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Moderation discussion thread

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#341 - 2012-11-23 23:06:31 UTC
There you go ISD 40.
Any mean words removed from thread.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#342 - 2012-11-24 07:23:45 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you have an issue with how it was handled, feel free to file a petition, again.
Funny you should mention that. Although I have received two have responses to "petitions" in the last week in relatively reasonable time (cookie cutter responses though), I raised a "petition" before that over ten days ago that I am still waiting for a reply to.

My biggest concern here is the fact that the same people that moderate here are the points of escalation for forum issues. This is not what I would consider good practice with regards to separation of duties and transparency.

Without being specific that outstanding "petition" I am talking about is about a post made by the CCP employee who handles forum issue escalations. You tell me if that sounds right?

On that basis I ask why do internal affairs not look at forum matters as it would seem appropriate given the current arrangements.

One would hope that IA are not completely overwhelmed with issues of corrupt actions 24/7?
Must be getting on two weeks since I sent in my "petition".

It and questions in this thread on transparency and seperation of duties still not addressed.
Vince Snetterton
#343 - 2012-11-25 08:15:34 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you have an issue with how it was handled, feel free to file a petition, again.
Funny you should mention that. Although I have received two have responses to "petitions" in the last week in relatively reasonable time (cookie cutter responses though), I raised a "petition" before that over ten days ago that I am still waiting for a reply to.

My biggest concern here is the fact that the same people that moderate here are the points of escalation for forum issues. This is not what I would consider good practice with regards to separation of duties and transparency.

Without being specific that outstanding "petition" I am talking about is about a post made by the CCP employee who handles forum issue escalations. You tell me if that sounds right?

On that basis I ask why do internal affairs not look at forum matters as it would seem appropriate given the current arrangements.

One would hope that IA are not completely overwhelmed with issues of corrupt actions 24/7?
Must be getting on two weeks since I sent in my "petition".

It and questions in this thread on transparency and seperation of duties still not addressed.


Let me preface the thrust of my post with the following: As customers, we can simply walk away and stop subbing and giving CCP money, if we feel that that CCP has been infiltrated by a segment of the population that gains great pleasure causing pain for another segment of the population, and we have reached a breaking point.

Granted, I am sure many people that feel they are being attacked, and feel immense frustration and sadness, only do so because they have invested countless hours and emotional capital into the game. But eventually, those people have to make a decision as to whether they will accept the degradation of the game, or walk away. It is extremely unlikely that CCP will reverse their current internal decision making trends until the subscription rate falls in a significant way.

Now the thrust of my post:

Beautiful system CCP has set up. huh?
Completely circular, and impregnable.
CCP reps like Verone can say anything they like, and state that the petition system works, but the non-CCP employee is not allowed to discuss the petition system on threat of a perma-ban.

I am not suggesting collusion and false representation by any dev, or employee of CCP. That would be just wrong, and probably a bannable offense.

But regarding the Internal Affairs department, they are as nebulous as the petition system. There are zero ways to prove if the ISD, CCP devs, and the IA dept are not all the same group of people sharing the same floorplate.

But we have to remember, this is not some fascist regime like the many that exist today or have existed in the past 1000 years of human organization. This is a company. Now, numerous studies have compared the behaviour of countries and sociopaths, and the parallels are staggering. Have a gander at this short trailer. http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=46 Ultimately, it is utterly irrelevant that a corporation may exhibit sociopathic tendencies, and any corporation is defined by the the actions of its employees, whether paid or not.

The people making the decisions for CCP can do whatever they like, until there is a significant economic change. A corporation's supposedly sole purpose is to make profits. If people feel that the forum moderation team have been taken over by a group of like-minded people working together to wipe out all opposition to an agenda that the moderators have, well the only option the player who feels oppressed has is to walk away from the game, and lower those profits. If enough people do that, well then, there is a chance the current decision makers will be removed and a different group with a different set of agendas may take over.
CCP Falcon
#344 - 2012-11-25 14:35:17 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:


Let me preface the thrust of my post with the following: As customers, we can simply walk away and stop subbing and giving CCP money, if we feel that that CCP has been infiltrated by a segment of the population that gains great pleasure causing pain for another segment of the population, and we have reached a breaking point.

Granted, I am sure many people that feel they are being attacked, and feel immense frustration and sadness, only do so because they have invested countless hours and emotional capital into the game. But eventually, those people have to make a decision as to whether they will accept the degradation of the game, or walk away. It is extremely unlikely that CCP will reverse their current internal decision making trends until the subscription rate falls in a significant way.

