets all pile into whatever militia comes out on top).
Bad Messenger wrote:
Quote:
A cap on Victory Points in Factional Warfare systems has been implemented. At this time the cap is 100 VPs past whatever threshold is needed to make a system vulnerable.

Where is that quote from, better not be legit or defending bunkers becomes even more futile unless one has a blob on stand-by (bust fleets only roll when numbers are present, because *ugh.EHP.grind*).
100 VP is what, a medium plex? So one is looking at a minimum of 15 minutes if plexes are to be used to deny a bunker bust . 15 minutes just happens to be the average time it takes to drop a bunker with todays tier3 BC swarms and/or 1-2 dread drops.

This months (and previous) theme as dictated by my brain: Blanket incentives in FW is BAD.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#405 - 2012-10-24 12:44:01 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

100 VP is what, a medium plex? So one is looking at a minimum of 15 minutes if plexes are to be used to deny a bunker bust . 15 minutes just happens to be the average time it takes to drop a bunker with todays tier3 BC swarms and/or 1-2 dread drops

100 VP is 5 plexes.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

roigon
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#406 - 2012-10-24 13:04:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
roigon wrote:
Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?

Yes, replacing the old system where they would get the same LP but the higher tier player would get more value for that LP.


But the old system was one with a delayed promise. i.e. you made LP's just as fast as the other guy and maybe someday they would be worth something and that would be a bonus.

But now the system becomes direct, and every action you take where you would get LP you get incentivised to do that action for the winning side.

There is obviously some self-balancing in the market where for instance minmatar LP is worth less then amarr LP trough supply and demand. But that's a secondary effect. On the face of it any player who looks into FW will see that they get more LP from joining the winning side then for joining the losing side.

Even for people who are just interested in PvP, the system is essentially telling them to join the winning side.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#407 - 2012-10-24 14:12:24 UTC
could the message after finishing a plex mention how much % you contributed to contesting/decontesting a system? The animation of that contesting bar makes it very hard to figure out what actually happened (not to mention that this thing is still buggy and always disappears when you need it most).

VPs are currently somewhat of an "implementation detail". They are mentioned from time to time but you can basically ignore them entirely. A common question of new players is however how much a singe plex contributes to system contesting state or how many of them you need to reach something. That updated message would probably solve that.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#408 - 2012-10-24 14:40:36 UTC
roigon wrote:
But the old system was one with a delayed promise. i.e. you made LP's just as fast as the other guy and maybe someday they would be worth something and that would be a bonus.

But now the system becomes direct, and every action you take where you would get LP you get incentivised to do that action for the winning side.

There is obviously some self-balancing in the market where for instance minmatar LP is worth less then amarr LP trough supply and demand. But that's a secondary effect. On the face of it any player who looks into FW will see that they get more LP from joining the winning side then for joining the losing side.

Even for people who are just interested in PvP, the system is essentially telling them to join the winning side.


My point exactly. It just seems rather arbitrary to apply the modifier across the board when it could be used to facilitate the one really attractive reason to join the underdog. It's not like we're even asking for an advantage for losing, simply equality in rewards on the one recruiting tool the disadvantaged militia has going for it. I think its a very reasonable compromise between those of us in the player community than have asked for an elastic system and the design team which leans more towards a darwinian set of mechanics.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#409 - 2012-10-24 15:30:42 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I completely understand not wanting to "dumb the game down", and not wanting to kill scouting as a necessary fleet role, and having a plex timer visible on overview doesn't remove the need to have players seeing where the enemy is and in what ships.


You are a moron and biased but hey, what else is new. Having plex timers show up will simply tell the other side "We have enough time to gather blob for this plex" as needed without them having to risk a scout or fight in less than optimal situation since they wont know how much time is left.

A timer tells you very little about the situation, just as it doesn't tell the tale when mustering to defend a POS coming out of reinforced.

While it is true that you will know which plex (or plexes) are being attacked, you will not know crucial information such as "Are the enemy ships all on the button, or are most of them at range from the beacon?" "Are they all in this system, or are there more of them next door?"

It's those little, important details that can get you killed. Smile

More importantly, it makes it more likely that an attempt will be made to stop the count down with force, which is rather the whole point.


