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Moderation discussion thread

First post First post
Author
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-10-15 11:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Navigator
Dearest forum posters,

Since I joined the Community Team, I have become increasingly vested in the state of these forums of ours. For a desirable environment to exist here there needs to be a place to discuss our rules and the actions we take when those rules are broken.

There is a difference between discussing moderation in a general sense and discussing specific instances of moderation. The latter type should always be petitioned to us in the Community Team by selecting the Other Issues – Community category. This will allow CCP staff to review what has occurred and hopefully answer any questions that might have been raised by moderation actions. The URL to file petitions is the following:

https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/MyPetitions.aspx

The former type needs to have a special place where it can be discussed by us all. While it is true that we ‘own’ these forums, in the sense that we make the rules and ultimately control what content is on them, we still need to maintain some level of transparency so that we promote a positive environment to discuss things. You, the posters, then make these forums what they are. We don’t want to drive this place into the ground with explosive moderation that leaves no one alive.

In short, a place to discuss the broad strokes and general outlines of our moderation methods is required. That place shall be this thread. We will be keeping an eye on it and we would appreciate if all matters regarding the broad strokes of our moderation actions be contained to this thread.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#2 - 2012-10-15 13:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: War Kitten
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
First!



Warning points for users like this please.


Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first. :)


Stealth EDIT: Forgot the smiley :)

A little fun on the forums never hurt anyone.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2012-10-15 14:03:16 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
First!
Warning points for users like this please.
Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first.


This will be addressed, but as we we do not discuss warnings and specific moderation actions on our forum, we cannot comment further on this.

Other off topic posts were removed. Please stay on topic and constructive, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#4 - 2012-10-15 14:14:23 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
First!



Warning points for users like this please.


Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first.


I don't have an issue with any of this. It adds to the atmosphere of playfulness and reminds us Devs are human. I crack a smile when this happens.

If I have to tell you one thing about Forum Moderation, is to remember you are fostering a community, and in community there is more than serious business. People have to have the fundamental abilities to play and enjoy themselves, otherwise you kill everything that is wholesome about the human condition. We have enough **** to deal with on a daily basis to not be told we're bad people, bad humans, bad anything just because we come here for a little...

ShockedGASPShocked

Fun.

Where I am.

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#5 - 2012-10-15 14:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Well, to start with it would help if a thread about forum moderation (in general) actually listed the complete set of rules and guidelines supposedly used by the CCP and ISD moderators. For example, at the moment, based on personal observation of actual moderator actions, apparently it is ok to lock threads as duplicate without including a reference to the duplicated thread, or to provide a reference to the duplicated thread which is itself locked. :facepalm:

Cites to the above behaviors:
Locked as duplicate without reference to appropriate thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040255#post2040255
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039860#post2039860

Locked as duplicate, directing user to another locked thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039308#post2039308

(N.B. I already reported these posts a few days ago hoping they would be fixed.)

MDD
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#6 - 2012-10-15 14:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Well, to start with it would help if a thread about forum moderation (in general) actually listed the complete set of rules and guidelines supposedly used by the CCP and ISD moderators. For example, at the moment, based on personal observation of actual moderator actions, apparently it is ok to lock threads as duplicate without including a reference to the duplicated thread, or to provide a reference to the duplicated thread which is itself locked. :facepalm:

Cites to the above behaviors:
Locked as duplicate without reference to appropriate thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040255#post2040255
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039860#post2039860

Locked as duplicate, directing user to another locked thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039308#post2039308

(N.B. I already reported these posts a few days ago hoping they would be fixed.)

MDD


Hi MDD,

We have noticed this reports and i have sent out a reminder to the team to actually link to other threads when closing one for being a duplicate.

Locking and linking to a locked thread is a no go and if done somehow in error i will of course apologize for it. But you have to notice that the thread linked to was locked at a later date.

Keep using the report system for such infos, we are watching it.

Edited my post to be more clear after reviewing the case.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#7 - 2012-10-15 15:19:22 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
First!
Warning points for users like this please.
Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first.


This will be addressed, but as we we do not discuss warnings and specific moderation actions on our forum, we cannot comment further on this.

Other off topic posts were removed. Please stay on topic and constructive, thank you.



So why was my post removed? Because I gave the opinion that people who just post saying "First" and don't add anything to a discussion (in this case, what we should and should not moderate in general on the forum)?