Now the thrust of my post:

Beautiful system CCP has set up. huh?
Completely circular, and impregnable.
CCP reps like Verone can say anything they like, and state that the petition system works, but the non-CCP employee is not allowed to discuss the petition system on threat of a perma-ban.

I am not suggesting collusion and false representation by any dev, or employee of CCP. That would be just wrong, and probably a bannable offense.

But regarding the Internal Affairs department, they are as nebulous as the petition system. There are zero ways to prove if the ISD, CCP devs, and the IA dept are not all the same group of people sharing the same floorplate.

But we have to remember, this is not some fascist regime like the many that exist today or have existed in the past 1000 years of human organization. This is a company. Now, numerous studies have compared the behaviour of countries and sociopaths, and the parallels are staggering. Have a gander at this short trailer. http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=46 Ultimately, it is utterly irrelevant that a corporation may exhibit sociopathic tendencies, and any corporation is defined by the the actions of its employees, whether paid or not.

The people making the decisions for CCP can do whatever they like, until there is a significant economic change. A corporation's supposedly sole purpose is to make profits. If people feel that the forum moderation team have been taken over by a group of like-minded people working together to wipe out all opposition to an agenda that the moderators have, well the only option the player who feels oppressed has is to walk away from the game, and lower those profits. If enough people do that, well then, there is a chance the current decision makers will be removed and a different group with a different set of agendas may take over.


You do bring up a valid point, and as such I'd like to respond to this and perhaps shed some light.

I can tell you flat out that Internal Affairs take their jobs, and their roles at CCP very seriously. Internal Affairs was formed specifically to ensure that everything at CCP is done with a fair and unbiased viewpoint. Their work is outstanding and frankly, given the sensitive nature of EVE, its game environment and its economy, if any developer does step out of line, then we fully expect Internal Affairs to become involved.

As for myself personally, when I came to join CCP I accepted the fact that I would never fully shake off my old player identity given how well known I was as a player from working on so many Alliance Tournaments and attending so many player gatherings and Fanfests. In fact, I was outed as a former player within 20 minutes of my first forum post by you all. Smile

To break it down though, since I got here I've been branded an alliance sympathizer by their enemies, and hater by the alliance themselves. This has happened for over half a dozen alliances so far. I've also been branded a hater of highsec and PvE, yet for the entire time I've played EVE I've been a mission runner, investor and a manufacturer on the side to fund my PvP habits.

The issue that prominent players have when they come to CCP is that they're always shadowed by the reputation their built as players, and people immediately attempt to scream bias as soon as something is done that they don't agree with.

For me personally, I am no longer the CEO of the Corporation I created and ran for seven years, I am no longer a pirate, and I am no longer associated in game with the people that I used to fly with. That chapter of my EVE life is behind me, including all the work on building ingame reputation and friendships for the last ten years which is now null and void.

That is the choice I made and the price that I paid to come work for such an awesome Company.

The key word here is "work". Everyone at CCP loves their job, in fact I know quite a few that see creating and shaping EVE Online as a hobby that they love and just so happen to be lucky enough to be able to be paid for.

I think that a lot of people tend to forget that while we love our jobs, and come to the forums, run live events, and speak with people ingame for fun and community engagement, this is also our livelihood and behind the fun and games we have very serious rules, regulations and protocols that we have to follow.

I can say this because I've seen things from both sides of the fence. I've also been in the position for the last decade or so of being in the shoes of a player screaming bias and shenanigans.

We joke about internet spaceships being serious business, but in all honesty, getting to see things from the other side of the fence has really opened my eyes as to just how serious it actually is.

I think I can speak for the rest of the community team, and for ISD CCL in saying that we don't want to have to warn or ban people, in fact in all honesty I don't personally like having to do it because I love the fact that we have such a strong forum community.

In the same respect however there are lines that just can't be crossed, and rules have...

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Vince Snetterton
#345 - 2012-11-25 18:51:17 UTC
I was going to write another long-winded post tearing apart your reply, but then just threw up my hands at the futility of it.

Simply put, through your actions and comments in the past weeks, and the actions/comments of the ISD over the past months, and the actions/comments of the dev's the past year or so, I have absolutely zero faith in anything you say, or any assurances by any other dev, or any ISD member.

You will not shake my beliefs of what is happening within CCP.
But I do recognize that there is nothing I can do to stop it.

When recognizing the futility of fighting the sea change happening, I have two options:

1. Keep my accounts alive, accruing skill points, in the faint hope that someday CCP will come to it's collective senses.
2. Quit the game, and watch from afar.

I have not completely decided on which action I will take.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#346 - 2012-11-25 20:54:25 UTC
And as I've been warned for using quotes (though with what and for what is a mystery) I'll be refraining so people will need to slot in these responses to where they feel it is appropriate.