Timer tell to your plexing alt that there is enough time to enter plex and ***** half of lp, and when timer is moved to landing point you can do it without any risk especially when no one can tackle you on plex gate before entering it.

Excellent way to make one reason more to not plex at all with anything else than 1day griefing alts.


Ahhh, so you aren't really concerned with PVP at all. Your only concern is that you might have to share the LP you farm Big smile

I think that is just something the farmers are going to have to work out on their own, just like they do now. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#410 - 2012-10-24 15:34:10 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.

Intel should cost something.

D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.

Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.

This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas).


If you are worried about being within the enemies D-scan range, why would you not D-scan with a cloaked vessel?

Also, after the buttons are moved you really won't be able to send a scout in to check the timer as he'll be in the enemy fleets lap.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2012-10-24 15:38:56 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Lots of stuff


Well, I still see some potential problems, mainly in the area of getting enough LP to raise system tiers. But, at this point I don't think its going to be fair to critique things until we actually see it in play.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#412 - 2012-10-24 15:39:13 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.


You just forgot the thing that there is no reason to shoot bunkers anymore because you removed rewarding phase.

How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?


Before the patch the Amarr were at roughly 2%.

Today they are at 19.5%.

Apparently the motivation in there.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#413 - 2012-10-24 16:00:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.


You just forgot the thing that there is no reason to shoot bunkers anymore because you removed rewarding phase.

How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?


Before the patch the Amarr were at roughly 2%.

Today they are at 19.5%.

Apparently the motivation in there.


amarr / minmatar area has only 70 systems when gallente/caladri has 101 systems so shooting 20 systems affects lot of more in amarr/minmatar than in gallente/caldari

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#414 - 2012-10-24 16:02:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.

Intel should cost something.

D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.

Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.

This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas).


If you are worried about being within the enemies D-scan range, why would you not D-scan with a cloaked vessel?

Also, after the buttons are moved you really won't be able to send a scout in to check the timer as he'll be in the enemy fleets lap.


So that's a reason to just give the intel away?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#415 - 2012-10-24 16:08:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ahhh, so you aren't really concerned with PVP at all. Your only concern is that you might have to share the LP you farm Big smile

I think that is just something the farmers are going to have to work out on their own, just like they do now. Blink


Yeah sorry, but prevention of LP theft is secondary to providing maximum pew potential. I'd much rather CCP address that issue by investigating a split-rewards Incursion-style system like Pinky Feldman suggested in his Mittani.com article*, so that not only is LP theft reduced but small gang work isn't penalized, either.

*Meaning that maybe up to 5 people could run a plex and receive equal reward, than it would taper off and split up as the fleet size grew. I'm not necessarily suggesting that LP be only doled out after the whole system is taken.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#416 - 2012-10-24 16:11:54 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.


You just forgot the thing that there is no reason to shoot bunkers anymore because you removed rewarding phase.

How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?


Before the patch the Amarr were at roughly 2%.

Today they are at 19.5%.

Apparently the motivation in there.


amarr / minmatar area has only 70 systems when gallente/caladri has 101 systems so shooting 20 systems affects lot of more in amarr/minmatar than in gallente/caldari


Shooting structures is the only way to raise your tier, which is considerable motivation... particularly if your faction is only at Tier 1 the way the bonuses are laid out.

Your comment about needing to shoot 80 structures in 24 hours makes little, if any, sense.... unless you are fixated with being able to spike quickly to cash out, which is something to be avoided for obvious reasons.

The difference in the number of systems could stand to be looked at yes, as well as the layout of those systems for Minmatar/Amarr. However your statement does nothing to support your premise that nobody will be motivated to take systems, as obviously they are. Mostly because your average pilot in the militia's, contrary to popular belief, are not idiots.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#417 - 2012-10-24 16:16:15 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ahhh, so you aren't really concerned with PVP at all. Your only concern is that you might have to share the LP you farm Big smile

I think that is just something the farmers are going to have to work out on their own, just like they do now. Blink


Yeah sorry, but prevention of LP theft is secondary to providing maximum pew potential. I'd much rather CCP address that issue by investigating a split-rewards Incursion-style system like Pinky Feldman suggested in his Mittani.com article*, so that not only is LP theft reduced but small gang work isn't penalized, either.