It wasn't meant to be targeted at that individual poster, rather the idea that surely posts with "First" aren't helpful or needed. Warnings or deleting posts (or both) would be appropriate for first time offenders.

Of course if THIS is also discussing a specific moderation issue in your eyes I can always file a petition to get the answer, but I'd rather not as everyone has quoted my post anyway so I'm not too bothered about my point not being made.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#8 - 2012-10-15 15:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Locking and linking to a locked thread is a no go and was somehow done in error which of course i apologize for. But you have to notice that the thread linked to was locked at a later date.
Actually I had not noticed that the referenced thread was locked after the duplicate thread was locked. So Praetoxx if I've inadvertently and undeservedly painted you in an unflattering light, my apologies.

Eshtir, do you have any thoughts on how to avoid repeats of that sequence of events?

ISD Eshtir wrote:
Keep using the report system for such infos, we are watching it.
Good to know. Should I expect the reported posts to be corrected?

BTW, I don't want the original point of my post to be lost: Can we have, in this thread, a complete list of rules and guidelines which the moderators should be following? I say this because it is a bit hard to talk about moderation actions in general without that list, as I believe what would tend to happen is that absent the list, specific instances would be used (like I did above). Although I believe I was appropriately neutral and "meta" in this instance, you and both know that is highly unlikely to be the rule for other posters.

MDD
Pandorium9
Pandorium Prime
The CodeX Alliance
#9 - 2012-10-15 15:30:47 UTC
The system locks any thread that hasn’t had any replies in the last 90 days, but I see some posts being locked as necro.

At what point is it considered a necro post?

ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#10 - 2012-10-15 15:34:07 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Locking and linking to a locked thread is a no go and was somehow done in error which of course i apologize for. But you have to notice that the thread linked to was locked at a later date.
Actually I had not noticed that the referenced thread was locked after the duplicate thread was locked. So Praetoxx if I've inadvertently and undeservedly painted you in an unflattering light, my apologies.

Eshtir, do you have any thoughts on how to avoid repeats of that sequence of events?

ISD Eshtir wrote:
Keep using the report system for such infos, we are watching it.
Good to know. Should I expect the reported posts to be corrected?

BTW, I don't want the original point of my post to be lost: Can we have, in this thread, a complete list of rules and guidelines which the moderators should be following? I say this because it is a bit hard to talk about moderation actions in general without that list, as I believe what would tend to happen is that absent the list, specific instances would be used (like I did above). Although I believe I was appropriately neutral and "meta" in this instance, you and both know that is highly unlikely to be the rule for other posters.

MDD


Okay here we go.

We have to face it that errors will happen, i can not making promises that it wont happen again. But rather i will say that as a lead i have feedback function within the team. So evaluation of certain actions and providing feedback for the team is vital here. This means that mails are get sent out to the whole team, explaining the situation and offering a different approach. They might also end with the words "This is a policy".

I appreciate that you want to deepen the discussion with our internal guidlines and policies. First and above all, our most important tool set are the forum rules. The second tool set available to the team is a policy document which is bound to the NDA (that we as ISD have signed) and has therefor restricted access.




ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department

CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2012-10-15 15:42:55 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

So why was my post removed? Because I gave the opinion that people who just post saying "First" and don't add anything to a discussion (in this case, what we should and should not moderate in general on the forum)?

It wasn't meant to be targeted at that individual poster, rather the idea that surely posts with "First" aren't helpful or needed. Warnings or deleting posts (or both) would be appropriate for first time offenders.

Of course if THIS is also discussing a specific moderation issue in your eyes I can always file a petition to get the answer, but I'd rather not as everyone has quoted my post anyway so I'm not too bothered about my point not being made.


Your point was very valid but Phantom simply wanted to have the discussion and conclusion covered in one post.

Pandorium9 wrote:
The system locks any thread that hasn’t had any replies in the last 90 days, but I see some posts being locked as necro.

At what point is it considered a necro post?



Saying 'Bump' in a thread that has been inactive for 89 days does not contribute anything to the discussion. That is necroing and we don't like that. However, if someone wants to add something to a discussion that was going on 89 days ago it should not be locked. If that happens, it is a mistake and simply needs to be petitioned. We are only human and sometimes we make mistakes.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#12 - 2012-10-15 15:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
CCP Gargant wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

So why was my post removed?


Your point was very valid but Phantom simply wanted to have the discussion and conclusion covered in one post.



Fair enough!