IA may be a fine group of professionals but my advice from them is they have no remit over forum moderation - so there is no recourse there.

I'm glad CCP employees like their work.

A view on forum moderation from an employee's perspective is fine but it still doesn't address the basic problems:

  • There is no transparency of process or apparent separation of duties.
  • The people moderating are the same people that handle "petitions" on moderation issues.
  • The people moderating are the same people that handle "petition" escalations on moderation issues.
  • Complaining to anyone else at CCP on the issue of forum moderation seems to be a breach of the EULA.
  • In my experience the "petition" process regarding moderation does not address any basic questions or enter any discussion on context or facts but simply replays the initial email notification over and over.
  • For some reason CCP staff feel they need to post in an incendiary tone that would find many customers warned or banned if they addressed a CCP staff member in the same way. That's not civil.


And this is not even raising the actual issue of quality of the moderation.

I think Vince's post is the nut of the discussion though.

EVE is immersive. For many the forum is an extension of that experience. Ruin the enjoyment of one, ruin the enjoyment of the other.
Borascus
#347 - 2012-11-25 23:09:15 UTC
In some ways the interpretation of the Forum rules requires too many wrong's before the right action is undertaken, forum rule 12 is a clear example.

There are hundreds of "posting in a ... thread" or "first" responses and rather than being deleted they are left.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2012-11-26 01:39:10 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

While I tend to be critical of ISD policies, I commend them for moving the 'Avatar/Like and get likes' threadnaughts to OOPE where they belong. While they were amusing for awhile, they have lingered far too long on the front pages of GD - over a year now.

Page 1 of GD is one place where people go to get up-to-date information of recent events in EVE. (The other place being themittani.com.)

Filling it with contentless social threadnaughts was a clear violation of well established rules - in an era where those rules are strictly enforced.

I commend the EVE Community team for doing what needed to be done and moving them to OOPE where they belong. The avid participants of those threads can now carry on their conversation in OOPE, without the rest of being forced to witness them on the front page of GD.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. Those threads were the only sane ones in GD where you could post without getting into a thread war / rage-naught.

They were fun and showed the lighter side of GD. Not to mention there wasn't any rage happening in those threads. Most everyone was neutral towards each other in those threads, except for a few killjoys.

I will say this, a lot has changed in the past 4 months that I've been offline and yet some things still remain the same. I see the old thread on this topic has been replaced with this new one.

My stance is still the same, I think the forum mods were doing a good job. They had a few little mistakes and problems but that was to be expected. What I saw was a few over zealous players try to dictate how forum moderation should be conducted, to the point of trying to have rude, trolling remarks be allowed. Using the excuse that Eve is a rough, tough game, etc.

Forums are supposed to be a place where players can get answers to their questions, not get a slap in the face while being told to go back to ......................... wow, I think you all know what I mean.

There's a big difference between politely disagreeing compared to being blatantly rude, disrespectful and antagonistic.

When I first started playing this game, these forums were a good source of info along with some light fun jesting. Over the years they quickly deteriorated into more than just a rage fest. I'm not going to go into specifics. We all know how it's been over the past couple of years. The introduction of the CCL with them trying to stem the flow of irate posting is and was a very good idea, not to mention a very daunting job, one that I would not like to do.

All I can say is keep up the good work and don't mind those players who get mad and say they are leaving. It's always better to get rid of a few bad rotten apples before the whole bunch gets affected.

DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#349 - 2012-11-26 02:10:38 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:

While I tend to be critical of ISD policies, I commend them for moving the 'Avatar/Like and get likes' threadnaughts to OOPE where they belong. While they were amusing for awhile, they have lingered far too long on the front pages of GD - over a year now.

Page 1 of GD is one place where people go to get up-to-date information of recent events in EVE. (The other place being themittani.com.)

Filling it with contentless social threadnaughts was a clear violation of well established rules - in an era where those rules are strictly enforced.

I commend the EVE Community team for doing what needed to be done and moving them to OOPE where they belong. The avid participants of those threads can now carry on their conversation in OOPE, without the rest of being forced to witness them on the front page of GD.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. Those threads were the only sane ones in GD where you could post without getting into a thread war / rage-naught.

They were fun and showed the lighter side of GD. Not to mention there wasn't any rage happening in those threads. Most everyone was neutral towards each other in those threads, except for a few killjoys.

I will say this, a lot has changed in the past 4 months that I've been offline and yet some things still remain the same. I see the old thread on this topic has been replaced with this new one.