*Meaning that maybe up to 5 people could run a plex and receive equal reward, than it would taper off and split up as the fleet size grew. I'm not necessarily suggesting that LP be only doled out after the whole system is taken.

I don't think many people would have a problem with that.

Perhaps it would be easier to keep straight (if this were done) with a cap based on the size of the plex. 1 pilot max for rookie, 2 pilots for small, etc. before diminishing returns kicks in.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#418 - 2012-10-24 16:18:52 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.

Intel should cost something.

D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.

Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.

This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas).


If you are worried about being within the enemies D-scan range, why would you not D-scan with a cloaked vessel?

Also, after the buttons are moved you really won't be able to send a scout in to check the timer as he'll be in the enemy fleets lap.


So that's a reason to just give the intel away?

As I said before, I'm not the biggest fan of free intel but until a workable alternative to the current local chat/D-scan/probes system is brought in I can certainly live with the miniscule amount of extra intel provided by having the timer visible if it will encourage more combat in the sites.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#419 - 2012-10-24 16:20:24 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
So that's a reason to just give the intel away?


It's not like its difficult info to obtain if you're in the system. Anyone who knows how to D-scan can figure this out by process of elimination. Delaying the location of the plexer only affords them time to escape, and I want the fight to actually happen as often as possible, even if it means saving the scout a few extra scan passes. I'm very serious about escalating the level of PvP risk for those that want to run plexes, and very serious about making it easier to find things to kill in a timely fashion.

If you're not using D-scan, its still stupid to blindly warp into the plex just because you see the timer open. You have no idea what's waiting for you on the inside. It could be a solo frigate, or a tornado fleet. Scouts are still just as essential for optimum security and successful plex capture, all the visible timer does is remove the buffer of safety that the process of elimination provides for those that want to flee at the first sign of danger. Its the exact same reason for moving the timer to the warp-in. Removing the 70km travel burn to reach your destination isn't dumbing the game down, its removing a buffer of safety for those that have no interest in pew.

In the end, skilled pilots will still be able to make "tactical retreats" (while forfeiting the LP as the timer rolls back) even with both a visible timer and the warp-in at zero. You'll just have to be much much more diligent about scanning or better yet, combine your plexing efforts with friends in-system and distribute the workload of handling battlefield intelligence.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#420 - 2012-10-24 16:30:34 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I agree that 133% would be too high for the cap once it is released. We just chose that as a quick reduction for this release that balanced the desire for one side to try to take systems while the other side attempts to dplex in order to defend them. It gives both sides of each warzone a chance to respond to vulnerable systems.


You just forgot the thing that there is no reason to shoot bunkers anymore because you removed rewarding phase.

How to make people who got ****** hard by CCP motivated to shoot about 80 structures in 24h without reward?


Before the patch the Amarr were at roughly 2%.

Today they are at 19.5%.

Apparently the motivation in there.


amarr / minmatar area has only 70 systems when gallente/caladri has 101 systems so shooting 20 systems affects lot of more in amarr/minmatar than in gallente/caldari


Shooting structures is the only way to raise your tier, which is considerable motivation... particularly if your faction is only at Tier 1 the way the bonuses are laid out.

Your comment about needing to shoot 80 structures in 24 hours makes little, if any, sense.... unless you are fixated with being able to spike quickly to cash out, which is something to be avoided for obvious reasons.

The difference in the number of systems could stand to be looked at yes, as well as the layout of those systems for Minmatar/Amarr. However your statement does nothing to support your premise that nobody will be motivated to take systems, as obviously they are. Mostly because your average pilot in the militia's, contrary to popular belief, are not idiots.



caldari had about 80 systems vulnerable ready to shoot before patch, but now systems are turning to contested and no one is anymore attack plexing because it is not profitable on anyway for a long time.

If you think how much is 80 structures to shoot it is more than goons have shot in this month, so i bet if you go to any alliance and ask them to shoot 80 structures in 24h without warning with sub capital fleet they would be in trouble, also militia is not big alliance where leader just can order things to happen.

CCP was intentionally making patch wihtout time to adapt to make sure that minmatar and gallente will have good start to new system with all alts farming defence lp and leaving them with most systems.