Another minor gripe:

There are plenty of people in NPC corps posting in the COAD forums. Forum rules state this isn't allowed, are these posts being deleted and being warned (or their main being warned if they have used it to alt post)? If not does this need to start happening or does the rule need to change?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#13 - 2012-10-15 15:56:29 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Okay here we go.

We have to face it that errors will happen, i can not making promises that it wont happen again. But rather i will say that as a lead i have feedback function within the team. So evaluation of certain actions and providing feedback for the team is vital here. This means that mails are get sent out to the whole team, explaining the situation and offering a different approach. They might also end with the words "This is a policy".

Oy. Put your armor down; I'm not out for blood. Big smile I'm not so daft to think that extracting a promise of "never again" is likely or even worthwhile. I fully realize that moderation errors will continue to happen. I'm genuinely trying to have a conversation about what mechanics might help prevent a repeat of that sequence (because, as you acknowledge, a locked thread directing posters to another locked thread is undesirable). Perhaps I can ease your mind by throwing out the first obvious idea: before locking a thread, have the system report any other locked threads which refer (by URL) to the current thread. Obviously, this is predicated on the system having the ability to tell the moderator about those references. Obstacles: This ability probably doesn't currently exist, and it may not have enough importance behind it to get the manpower allocated to implement the ability. The automatic detection may not be foolproof. The moderators may fail to use such a report.

ISD Eshtir wrote:
I appreciate that you want to deepen the discussion with our internal guidlines and policies. First and above all, our most important tool set are the forum rules. The second tool set available to the team is a policy document which is bound to the NDA (that we as ISD have signed) and has therefor restricted access.

I will try to suppress my incredulity here; you're asking us to have a discussion of moderation in general without providing the current guidelines to discuss? Eshtir, I realize you are but a humble volunteer and this is not your decision to make. Please direct someone at CCP corporate (Gargant?) to look at this and re-evaluate whether keeping the current moderation guidelines under NDA is in the best interest.

MDD
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#14 - 2012-10-15 16:01:08 UTC
Please can you reconsider the 'no linking to killboards' thing? When sharing killmails, users have a choice between posting a long, hard-to-read killmail, or posting a short link to an easy-to-read website. I don't see any extra harm in linking to eve-kill instead of, say, evenews24. Posts that are a hyperlink only are contentless posts anyway.
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#15 - 2012-10-15 16:03:12 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Okay here we go.

We have to face it that errors will happen, i can not making promises that it wont happen again. But rather i will say that as a lead i have feedback function within the team. So evaluation of certain actions and providing feedback for the team is vital here. This means that mails are get sent out to the whole team, explaining the situation and offering a different approach. They might also end with the words "This is a policy".

Oy. Put your armor down; I'm not out for blood. Big smile I'm not so daft to think that extracting a promise of "never again" is likely or even worthwhile. I fully realize that moderation errors will continue to happen. I'm genuinely trying to have a conversation about what mechanics might help prevent a repeat of that sequence (because, as you acknowledge, a locked thread directing posters to another locked thread is undesirable). Perhaps I can ease your mind by throwing out the first obvious idea: before locking a thread, have the system report any other locked threads which refer (by URL) to the current thread. Obviously, this is predicated on the system having the ability to tell the moderator about those references. Obstacles: This ability probably doesn't currently exist, and it may not have enough importance behind it to get the manpower allocated to implement the ability. The automatic detection may not be foolproof. The moderators may fail to use such a report.

ISD Eshtir wrote:
I appreciate that you want to deepen the discussion with our internal guidlines and policies. First and above all, our most important tool set are the forum rules. The second tool set available to the team is a policy document which is bound to the NDA (that we as ISD have signed) and has therefor restricted access.

I will try to suppress my incredulity here; you're asking us to have a discussion of moderation in general without providing the current guidelines to discuss? Eshtir, I realize you are but a humble volunteer and this is not your decision to make. Please direct someone at CCP corporate (Gargant?) to look at this and re-evaluate whether keeping the current moderation guidelines under NDA is in the best interest.