My stance is still the same, I think the forum mods were doing a good job. They had a few little mistakes and problems but that was to be expected. What I saw was a few over zealous players try to dictate how forum moderation should be conducted, to the point of trying to have rude, trolling remarks be allowed. Using the excuse that Eve is a rough, tough game, etc.

Forums are supposed to be a place where players can get answers to their questions, not get a slap in the face while being told to go back to ......................... wow, I think you all know what I mean.

There's a big difference between politely disagreeing compared to being blatantly rude, disrespectful and antagonistic.

When I first started playing this game, these forums were a good source of info along with some light fun jesting. Over the years they quickly deteriorated into more than just a rage fest. I'm not going to go into specifics. We all know how it's been over the past couple of years. The introduction of the CCL with them trying to stem the flow of irate posting is and was a very good idea, not to mention a very daunting job, one that I would not like to do.

All I can say is keep up the good work and don't mind those players who get mad and say they are leaving. It's always better to get rid of a few bad rotten apples before the whole bunch gets affected.

DMC


Here friggin here, not often I agree with you but this is a rare moment of concurrence.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#350 - 2012-11-26 07:16:11 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
My best wishes to CCP Dolan, who was replaced by CCP Falcon for Sunday's tourney commentary.
I am certain that the 3300 people who watched it missed him as much as I did.

I hope he gets better soon.

*snip*


EDIT: Rumour content removed as per forum rules - ISD Type40.

Forum Rules wrote:


30. Rumor threads and posts.

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.

I'm confused out this one. How can something that was or wasn't shown be a rumor?

It either happened or it didn't.
Vince Snetterton
#351 - 2012-11-26 07:35:38 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
My best wishes to CCP Dolan, who was replaced by CCP Falcon for Sunday's tourney commentary.
I am certain that the 3300 people who watched it missed him as much as I did.

I hope he gets better soon.

*snip*


EDIT: Rumour content removed as per forum rules - ISD Type40.

Forum Rules wrote:


30. Rumor threads and posts.

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.

I'm confused out this one. How can something that was or wasn't shown be a rumor?

It either happened or it didn't.


What is there to be confused about.
Things that happened and are available on youtube and other digital storage locations, and witnessed by over 3000 viewers never truly happened once an ISD decrees they did not happen. Hope you read this before it is removed, before ISD 40 decides it never happened.

See, in the ISD world, a rumour is based on something that they construe as a rumour by their definition. Things that are digitally recorded and seen by thousands is not really a fact, or real, but a rumour. and therefore must be censored immediately. See my previous two posts in this thread, if they have not yet been deemed "rumour"

Also, this link on the Eve forum, is not a fact, but also a rumour. In it someone asks if CCP Dolan has been fired. But the entire thread, which CCP Soundwave responds in, is also complete rumour.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175724&find=unread
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#352 - 2012-11-26 07:50:35 UTC
Which match was it? It may still be on the YouTube feed.

I will take your position as true (as I have not seen the footage) but given what we know here.

1. How could the Moderator know within seconds of what you had posted that it was just a rumor, unless of course the Moderator in question had seen every second of the broadcast and had a 100% perfect memory of the entire day. In that case, I commend you sir.

2. Things not liked by the Moderator can be classified as rumor.

Given that thread in the Alliance forum (which I had already read by the way on the back of Jester's blogging) it seems like just the continued misapplication of CCP own "Rules".

Sorry CCP it's this simple.

Hypothesis based in some fact != Rumor.

Examples:

"Was a certain commentator removed because of a biased presentation style based on what I saw during the telecast?"

- That is a question, to be answered yes/no.

"CCP is facing ruin because of DUST514".

- That is rumor.

A message to the ISD. After recruiting, inducting and advising dozens, if not over a hundred forum moderators over the years I'll give you one of the first lessons:

You don't need to fight the company's battles. They are big enough, ugly enough and have enough people in the PR department to take care of that for them.

Unfortunately this is just a continuous train wreck.
Vince Snetterton
#353 - 2012-11-26 08:03:15 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Which match was it? It may still be on the YouTube feed.

I will take your position as true (as I have not seen the footage) but given what we know here.

1. How could the Moderator know within seconds of what you had posted that it was just a rumor, unless of course the Moderator in question had seen every second of the broadcast and had a 100% perfect memory of the entire day. In that case, I commend you sir.

2. Things not liked by the Moderator can be classified as rumor.

Given that thread in the Alliance forum (which I had already read by the way on the back of Jester's blogging) it seems like just the continued misapplication of CCP own "Rules".

Sorry CCP it's this simple.

Hypothesis based in some fact != Rumor.

Examples:

"Was a certain commentator removed because of a biased presentation style based on what I saw during the telecast?"

- That is a question, to be answered yes/no.

"CCP is facing ruin because of DUST514".

- That is rumor.

A message to the ISD. After recruiting, inducting and advising dozens, if not over a hundred forum moderators over the years I'll give you one of the first lessons:

You don't need to fight the company's battles. They are big enough, ugly enough and have enough people in the PR department to take care of that for them.



I will have to do some digging to find the precise timestamp, but in Saturday's matches, the Test alliance based team Something Else won a fight the majority of commentators did not think they could win. After the match, CCP Dolan aka Micheal Bolton, formerly of Test, raised his hands over his head in the traditional victory pose and was quite excited that the Test team won.

That is assuming I am not banned by before I find the actual footage and timestamp.
Because you know that providing actual footage is a rumour and trolling.
Vince Snetterton
#354 - 2012-11-26 08:41:19 UTC
I am having a nightmare of a time finding the actual fight.
OwnedTV has broken every match and every commentary down to a separate link, without any naming convention other than #1 to #38. I doubt I will find the link before I am banned.
Vince Snetterton
#355 - 2012-11-26 09:13:51 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
I am having a nightmare of a time finding the actual fight.
OwnedTV has broken every match and every commentary down to a separate link, without any naming convention other than #1 to #38. I doubt I will find the link before I am banned.


Found it.

http://www.own3d.tv/CCPGames/video/898376

Starts getting interesting at about the 6:30minute mark, and watch Dolan in the lower right hand corner.
Love the comment when he pleads for the Test guys to kill one of the Hun's ships.
Then watch is hands at around the 4:30 mark.
Then how excited he gets at the 2:30 mark and listen to his comments.

Of course, this link is pure rumour and I am trolling.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#356 - 2012-11-27 01:16:58 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I think I can speak for the rest of the community team, and for ISD CCL in saying that we don't want to have to warn or ban people,



So why exactly do you personally threaten people for suggesting changes that would decrease ban frequency by improving customer awareness to warnings?
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#357 - 2012-11-27 07:07:35 UTC
It's been fifteen days since I have raised a "petition" regarding the post of forum moderator and still no response from support.

This is the process that people are supposed to use as an alternative to complaining on the forums?

If so it does not seem to be working very well.

Fifteen days.
Frying Doom
#358 - 2012-11-27 11:15:28 UTC
I have a question I would like answered please in relation to

CCP Eterne wrote:
I've removed some rumor mongering from this thread.



This was on the Jita park forum, so what I would like to know is what came first the chicken or the egg.

Or in this case the forum rule against rumours and the fact it is a legit tactic to scam for votes.

As the rumours may be the back bone of a scam to weaken a persons opponents and no one would really know this unless they are the author of the rumours.

So what gets a higher priority, killing rumours or a free election process?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#359 - 2012-11-27 11:43:40 UTC
Experimentation is often a good thing when interacting with a large volume of people. How we gather feedback on issues, features or any other aspects of EVE Online are both interesting and fascinating.

We decided as a team to experiment on whether having an open discussion about moderation in general was a good or bad thing and tentatively decided to move ahead. Would players come back with positive ways to encourage engaging and non-toxic behavior? Would relevant and pertinent points be made which would encourage better discussion on EVE features and how we move ahead in the future? There was certainly a lot of metrics and information to be gathered.

Well this experiment has come to an end with this post. Players who had some input on forum moderation provided it early and this is something we will be digesting as a group. Several other players decided that this would be their bandwagon and pretty much stopped posting about any other EVE Online issue but this one. That was not what we were looking for at all. Players should be providing us feedback on how the EVE experience on Tranquility can be improved and nurtured. More and more in General Discussion we are seeing threads from players that are providing valuable and insightful feedback and for that we are thankful.

As of today, Tuesday, November 27 we will return to the previous method of discussing moderation issues and actions through the petition system only. You may submit a petition under the categories ’Other Issues’ and ‘Forums’. Please note that petitions may require extensive investigation before a reply is provided. It is also important to note that we will return to the previous method of removing forum moderation and bans discussion so threads of this nature will be removed. Repeated attempts to repost these threads will be in violation of the EVE forum rules and players who persist with this activity will have action taken against them.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that personal attacks against CCP Developers and ISD are not tolerated on these forums at all. Players who engage in such activity will have their forum privileges removed permanently across all accounts. If you have an issue with how a developer or ISD has interacted with you, once again we ask that you submit a petition under the categories ’Other Issues’ and ‘Forums’.

Thank you to everyone who provided feedback, be it good or bad, and we hope you enjoy EVE Online: Retribution coming on December 4.