MDD


No worries there. Im here for a very long time now and have been through much darker conversations. Lol

Your idea sounds good, but if we lock a thread for being a duplicate one, we already know there is an existing one. Attention

Regarding the policy document, the Community Team has it and it has their approval is all i can say for now. But you have my promise i will talk to CCP Gargant and the Volunteer Manager about this.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#16 - 2012-10-15 16:09:50 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
No worries there. Im here for a very long time now and have been through much darker conversations. Lol

Your idea sounds good, but if we lock a thread for being a duplicate one, we already know there is an existing one. Attention

Regarding the policy document, the Community Team has it and it has their approval is all i can say for now. But you have my promise i will talk to CCP Gargant and the Volunteer Manager about this.

Thanks. Just to be clear: I'm not asking for the entirety of the ISD policy document to be made public. Only the portions of it which refer to rules and guidelines for moderators' actions in the forums. It's difficult for us to make general comments about them when all we have are specific instances to cite.

MDD
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#17 - 2012-10-15 16:44:33 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

There are plenty of people in NPC corps posting in the COAD forums. Forum rules state this isn't allowed, are these posts being deleted and being warned (or their main being warned if they have used it to alt post)? If not does this need to start happening or does the rule need to change?


Hi,

Where we're aware of this, we do take the appropriate action.

If you see one we've missed, please use the report button and we'll take care of it as soon as possible.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Shandir
Indigo Archive
#18 - 2012-10-15 17:39:03 UTC
What does the community team think of the somewhat prevalant use of racial, homophobic and anti-semetic slurs being used here?

There's something messed up about the fact that 'jewing' is a common enough way to refer to PvE as a whole, and '*-***' equates to "I disagree with *" (Presumably mods can see the censored word)

Obviously you can't police the open forums where these terms build up popularity, but you could apply sufficient discouragement to them being used here.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-10-15 18:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
There are plenty of people in NPC corps posting in the COAD forums. Forum rules state this isn't allowed, are these posts being deleted and being warned (or their main being warned if they have used it to alt post)? If not does this need to start happening or does the rule need to change?


You can't post in CAOD if you're in an NPC corp, the forums won't let you. Either the posters were in a player corp at the time of posting and dropped since or the thread was moved from GD (something that is pretty annoying - NPC alt threads being moved to CAOD defeat the purpose of that rule)

Benny Ohu wrote:
Please can you reconsider the 'no linking to killboards' thing? When sharing killmails, users have a choice between posting a long, hard-to-read killmail, or posting a short link to an easy-to-read website. I don't see any extra harm in linking to eve-kill instead of, say, evenews24. Posts that are a hyperlink only are contentless posts anyway.


Also, this. There is a huge difference between a post like "look, here are killboard links of titans blapping frigates, please keep saying that titans can't track frigates" in a thread about titan tracking and "Ahaha look at your horribly fit Hurricane lossmail here, look how terrible you are" in a thread where such a remark is totally unprompted. The first example can't possibly be trolling because it's on-topic, it isn't particularly meant to berate anybody, it adds to the discussion at hand and it's not like the dudes who lost the ships in those killmails are going to feel ~offended~ because somebody linked their lossmail.

To say that this has been an existing policy based on the "no trolling" rule is simply insulting our intelligence - up until recently, this rule was never enforced outside of IGS and C&P, and how can killboard links, in and of themselves, possibly constitute trolling?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2012-10-15 19:34:44 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
No worries there. Im here for a very long time now and have been through much darker conversations. Lol

Your idea sounds good, but if we lock a thread for being a duplicate one, we already know there is an existing one. Attention

Regarding the policy document, the Community Team has it and it has their approval is all i can say for now. But you have my promise i will talk to CCP Gargant and the Volunteer Manager about this.

Thanks. Just to be clear: I'm not asking for the entirety of the ISD policy document to be made public. Only the portions of it which refer to rules and guidelines for moderators' actions in the forums. It's difficult for us to make general comments about them when all we have are specific instances to cite.

MDD


It's not a good idea in general to publish internal guidelines on how to handle the various rule violations. If that would answer all the questions and eliminate the grey areas, we'd totally do it. But in reality, going into too many specifics only tends to make things worse for everyone because of the endless complexity of human behavior and creativity. It's hard for us to internally define once and for all how to interpret every rule in the book for every scenario, so trying it clear it up for everyone will probably blow up the planet or something.

What we will do instead is to do our best to be consistent and fair, maintain good internal and external communication, and err on the side of leniency whenever we can without sending the wrong message.

P.s. Thanks for the needed reminder on posting URLs to existing threads when closing duplicates, appreciated 07

P.p.s. Here´s a picture of CCP Gargant after he heard something about the benefits of drinking and moderation

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard

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